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post #61 of 109
3/11/09 at 1:34pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Are you taking it all the way thru checkout, Aaron?
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Pinocchio (Two-Disc 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition + Standard DVD+ BD Live) [Blu-ray]
$49.99 at
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post #62 of 109
3/11/09 at 1:37pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Sure am. Everything short of the "Place Order" button.

OK, this is definitely a glitch. I went back in, same thing. I clicked on "Super Saver Shipping," and the discount showed up! Then I changed the shipping address, and the discount went away again. I'm clicking back and forth now to try and get it back.
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post #63 of 109
3/11/09 at 1:42pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Clicking. . .clicking. . .clicking. . .
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post #64 of 109
3/11/09 at 1:43pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

26.98 is now dead
should be 36.98 if you still want both
EDIT: looks like Amazon killed the original/intended $10 off as well
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post #65 of 109
3/11/09 at 1:44pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

I'm not getting either discount now.
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post #66 of 109
3/11/09 at 2:02pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

This is upsetting news about Jiminy's response during "Give A Little Whistle" being omitted. Could it have been mistakenly added years ago, possibly from an alternate take? If not, this needs to be fixed.
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post #67 of 109
3/11/09 at 2:12pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Riley
1.) There's possibly a word missing from the soundtrack! In "Give a Little Whistle," the old dvd's soundtrack goes like this:

Jiminy: "And when your whistle's weak, yell!"

Pinocchio: "Jiminy Cricket?"

Jiminy: "Right!"

Jiminy's callback "Right!" is missing on the BluRay. The BR has two audio channels: one a modern "stereo" remix and one supposedly the original mono. I checked: the word is missing from both. The word exists on the old dvd, and also the original vhs tape, (from circa 1985). I think the exclusion or inclusion of that word depends on whatever source material they used to remaster this song. The word doesn't exist on old Disneyland records soundtracks. I've only ever heard it uttered on older home video versions of the film. (Not sure if it's on the more recent CD soundtrack recordings, but I'll check later). I'll leave it to the experts to tell us whether the word is even [i]supposed[/i/] to really be in the movie: that is, whether it existed in the original film prints or not.


This is problematic. I have listened to the song Give a Little Whistle hundreds of times while I maybe have only watched the film Pinocchio dozens of times. I have always heard Jiminy's response to Pinocchio's answer to the question.

I was going to do some investigating when I got home today...but here is a clip from YouTube (not sure of the original source) and you can plainly hear Cliff Edward's :Right!" at the :49 mark.

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post #68 of 109
3/11/09 at 2:41pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman
I'm not getting either discount now.
deal is now being reported as being live again ... YMMV
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post #69 of 109
3/11/09 at 2:55pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Yep, saw that on the Bargains & Deals thread and my mileage did not vary this time.

The official $10 discount ($37 for both sets) seems to have kicked in now.
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post #70 of 109
3/11/09 at 4:50pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

I noticed the missing "Right!" from Jimminy in that song too... but wasn't sure what the official "original" is supposed to be like because our only real reference as of late is a 1990's laserdisc master. My Disney-classics music collections have the same "Right!" as well but they could easily have been taken from the same sound master as the laserdisc.

This is a task for a real Disney historian to figure out... was it there in the original film? Was it added later? Or what it accidentally dropped during audio restoration?
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post #71 of 109
3/11/09 at 5:54pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

The 1985 vhs has the line as well. Here is what the souvenir book with the 1992 collector's vhs has to say about that sound restoration: "The first part of the process was to sonically bathe the existing magnetic composite masters, transferred from the original nitrate track in the 1950s. Next came the conversion of the existing monaural tracks to stereo. The original Pinocchio sond masters did not allow for separation of dialogue, effects and music, but the extensive research phase of the restoration provided a rare, separate musc-only track allowing work to proceed with a stereo mix."
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post #72 of 109
3/11/09 at 9:52pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

I have that booklet, too. It's too bad they couldn't add a music-only track on the BD. I guess having the soundtrack CD will do, save for the fact that the lyrics to "Little Wooden Head" are inexplicably gone on that CD.
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post #73 of 109
3/12/09 at 7:16am

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

One of the great music producers at Disney Records is a regular presence on another forum. I've already posed the question there to see what kind of response we can get.
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post #74 of 109
3/12/09 at 8:16am

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Thanks, Mike! Keep us posted.
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post #75 of 109
3/12/09 at 9:37am

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

This may end up being a situation like the Star Wars films - alternate takes or missing audio in different prints. It wouldn't even be that surprising for a film that has had as many theatrical re-releases as this one. It's no deal-breaker for me, but it will be interesting to see what the determination ends up being (if it's even ever publicly said).
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post #76 of 109
3/12/09 at 2:38pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
This may end up being a situation like the Star Wars films - alternate takes or missing audio in different prints. It wouldn't even be that surprising for a film that has had as many theatrical re-releases as this one. It's no deal-breaker for me, but it will be interesting to see what the determination ends up being (if it's even ever publicly said).

