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Bewitched Season 8? - Page 13

post #361 of 387

I'm not in disagreement over the fact that "Bewitched" is the inferior show, but being offended by the premise on religious grounds isn't the reason why I dislike it.    The fact that there wasn't enough truly good comedy in it is the reason why I can only watch a random sampling of episodes when things did click together.

 

Personally, I've always felt that the best of the "supernatural gimmick" sitcoms of the 60s was the lesser-heralded "My Favorite Martian" simply because Ray Walston and Bill Bixby had the chemistry and byplay of an old-fashioned vaudeville team that always knew how to elevate the material into something more funny.

post #362 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P View Post

I'm not in disagreement over the fact that "Bewitched" is the inferior show, but being offended by the premise on religious grounds isn't the reason why I dislike it.    The fact that there wasn't enough truly good comedy in it is the reason why I can only watch a random sampling of episodes when things did click together.

 

Personally, I've always felt that the best of the "supernatural gimmick" sitcoms of the 60s was the lesser-heralded "My Favorite Martian" simply because Ray Walston and Bill Bixby had the chemistry and byplay of an old-fashioned vaudeville team that always knew how to elevate the material into something more funny.


That's what I found frustrating with "Bewitched."  To me it wasn't simply a comedy.  It was a love story.  A romantic comedy.  My favorite episodes are the ones that involved things like would Darrin have married her if she had told him ahead of time she was a witch and where would Darrin be today if they had never met.  I wasn't looking for laughs, but warmth and charm.

 

For pure laughs, I agree, "My Favorite Martian" was at the top of the heap.  Pure Laurel and Hardy style fun.  And Jeannie wasn't far behind.  But, to me, Bewitched was more special.  More magical somehow.  I enjoyed the fact that Sam fit very nicely into Darrin's mortal world, interacting with Larry and Louise and his folks.  Louise Tate was her best friend.

 

Unlike Jeannie who always had to be kept hidden away in a bottle.

 

Sounds like Nick at Nite's old Sam vs. Jeannie debate!

post #363 of 387


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P View Post

My definition of "fanaticism" is when actors and writers succumb to the sin of arrogance and try to use what should be a medium of entertainment to appeal to a wide and diverse audience of people as a personal soapbox to shove a narrow agenda down the throats of the audience.    By that standard, that makes Liz Montgomery in S7 the true definition of a "fanatic" IMO (and a chief reason why I don't watch any episodes from that season except for the one where one of my favorite ladies of 70s TV Barbara Rhoades, guests).    

 

Jack Klugman personally ruined "Quincy" with the same approach.


What did Montgomery do during S7 that made her a fanatic?

post #364 of 387

Paul Mavis's S7 review at DVD Talk summed it up perfectly for me.

 

"One thing the Ashers don't have trouble making clear this season is their political ideology. Making subtle and not-so subtle references to the turbulent real world outside fictional environs like Morning Glory Circle wasn't a common occurrence in the pre-All in the Family days of network sitcoms. But obviously, Montgomery and Asher didn't mind the writers working in bits about hippies and establishment squares whenever they could. Quite often in this seventh season, references are made to "mortal prejudices" and intolerance, which can be safely translated in Bewitched's code to mean conservatives (or at least a 1970 Hollywood screenwriter's idea of a "conservative") or "unenlightened" viewers who haven't gotten hip to the cultural revolution."

 

And his comments regarding S8.

 

"As with previous seasons, when Montgomery makes a point of lecturing the audience directly about a particular point of politics, the results are ham-fisted and obvious. In George Washington Zapped Here, a good story about Washington being appalled by the lack of free speech in American life is occasionally brought to a halt by Montgomery's musings, including a direct dig at then-President Nixon's "silent majority," a group of people Hollywood millionaire liberal Montgomery apparently had trouble with, since she denigrates them for "standing by the sidelines, being led, not defending their rights." (she conveniently forgets those "silent majority" sheep made her a household name.)"    

 

That to me is fanaticism of the same kind that Norman Lear would then take to more insufferably arrogant levels throughout the 70s.

post #365 of 387

The Ashers were hypocrites in that regard -- if they were trying to push a liberal agenda in S7 then they should have realized that their show was as conservative and anti-feminist as you could get in those days.  This was a show about a woman who allowed herself to be oppressed by her husband, a family that was against mixed marriages (can we draw a parallel here?), and where every other scene included a ... "how about a drink, Larry?".  How much drinking occurred on that show anyway?

 

Mrs. Bellows:  It's true you won't have Major Nelson anymore Jeannie, but you'll have something much better ... COMMUNITY PROPERTY.

Jeannie:  I do not want this community property!

Mrs. Bellows to Divorce Lawyer:  He's brainwashed her.


Edited by bewitched1967 - 6/15/10 at 7:29pm
post #366 of 387

??  Conservative??  In no way was Bewitched that conservative a show.  It featured a mixed marriage by it's premise.  It had Endora and Maurice who had an open marriage, where Maurice was frequently seen with some bimbo on his arm.  It had Serena and Uncle Arthur, who were about as anti-Establishment as characters could be prior to Mike Stivic.

