Warner Archive Discussion Thread (FEEDBACK) - Page 53

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I've come to an acceptance; the Warners Archive is what it is. The price will take care of itself. They might even eventually take care of the coding problems and do progressive scans. But the burned DVD-Rs will remain, as will the lack of restoration. It's in fact the lack of restoration that's allowing them to release 190 titles in three months.

But I think the way it's been presented in the general media has been very misleading. From the PR this program got, the news stories, the commercials, one would thing these are regular Warner DVDs. They are not. The lack of restoration is proof enough they are not. One would also think it's being aimed at a general audience. It's not. Again, from the lack of restoration and the price point, it's aimed more toward a niche audience who is familiar with the movie being offered, and just wants a no-frills copy, as is; or someone who wants a copy of the movie now, and who is not willing to wait the years it'll take for a full restoration to be issued, if ever.

While the Archives might eventually replace their general offerings, I don't think that's Warners intention now. The restoration issue is the key sign. If we start seeing complete restorations ending up in the Archives, then it would be a different story; but we're not.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I think simply the caliber of the titles offered is the the key sign regardless of restoration. We're already seeing titles ripe for box sets pop up but once we start seeing the creme de la creme of their catalogs pop up in the Archives, titles like The Sea Wolf, Magnificent Ambersons, The Hanging Tree, the Devil's Doorway, Bombshell, etc, etc the fat lady will have already sung.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Depends on your definition of "creme de la creme". Case in point, I think "Devil's Doorway" is a fine film, but in my opinion it's not in the class of "The Magnificent Ambersons" or to a lesser extent "The Sea Wolf". Therefore, I expect it to show up in Archive just like "Above and Beyond".

It seems like WHV either "doesn't know how" or "isn't able" to release some really good movies from such film greats as Robinson, Garfield and Taylor through the normal retailer route. For the life of me, how was "Johnny Eager" or "Pride of the Marines" not released in prior film noir or war boxsets? I'm really disappointed in Warner and it might not be the WHV folks fault perse as the beancounters and economic conditions might be in play here, but I still have to voice my displeasure with how Warner has handled certain titles that deserved some proper film restoration or touch up.





Crawdaddy

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Might be in play? This is *all* about the bean counters and economic conditions, surely?

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

What really bothers me regarding the superb JOHNNY EAGER is that it is one of Lana Turner's very best pictures, and it was dumped here, along with all of her Gable films, while her very worst pictures (THE PRODIGAL, THE BIG CUBE) were given the deluxe treatment by Warners via that bizarre "Cult Camp Classics" series of releases which fortunately was not followed by other films in that series.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

What I am starting to do is looking at other films that were given regular DVD release and wishing it could trade places with something in the Archives.

If only Warner can start giving us some announcements of regular catalog DVD releases (which I know they eventually will)....at least this will temper my disappointment over some of these non-obscure titles being relegated to the Archives.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I've always wondered why it is such an obscure title. I mean, it was directed by Sidney Lumet. It was made after 12 ANGRY MEN, THE PAWNBROKER and FAIL SAFE. I've had Lumet plugged into my Tivo Wish List for years, specifically looking for the film since it is one of the few I have never been able to track down.

Glad it made it to the archive.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I've never seen "The Big Cube", but it's certainly a film whose reputation precedes it. As a big Lana fan, I too am disappointed that the Gable/Turner pairings were dumped in the archives. I agree that some of the films that have surfaced in it have really surprised me. For example, I find it pretty difficult to believe that the Lex Barker Tarzan films don't warrant a regular pressing. Didn't the last two Tarzan sets do well? There's no way in hell I'm paying archive prices, discount or otherwise, for these Tarzan films after only spending about $48.00 for BOTH of their last two Tarzan sets from amazon. Now I've been reading that TCM has quietly pulled the broadcast of the Barker films.......

Warner can just forget it, I'm not biting on this one.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Well, the digital bits is reporting:

... I'm really curious when Warner will be announcing Esther Williams Vol. 2., just for the fact that they said this set will be released this summer.

And by the way I wrote an email to Moviesunlimited about their hints in the last Hollywood Q&A section and I got this answer:

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

It seems to have fallen through the cracks. I don't know what it's 1968 box office was like or what kind of reviews it received. Into the late 1970s it was broadcast occasionally on local TV stations in NYC. It might have been perceived as being too much of a "New York" movie. AFAIK it was never released on VHS and as apparently only been rarely shown on cable.

One of the reasons I enjoyed it because it was partially filmed near my old Brooklyn neighborhood. It's a film I'd like to see again but I wonder if I'd enjoy it as much as I did 30 years ago, and it ain't worth $20 or even $15 to find out. We've seen a few posts here that say the same thing about various "wish list" type films. Tastes change over time.

