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2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

post #1 of 38
3/13/09 at 6:14am
Thread Starter 
Hey all!

I thought you guys might find this interesting. While viewing the new PINOCCHIO release on Blu-Ray, I noticed both the remix and restored mono mixes are missing dialog when compared to all the previous video releases of the film. How this happened is anyone's guess, though my hypothesis is that the soundtrack was rebuilt from whatever separate elements they had (to enable better filtering and noise reduction) and a few things were accidentally left out.

I just thought you guys might want to know. I haven't finished watching the movie yet, so there may be even more sound elements missing. I'm sure you'll flame me all over the place, but here goes!

1992 release - Jiminy says "Right!" after Pinocchio says his name


2009 release


1992 release - Jiminy says "Look out, Pinoch!" (ms)


2009 release


Anyone else have any thoughts? We've heard this before, most notably on the 2006 NIGHTMARE ON ELM ST where music cues and sound effects were missing (this master is also shown on HDNET MOVIES and HD THEATER and was used for the Canadian Blu release - all with the same mixing flaws) and when screams and such were missing from the original TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, even from the supposedly restored original mixes.
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post #2 of 38
3/13/09 at 6:47am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
I just thought you guys might want to know. I haven't finished watching the movie yet, so there may be even more sound elements missing.
The "Right!" is the only bit that has been reported missing (there's a thread over in the HD section where this has problem been mentioned). I'm certainly inclined to think it's a mistake but there might be another explanation like it wasn't in the original and it was added to a re-release or a video release so I'm waiting to see if one of the many Disney-ologists out there can confirm that it was something that has always been in the sound mix.

Either way, Disney is way better than nearly every studio out there for issuing corrected discs so, if it's a problem, I'm hoping that there's a replacement offered at some point.
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post #3 of 38
3/13/09 at 6:59am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Were these clips intact on the original DVD release? You only mention the 1992 release.
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post #4 of 38
3/13/09 at 7:02am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Peterson
Were these clips intact on the original DVD release?
Yeah.
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post #5 of 38
3/13/09 at 7:13am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Both of those lines are also intact on the foreign language dubs, which leads me to believe it's probably a screw-up. It's been guessed over in the HD thread that they were dialogue overlays for the music track which were forgotten about during the restoration. It's odd that they're gone from the mono track as well...it would indicate that too is a reassembly of sorts.
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post #6 of 38
3/13/09 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H.
Both of those lines are also intact on the foreign language dubs, which leads me to believe it's probably a screw-up. It's been guessed over in the HD thread that they were dialogue overlays for the music track which were forgotten about during the restoration. It's odd that they're gone from the mono track as well...it would indicate that too is a reassembly of sorts.

EXACTLY - And why was this only mentioned over in the HD forum (which I rarely visit, though I have Blu-Ray). The exact same flaws are on the SD-DVD release.

Every video release has had these lines in them. The clips I posted were from the 1992 restoration (released on LD and VHS in 1993, and then DVD in 1999), though the 1985 VHS and LD releases also have the lines, as do the 2003 international restored DVD releases (the film was reissued everywhere but in the US in 2003 with a transfer remarkably similar to the new 2009 edition - different colors than ever seen before, etc.). Only this 2009 edition is missing lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
The "Right!" is the only bit that has been reported missing (there's a thread over in the HD section where this has problem been mentioned).

Well, I'm mentioning the other omission now, then. And I posted clips to prove it.
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post #7 of 38
3/13/09 at 8:20am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

This is great reading. Like the guys that used to go frame by frame on animation CAV LDs to find errors. That's how they found those frames with attachments holding up parts of the original King Kong while doing the stop-motion animation.
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post #8 of 38
3/13/09 at 3:42pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

It does bother me that those lines are missing. Some may say what's the big deal, but I'll just hold onto my DVD until they do it right--either through correcting the current Blu-ray, or in another 5-10 years when they reissue it again.
And this and Beauty and the Beast are my 2 favorite of all the Disney animated movies.
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post #9 of 38
3/14/09 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

What do you guys think of this scene, where Pinocchio's yellow shirt turns white, and then is splotchy white/yellow, and then yellow again?