Disney fessed up when they accidentally left out some of the Aunt's off-camera dialogue from the "Lady & The Tramp" vhs. They're actually pretty open about these goofs when they occur.
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post #77 of 109
3/12/09 at 2:49pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Indeed they are, and they do correct them in a decent amount of time.
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post #78 of 109
3/12/09 at 2:53pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

I checked out the old R2, which already was restored by Lowry, supposedly, and looks a lot more film-like, by the way. It has the 'Right' from Jiminy.
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post #79 of 109
3/12/09 at 2:58pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
This may end up being a situation like the Star Wars films - alternate takes or missing audio in different prints.
That's what I was thinking too. Considering there's so many people out there that know classic Disney movies inside and out, I'm surprised that a semi-definitive answer hasn't come out yet.
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post #80 of 109
3/12/09 at 3:04pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

some speculation from elesewhere .....

Quote:
This is just an educated guess, but I wonder if it was part of the dialogue stems and was inadvertently mixed out of the song because the mixer wasn't anticipating any dialogue elements during the song.

could be
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post #81 of 109
3/12/09 at 6:27pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

95% of the time, I don't notice such audio alterations right off the bat (or at least can't pinpoint what's "off" until I compare it with an older version). This is one of the 5% that jumped right out at me, and I hadn't seen the film in years, either.

Looking at Mike's video post, that "Right" does sound like an overlay that wasn't recorded with the rest of the song...it's dropped in there pretty quickly while Jiminy's off-camera for a second. Maybe it was added later as a revision, or maybe the audio restoration somehow dropped it. The fact that it's absent from BOTH the audio tracks is pretty interesting, though. I too am curious to see what info turns up.
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post #82 of 109
3/12/09 at 6:53pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

more missing?

Quote:
Oh, and a big "thank you" to Chuck for pointing out that there is a missing vocal effect on both the 7.1 remix and the supposedly "original theatrical soundtrack" (restored mono): Jiminy Cricket's "Right!" just before "Take the straight and narrow path/And if you start to slide" is completely absent. Additionally, when watching the disc tonight, my brother also immediately noticed that Jiminy's line "Look out, Pinoke!" at the end of the song, as Pinocchio falls over, has also disappeared into the ether. Both these lines were present and correct on the previous DVD, and on the earlier Gold Collection release. Quite how this happened is a mystery to me, and, while these two omissions don't ultimately ruin the experience, it's a disappointing degree of sloppiness on what Disney quite rightly considers one of its flagship titles.
Land of Whimsy
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post #83 of 109
3/12/09 at 7:04pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

It will be helpful for someone with historical or "inside" knowledge to enlighten us to the real "original". The older DVD and laserdisc may or may not represent what the original sound mix sounded like in 1940 when theater-going audiences heard the optical track that Walt and his team delivered.

or... it very well may have been that these familiar voice snippets we're all missing from having grown familiar with the prior home-video releases were on the original and are sadly absent here. But let's reserve judgment until we some feedback from someone with an authoritative understanding of the matter.

Sort of like everyone who grows familiar the skewed colors of a old LD or DVD struck from an aging print suddenly cries foul when Disney color-corrects to the original painted cel art and does a proper restoration for a new DVD or BD. We may be really missing what should have been there, or maybe we're hearing the track properly restored to the original intent.

I wish I could remember the email of my old Disney contact to try to get a direct answer!

dave
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post #84 of 109
3/12/09 at 7:09pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Additionally, when watching the disc tonight, my brother also immediately noticed that Jiminy's line "Look out, Pinoke!" at the end of the song, as Pinocchio falls over, has also disappeared into the ether.
D'oh! That bit is indeed missing as well...part of that other category of omissions that didn't jump right out at me, though.

It's worth noting that both those lines are present on the foreign dub tracks. It's a pretty good sounding song in French.

Seriously, though...doesn't anybody sit down and compare these things to the versions which have been out there for decades before they send them to press?
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post #85 of 109
3/12/09 at 7:19pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Ok... I dug through a bunch emails in a dusty folder from a few years ago and found my usually-knows-stuff Disney guy. I hope his email address hasn't changed! If I hear back anything I'll let you guys know...
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post #86 of 109
3/12/09 at 7:39pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

I just wish we had a contact at Disney so we can let them know and maybe get some answers. They are good at correcting mistakes, if they know about them.
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post #87 of 109
3/13/09 at 10:04am

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Well, I went to my Disney contact with the questions and while I don't have a definitive answer, he has taken what I would suspect to be a pretty good guess: that the restoration team turned to some different audio sources in an effort to get the best sounding elements possible and used some tracks which had some of the dialogue excised for early audio releases. It might be (although hard to fathom) that they just didn't notice.