Lumet also directed the superb Dog Day Afternoon (1975), a dramatization of a real-life 1972 Brooklyn bank robbery hostage situation. It was also filmed in Brooklyn.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Braverman was a box-office disaster, and the majority of its reviews weren't good. I've always liked it, though, and fear only for what sort of source material was used - it was a Technicolor film (printed by) and looked really great.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

A little off topic, but since we have been talking about Garfield (and the disappointment in seeing his films relegated to the Archives) I thought I would mention this:

For all you Garfield fans (like me) who have a multi-region player, Garfield's last film He Ran All the Way has just been released on DVD in the UK. DVDBeaver has a review of the disc (looks nice):

He Ran All the Way - Shelley Winters John Garfield Noir

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

And why would He Ran all the Way not be released in the US ? I don't understand why US films get released in other countries but not the US.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Thanks for the discount code, Crawdaddy. Just ordered PARTY GIRL, JOHNNY EAGER, BILLY THE KID, FOUR DAUGHTERS, and THE FALLEN SPARROW, a Taylor/Garfield festival.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I just got an email from warner archive saying the Tarzans are half price for all 5 as a single purchase.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

That's fantastic news. Excellent move Warner!

Now, if they can only do this for the Gable/Turner titles (perhaps along with Johnny Eager) and other titles that people will commonly buy as a group like the Garbo silents, THEN the archives will start looking a lot more attractive to film fans.

Btw - How are the Lex Barker Tarzans? I ask, because I've never seen any of them. I've seen all of the MGM/RKO Weissmuller films and really enjoyed them. The Barker Tarzans don't appear to have the same reputation, so I'm a little nervous about doing a blind buy on them.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I just noticed this earlier today when visiting the Beaver. Nice job posting that here!

It's funny how just about everything Garfield did at other studios has been released on proper DVDs, if we count the non-Region 1 release of HE RAN ALL THE WAY. Yet, his home studio, WB, has continually put his films on the back-burner to the point that it seems they've now missed whatever window of opportunity there was to put them out on proper, pressed DVDs.

Fox found a way to creatively package UNDER MY SKIN (Hemingway box set) and Sony got WE WERE STRANGERS out years ago. It should be said that these films are nowhere near the caliber of Garfield films in the WB vault, some of which are now, unfortunately, in the Archive. I really hope that WHV does something right and puts THE BREAKING POINT, truly a lost classic, in the next NOIR set where it belongs. Even with the discounts, it's going to be a long time before I cave and go for some of these Archives titles, and that's a big IF.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I liked these 2 the best:

Tarzan's Magic Fountain ('49) This one was Brenda Joyce's last Tarzan film as Jane.

Tarzan & the She-Devil ('53) This one had Raymond Burr as the bad guy and imo, one of the better Janes after Brenda Joyce (Joyce Mackenzie)

Lex Barker was my favorite Tarzan after the Johnny W films.

If you liked the RKO Weismuller's, you should like these Barker movies.

I just read Crawdaddy's post on the other Archive thread with a discount code in addition to the package price for these:


It looks like I'm finally going to buy from the archive site. After TCM apparently cancelled their listed broadcasts of these in July, this looks like the only way I'll get these for a while.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Thanks to DVDbeaver.com we can finally see why so many of these Archive DVDs exhibit compression artefacts.

They are being encoded at CONSTANT (rather than variable) bitrate, and are restricted to just 5 Mbps, which is insufficient given the fact they are very old masters.

Here is DVDbeaver's bitrate graph for The Big House:


And here is the chart for I Was a Communist for the FBI:


It is completely absurd that these discs aren't even VBR encoded, and have an arbitrary bitrate restriction of 5 Mbps when the later film could have an AVERAGE bitrate of around 6.6 Mbps and still fit on the disc, and The Big House could have an average bitrate of 5.9 Mbps.

BOTH of them should be encoded using variable bitrate so that the bitrate can increase for harder to encode sections, and decrease on sections that don't require anything near 5 Mbps.

These are both more signs of shonky public domain company style encoding.

EDIT: Fortunately Wichita, most likely a NEW transfer, is encoded using VBR:


But again, the average bitrate is 5.15 Mbps which is far lower than necessary. It could be around 6.7 Mbps to use the available disc space more effectively

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

They have a separate listing for the 5 Lex Barker Tarzans for $49.95


WBshop.com - The Official Online Store of Warner Bros. Studios: Warner Archive Lex Barker Tarzan DVD Set

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I'd be more excited about the Gordon Scott TARZAN films, but I don't know if Warner owns them or not.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I asked the WB reps about that in the recent chat. They said they own all the 1950s & 1960s Tarzan films, regardless of which studio originally distributed them to theaters in North America.