Note that this did not happen in any of the previous releases. If this isn't a sign that the film has been largely processed and recolored, I don't know what is. Where is the quality control?

Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket

The clip is here:
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post #10 of 38
3/14/09 at 9:11pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

It's a very faded yellow. People will bitch about the slightest, most inconsequential things to further their agendas, won't they?
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post #11 of 38
3/14/09 at 9:24pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

"What do you guys think of this scene, where Pinocchio's yellow shirt turns white, and then is splotchy white/yellow, and then yellow again?"

I always thought it was the animators chose to animate the effect of that solo spot of theatrical lighting. . .
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post #12 of 38
3/14/09 at 9:30pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Martinez
It's a very faded yellow. People will bitch about the slightest, most inconsequential things to further their agendas, won't they?
Our HTF mission statement:

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We strive for as many good films as possible to be available on such high quality DVD's for both sale and rent. Therefore, we loathe infringements on author rights and oppose to the existence, promotion and sale of bootlegged products.

We like others to take pleasure in what they apparently do like. We will never post with the sole intention to spoil other's pleasure. On this Forum, we want to feel at home and make each other feel at home.

This is what we discussed here and though, it might seem like nitpicking to some of us, they are valid points. However, with that being said, I thought the BRD of this title looked and sounded great. It's not perfect, but I'm happy with my purchase and I hope more information becomes available to the inconsistencies pointed out about this latest release as to whether a mistake was made or not and if corrected discs will be made available to those that want them if any mistakes are acknowledged by Disney.







Crawdaddy
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post #13 of 38
3/14/09 at 9:45pm
Thread Starter 

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Here are some comparison clips. I apologize for the quality as I have to use Photobucket as the clips are automatically removed from YouTube when I try to upload them in a higher resolution there.

Note that the shirt stays yellow, and that the 2003 DVD clip is from the UK DVD as the US did not ever get this restoration on video (but the rest of the world did).

1985 Laserdisc


1993 Laserdisc / 1999 DVD


2003 DVD


Again, I have no problem with new, clean transfers and restoration. I'm not saying, "Let's go back to the 1985 Laserdisc!" No, not at ALL! But I want the original movie, not one that has been so processed and recolored as to be another creation altogether. Maybe on the next release we'll get an alternate angle with the restored film version without the recoloring and extensive filtering but with minor dirt/scratch removal - and with the slightest bit of original, natural film grain.
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post #14 of 38
3/15/09 at 2:53am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Our HTF mission statement:

We strive for the highest achievable quality (video and sound) to be recorded on DVD, to be sold and/or rented in a form free for consumers to use in their homes. We want to advance films to be represented as complete as possible and with their full image, as intended by the original creators, intact.
Crawdaddy

As at most a fringe Disney fan, but one whose other interests include audio and archival work I'm keenly aware that the omission of even one word of dialogue can make a difference.

Pinocchio was an important enough title in Disney's work for me to pick up the original home video release - in Beta.

If I were to upgrade, I'd want to be sure the upgrade was in fact an upgrade.
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post #15 of 38
3/16/09 at 1:24pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

It's getting complicated here. The missing bits of audio are included in the region B blu-ray (I checked it myself and it's verified by several others at UltimateDisney). I wonder what happened here.
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post #16 of 38
3/16/09 at 4:47pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

I have the British special edition from a few years ago.
There, Pinoc shirt is light yellow with a white collar all the way through the scene.
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post #17 of 38
3/16/09 at 4:49pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Borst
It's getting complicated here. The missing bits of audio are included in the region B blu-ray (I checked it myself and it's verified by several others at UltimateDisney). I wonder what happened here.

I will certainly be quite interested in hearing the explanation for this. If they used different source audio files, the question will then become why. If the answer has to do with the differences between regional releases they question then shifts to why there are differences in the regional releases and why they would involve audio changes.
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post #18 of 38
3/19/09 at 6:56pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

I came here wondering if anyone else had noticed these. I have this film memorized backward and forward. I probably watched it LITERALLY hundreds of times as a young kid. When I popped in this latest release, I noticed it immediately.