Randy Thornton is one of the Executive Producers at Walt Disney Records.

He has been involved in numerous restorations of the musical elements for the early Disney animated classics. At a different forum (of which he is an active member) I posted questions about the missing dialogue. This is his response:

Quote:
Unfortunately, I can be of little help to both questions.

First, I’m not involved with the Home Entertainment releases. I sometimes help in research, by finding and restoring the song demos and such. Recently, in the case of Sleeping Beauty, it was the elements I found to build the soundtrack album (in 1996) that prompted the studio to rebuild the audio for the new BluRay. If I’m involved at all, it’s usually in the historic element side of thing. I don’t know what was done on Pinocchio.

Second, the Pinocchio Soundtrack is the only Classic Soundtrack (aside from Fantasia) that I did not produce. I did assist in some research to help Michael Leon (the producer) find some elements and offer advice. But what I can tell you is similar to the situations in all of my own soundtrack restoration projects as well – most of the original separated elements no longer exist.

In the 1950’s there was a movement within the film industry to get rid of all the nitrate based film stock (it could spontaneously combust). When they began what I refer to as: ‘The Great Purge’, it was decided to only transfer “important” elements to the new Safety Film. In most cases, the separated elements – the vocals, the effects, the dialog, and the music elements were destroyed. They felt that the only elements necessary to save were the Composite (complete mix) for new prints over the years, and the M&E (the music and effects mix without vocal or dialog) for use in dubbing the films into other languages. They never thought that anyone would ever go back and remix a film – it was unheard of at the time, and why waste the funds.

Fortunately, they weren’t completely thorough. Some elements survived ¬- maybe bits and pieces, and sometimes complete songs. Every single soundtrack I’ve restored (except for Poppins and Jungle Book), were cobbled together from whatever elements I could find.

In the case of Pinocchio, I know that Michael and I found the Music Only elements. There were in mis-marked cans, and we assume that it was because of this that they survived The Great Purge. However, no vocals could be found. So we turned to the WDL record master that Tutti Camarata produced in the 1950s. It turns out that Tutti started producing the WDL soundtrack series just before the purge, so he had access to those long lost separated elements. Michael used that master as the source for the songs. It may have been when Tutti originally created those album tracks, when those lines went missing. That’s just a guess, but it seems likely.

Incredibly, as we were going through those mis-marked Pinocchio cans, we came across a treasure – in the very last can were several small reels of film. They turned out to be the separated music only, vocal, and chorus tracks for “When You Wish Upon a Star”. And if the fates conspired to only allow us to rebuild and restore one song in Pinocchio – I’m exceeding grateful that was the song!

I know, a lot of words just to say “I don’t know”, but there ya are.

Randy

So, his best guess is that it might be that the restoration team turned to a different audio source for the audio restoration of the film and didn't realize those bits had been excised. If true, if would make for an interesting tale, but unfortunate.
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post #88 of 109
3/13/09 at 11:28am

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

I'd prefer to have the missing word and to have the song restored from the best possible and earliest-generation elements if I had to choose.

Thanks Mike for that incredible information. Wow. Still haven't heard back from my contact and not sure if he had any better information.
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post #89 of 109
3/13/09 at 2:30pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
So, his best guess is that it might be that the restoration team turned to a different audio source for the audio restoration of the film and didn't realize those bits had been excised. If true, if would make for an interesting tale, but unfortunate.

He pretty much echoed my best theory. I had the Tutti Camarata recording; that "Right" was missing from it too. I believe it was an intentional omission to make the LP record experience sound a little smoother. I didn't even know about that "Right" until I got the vhs in 1985.

There are other vocal omissions from that soundtrack LP; I should compare more of them, but I don't think I still have that record (received it at age 6 as an Easter gift circa 1972).

So it seems that the new dvd engineers may have used some of the tracks made for the Disneyland Record soundtrack in the '50s; that's understandable, considering it's probably the cleanest soundtrack available for this film. I do forgive them for the boo-boo, but...
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post #90 of 109
3/13/09 at 3:38pm

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Pinocchio: 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Thanks Mike for that incredible information. Wow.

Thornton's the man at WDR. Almost any Disney music disc you might stumble upon usually has his name upon it somewhere. He's a true advocate for getting good product to the fans. And he's a real good guy, too!
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Pinocchio (Two-Disc 70th Anniversary Platinum Edition + Standard DVD+ BD Live) [Blu-ray]
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