So, after the five Lex Barker films, Warner has:

TARZAN'S HIDDEN JUNGLE (1955, Gordon Scott / RKO)
TARZAN & THE LOST SAFARI (1957, Gordon Scott / MGM)
TARZAN & THE TRAPPERS (1958, Gordon Scott / Sol Lesser Productions)
TARZAN'S FIGHT FOR LIFE (1958, Gordon Scott / MGM)
TARZAN, THE APE MAN (1959, Denny Miller, MGM)
TARZAN'S GREATEST ADVENTURE (1959, Gordon Scott / Paramount)
TARZAN THE MAGNIFICENT (1960, Gordon Scott / Paramount)
TARZAN GOES TO INDIA (1962, Jock Mahoney / MGM)
TAZAN'S THREE CHALLENGES (1963, Jock Mahoney / MGM)
TARZAN & THE VALLEY OF GOLD (1966, Mike Henry / American-International)
TARZAN & THE GREAT RIVER (1967, Mike Henry / Paramount)
TARZAN & THE JUNGLE BOY (1968, Mike Henry / Paramount)

Plus, (presumably) the four "fake" Tarzan movies of the 1960s that were cobbled together from episodes of the TARZAN television series, starring Ron Ely:

TARZAN & THE PERILS OF CHARITY JONES (1967)
TARZAN'S JUNGLE REBELLION (1967)
TARZAN & THE FOUR O'CLOCK ARMY (1968)
TARZAN'S DEADLY SILENCE (1970)

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I wonder if they own the Ron Ely series as well. Hopefully that will get an Archive release.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Simon, regarding those bitrate charts, isn't a constant bitrate profile like that just a telltale indication that the source for the transfer is videotape and not film?

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

I don't think so, because even if it is a video tape format, it still ultimately needs to be converted to MPEG2 (DVD format).

Whoever is doing the DVD encoding is just setting the encoder to Constant Bit Rate 5 Mbps for the first two examples.

A Single layer DVD means there is a 4.3 GB restriction as is, why on earth would they WASTE some of the capacity of the discs by 1) restricting the bitrate to 5 Mbps and 2) using constant bitrate encoding which WASTES bits on easy to encode parts of the video (like insert shots where there is no movement)?

The Wichita example is different, because it seems that is a NEW transfer. Perhaps it was prepared with the intention of giving it a regular release? But still, whoever encoded that didn't know what were doing either, because the average bitrate is still unnecessarily low.

Warner doesn't release regular DVDs with a 5 Mbps average bitrate, they seem to aim for 6 Mbps as a minimum, why would they aim for 5 Mbps with these, when the film is only 82 minutes long?

And why the hell would they have these encoded using the inefficient constant bitrate method, when they wouldn't dare do that for a regular release? This is simply unnecessary cost cutting by having these discs encoded by people who don't know what they are doing.

EDIT: The reason it is obviously a cost cutting measure is because encoding in constant bitrate mode is FASTER, there doesn't have to be any analysis passes of the video so the encoder can determine the complexity of the material. Time is money; less time spent encoding, means more money saved.

But of course, the thing that is sacrificed is QUALITY of the end product, which is what the consumer is paying for. I would've thought Warner would want the highest possible encoding considering that for SOME of these films, these Archive DVDs will be the best consumer home video release ever made. It doesn't make sense to me to then cut corners on the encoding side of things.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Okay. I just know that every time I see that flat bitrate graph at DVDBeaver the comments indicate that it was sourced from a tape master. Conversely, I don't ever remember seeing anything noted as being from a tape master where there was a variable bit rate graph.

I thought maybe the two go hand-in-hand for some reason I can't figure out, like somehow the compression is already fixed in the conversion to videotape, or that using a variable bitrate from a tape source would make no difference. Or something.

More likely sourcing from tape and using constant bitrate encoding are just both symptoms of the same root cause: being cheap.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Got an e-mail saying the 5 Lex Barker Tarzan films will be selling for $50 which is 50% the individual price of $20 each. For that price I am in for my first Warner archive DVDs.

WBshop.com - The Official Online Store of Warner Bros. Studios: Warner Archive

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Thanks so much for that latest code. I got the Barker/TARZANs and a couple of other discs this morning, and the code made the purchase easier for my bank account to digest.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Well, shonky constant bitrate encoding from ancient analog master tapes often does go hand in hand! So you are right! It's just that it is usual public domain companies doing it, not a reputable company like Warner Home Video.

But remember, even a brand new transfer of a film ultimately gets recorded out to a digital video High Definition tape master. So it isn't the tape itself, it all comes down to how the master source is converted to MPEG2.

Exactly. It is just sad cos there is no need for it. I ACCEPT that this whole plan is essentially to make their old tape copies available available to consumers, so they can make some money out of these 'assets', but there is just absolutely no need for them to use an inefficient encoding method (especially when they only have 4.3 GB to play with as it is!)

The only explanation for using Constant Bitrate is to save encoding time.

For any lossy compression format Constant Bitrate will produce Variable Quality, whereas Variable Bitrate will produce Constant Quality. If it is done properly, that constant quality will make compression artefacts extremely hard to see or hear.

Re: Warner Archive Discussion Thread

Everyone must decide for themselves, but it seems like it would definitely be best to steer clear of any of these Archive titles that were encoded with constant bit rate. The price (even discounted) is just too high for such poor quality masters.

I appreciate reviews of these discs, especially ones with screenshots like at DVDBeaver.