Unless this was somehow intentional (like, the original prints didn't have the lines or whatever), then I REALLY hope they fix this. I will honestly notice this every time I try to watch it.
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post #19 of 38
3/20/09 at 11:07am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZackR
I came here wondering if anyone else had noticed these. I have this film memorized backward and forward. I probably watched it LITERALLY hundreds of times as a young kid. When I popped in this latest release, I noticed it immediately.

Unless this was somehow intentional (like, the original prints didn't have the lines or whatever), then I REALLY hope they fix this. I will honestly notice this every time I try to watch it.
I don't understand your post! What lines?

I just bought the german region 2 Pinocchio DVD and the shirt changes from yellow to white. I checked with my DVD that I bought in 2001 and the shirt is always yellow. My initial impression is that the Platinum version has a much better PQ than my older version.

Exactly where is the missing audio? Is it also missing from the subtitles?
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post #20 of 38
3/20/09 at 11:19am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumnernor
I don't understand your post! What lines?

Did you read the first post in this thread? The lines are discussed there. It's lines of dialog, by the way, not scratch-lines - if that's what was confusing you.
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post #21 of 38
3/20/09 at 11:32am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Sorry if I was confusing. I was talking about lines of dialog.
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post #22 of 38
3/21/09 at 11:04am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffMc
Did you read the first post in this thread? The lines are discussed there. It's lines of dialog, by the way, not scratch-lines - if that's what was confusing you.

I did in fact read the first post. It doesn't state "lines of dialog" but rather "missing dialog" and "there may be even more sound elements missing". In that post due to old PC I was unable to play his examples and would like to know exactly where things are missing.

The post of ZackR mention about "the lines". It seem to imply he hasn't read the earlier posts. This thread also mentions about other problems such "Pinocchio's yellow shirt turns white" which I noticed on my region 2 SD. This was brought up by Chuck Pennington who started the thread. Since the Jungle Book with BR had "lines" problems, it was therefore unclear about ZackR. I would state "missing audio" rather than missing "lines of dialog.
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post #23 of 38
3/23/09 at 7:03am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

I compared both the Pinocchio that I bought in Germany 2001 with the German Region 2 version. I found that the PQ of the new version is much, much better than the 2001 version. Also with the new version, Pinocchio's shirt changes to white from yellow when the spotlight is turned on him.

In regards to the audio. It was difficult for me to hear "Right" on both but I think I heard a sound on both that could have been "right". Not heard on the new version was "Look out, Pinocchio!" which I did hear on my older version. The subtitles on my older version indicated both "Right" and "Look out, Pinocchio!" On the new version there were no subtitles!?? So were the subtitles redone from the audio??
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post #24 of 38
3/23/09 at 11:29am

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumnernor
I compared both the Pinocchio that I bought in Germany 2001 with the German Region 2 version. I found that the PQ of the new version is much, much better than the 2001 version. Also with the new version, Pinocchio's shirt changes to white from yellow when the spotlight is turned on him.

In regards to the audio. It was difficult for me to hear "Right" on both but I think I heard a sound on both that could have been "right". Not heard on the new version was "Look out, Pinocchio!" which I did hear on my older version. The subtitles on my older version indicated both "Right" and "Look out, Pinocchio!" On the new version there were no subtitles!?? So were the subtitles redone from the audio??

I hadn't checked the subtitles on the UK version before but I see now that the words are not there although they can be very clearly heard on the audio track. Like Alice in Wonderland it gets curiouser and curioser!

Incidentally, there is no smoking warning on the UK disc. I will, of course, be complaining to the Disney organisation about this in the strongest terms. It is disgraceful that UK purchasers are being denied this interesting and educational supplementary disc feature.
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post #25 of 38
3/23/09 at 12:46pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Sorry, but I missed this similar thread on this topic in the SD section.

Here is some information I posted on the topic in the HD forum:

Randy Thornton is one of the Executive Producers at Walt Disney Records (and a Grammy-winner, to boot!).

He has been involved in numerous restorations of the musical elements for the early Disney animated classics. At a different forum (of which he is an active member) I posted questions about the missing dialogue. This is his response:

Quote:
Unfortunately, I can be of little help to both questions.

First, I’m not involved with the Home Entertainment releases. I sometimes help in research, by finding and restoring the song demos and such. Recently, in the case of Sleeping Beauty, it was the elements I found to build the soundtrack album (in 1996) that prompted the studio to rebuild the audio for the new BluRay. If I’m involved at all, it’s usually in the historic element side of thing. I don’t know what was done on Pinocchio.

Second, the Pinocchio Soundtrack is the only Classic Soundtrack (aside from Fantasia) that I did not produce. I did assist in some research to help Michael Leon (the producer) find some elements and offer advice. But what I can tell you is similar to the situations in all of my own soundtrack restoration projects as well – most of the original separated elements no longer exist.

In the 1950’s there was a movement within the film industry to get rid of all the nitrate based film stock (it could spontaneously combust). When they began what I refer to as: ‘The Great Purge’, it was decided to only transfer “important” elements to the new Safety Film. In most cases, the separated elements – the vocals, the effects, the dialog, and the music elements were destroyed. They felt that the only elements necessary to save were the Composite (complete mix) for new prints over the years, and the M&E (the music and effects mix without vocal or dialog) for use in dubbing the films into other languages. They never thought that anyone would ever go back and remix a film – it was unheard of at the time, and why waste the funds.

Fortunately, they weren’t completely thorough. Some elements survived ¬- maybe bits and pieces, and sometimes complete songs. Every single soundtrack I’ve restored (except for Poppins and Jungle Book), were cobbled together from whatever elements I could find.

In the case of Pinocchio, I know that Michael and I found the Music Only elements. There were in mis-marked cans, and we assume that it was because of this that they survived The Great Purge. However, no vocals could be found. So we turned to the WDL record master that Tutti Camarata produced in the 1950s. It turns out that Tutti started producing the WDL soundtrack series just before the purge, so he had access to those long lost separated elements. Michael used that master as the source for the songs. It may have been when Tutti originally created those album tracks, when those lines went missing. That’s just a guess, but it seems likely.

Incredibly, as we were going through those mis-marked Pinocchio cans, we came across a treasure – in the very last can were several small reels of film. They turned out to be the separated music only, vocal, and chorus tracks for “When You Wish Upon a Star”. And if the fates conspired to only allow us to rebuild and restore one song in Pinocchio – I’m exceeding grateful that was the song!

I know, a lot of words just to say “I don’t know”, but there ya are.

Randy

So, his best guess is that it might be that the restoration team turned to a different audio source for the audio restoration of the film and didn't realize those bits had been excised. If true, if would be an interesting tale, but unfortunate.
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post #26 of 38
3/23/09 at 2:12pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas R
I hadn't checked the subtitles on the UK version before but I see now that the words are not there although they can be very clearly heard on the audio track. Like Alice in Wonderland it gets curiouser and curioser!

Incidentally, there is no smoking warning on the UK disc. I will, of course, be complaining to the Disney organisation about this in the strongest terms. It is disgraceful that UK purchasers are being denied this interesting and educational supplementary disc feature.

The warning supposedly is there. I haven't checked it myself yet, but it plays after the trailers, before the menu hits the screen. I thought it would play before the film starts, but that's not the case.
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post #27 of 38
3/23/09 at 2:25pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Borst
The warning supposedly is there. I haven't checked it myself yet, but it plays after the trailers, before the menu hits the screen. I thought it would play before the film starts, but that's not the case.

I hope you realise I wasn't being serious about complaining that the warning (as I thought) wasn't there?
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post #28 of 38
3/23/09 at 2:45pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Mike,

Interesting. Thanks for the post.
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post #29 of 38
3/26/09 at 12:53pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
So, his best guess is that it might be that the restoration team turned to a different audio source for the audio restoration of the film and didn't realize those bits had been excised.

Seems likely. Those dialogue asides were not part of the album version of the song I grew up listening to on LP. The team likely found a source of the song that they thought sounded better, without realizing things had been added when it was mixed into the film.
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post #30 of 38
3/26/09 at 2:45pm

Re: 2009 PINOCCHIO Release - What's Missing

Did a different restoration team work on the UK version than worked on the U.S. version? I have the UK version and the dialogue is intact.

Is it possible that licensing issues regarding the soundtracks have played a role in different audio being released in different regions? This strikes me as unlikely, yet I cannot think of any other explanation why the UK would have the "complete" audio whereas North America would not.
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