 

Nor could it be called anti-feminist, as almost all the women on the show had great power, and I'm not just talking magic.  Endora certainly wasn't beholden to any man, let alone her husband.  For that matter, neither was Gladys or Louise, who never really listened to or deferred to their husbands.  Certainly Serena wasn't.  And Sam chose not to use her magic and, like Darrin, earn her way through life; that was HER choice.  And she did what she felt was right even when Darrin expressly didn't want her to, like picketing his client in the neighborhood park.  She also wasn't afraid to tell Darrin when he was wrong, which she frequently did. And she had a brain.  It was almost the antithesis of IDOJ.  Where Jeannie would cause havoc from her ignorance or petty jealousy, leaving Tony to scramble to dig himself out, Sam almost always got Darrin out of his trouble by using her brain, rather than her magic.  Jeannie could never have thought up a logan on the spur of the moment for Col. Brighams's spare ribs or any of the myriad other times Sam's mind saved the day, rather than her witchcraft.  Not to mention the fact, that quite a few of Darrin's clients were women. 

 

Plus, as fun as IDOJ could be at times, the writing was beyond pedestrian and juvenile.  I mean, how many times did Jeannie get hit on the head and knocked out right when she was supposed to blink?  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched1967 View Post

The Ashers were hypocrites in that regard -- if they were trying to push a liberal agenda in S7 then they should have realized that their show was as conservative and anti-feminist as you could get in those days.  This was a show about a woman who allowed herself to be oppressed by her husband, a family that was against mixed marriages (can we draw a parallel here?), and where every other scene included a ... "how about a drink, Larry?".  How much drinking occurred on that show anyway?

 

Mrs. Bellows:  It's true you won't have Major Nelson anymore Jeannie, but you'll have something much better ... COMMUNITY PROPERTY.

Jeannie:  I do not want this community property!

Mrs. Bellows to Divorce Lawyer:  He's brainwashed her.



 

post #367 of 387

While I reject the knee jerk definitions of Conservative and Liberal (they are often so wrong in many ways) you have to realize that Samantha was never oppressed by Darrin.

 

Samantha loves Darrin and realizes Darrin's rugged individualism and she realizes that him living life her way would destroy him and what she loves about him, so Samantha decides to live life his way. Samantha is not oppressed, she wants to live life in his realm WHILE he is around (remember, Samantha will live long after Darrin).

post #368 of 387

I'll throw in my two cents via a personal summery about this show that I did watch in reruns as a kid in the mid 70's:

 

1) I thought the first couple of seasons were pretty solid, but it quickly lost it's luster, IMHO, as some of the cast died and or were replaced.

 

2) If I were to assign blame for the constant bickering between Endora and Darrin, the majority has to go to Endora.  I'm not sure how anyone can see it any differently.  This relationship was not an equal, give as good as you get, deal.  Darrin was pretty much always the abused guy and took the brunt of it many times.  And how often did Samantha all but run out on the marriage?  More than just once or twice during those 8 seasons.  It got a bit much, IMHO.

 

3) While the incantations and other witchcraftery did at times get a bit too "devilish" for me (never anything horrible, but I'd be lying if I said it never ever bothered me), the biggest moral issue I had was the D-R-I-N-K-I-N-G.  It was constant and it was ridiculous.  That really turned me off as I had a close cousin that was killed on her high school graduation night by a drunk driver ramming into her car.  I'm just not cool with the constant use of alchohol in this show.  That's the major moral failure of this show, IHMO.

 

4) I'm in full agreement with the excellent summeries my good friend Paul Mavis made about Seasons 7 & 8.  He hit the nail on the head 100% when it came to accurately calling Montgomery and Asher liberals that had a clear agenda by the time the show hit that point.  Norman Lear surely would have been proud to be associated with those last couple of years.

 

My two cents.

 

Gary "just back from vacation" O.

post #369 of 387

"Darrin was pretty much always the abused guy and took the brunt of it many times.  And how often did Samantha all but run out on the marriage?  More than just once or twice during those 8 seasons.  It got a bit much, IMHO."

 

As I said in earlier post dissecting this series a few pages back, there's plenty of fictional blame to be placed on Darrin as well. Probably the majority belongs to Endora, but there's plenty to go around.

 

And how many times did we see Darrin run away from his wife to the local bar to hide and think while drowning his sorrows? How is that any different then running home to mother?  If anything it was worse and more common.

 

And I never particularly found I was being preached to in late seasons. I wasn't watching these when it was a contemporary program so some of it's impact is lost on me due to some catch phrases like the "silent majority" not having the same perhaps insulting impact they once did. But things like urging people to protect their rights rather then being silent is about as preachy as it ever seemed to get and is something conservatives like myself should believe in as well. Bewitched was a far cry from the Norman Lear garbage cluttering the airwaves during the 70s and is completely tame compared to most of the episodes of his programs (With one despicable episode of Maude coming especially to mind). Comparing Bewitched to this guy's work is an inaccurate reflection of how the show really was.


Edited by LeoAmes - 6/18/10 at 10:19pm
post #370 of 387

I agree that Endora gets the lion's share of blame.  It's all spelled out in the first 3 episodes: she immediately is prejudiced against Darrin without meeting him or knowing anything about him except that he's mortal.  It has nothing to do with his not liking Sam's powers as he doesn't even know about them yet.  She even plays games with him by putting him in the lobby in his pajamas.  And when they do meet, Darrin meets her with an open mind.  He even hugs Gladys at the end of ep. 2 thinking she's Sam's mother. What does Endora do when they first meet? She comes into HIS house, refuses to call him by name even after he asks her to (which is RUDE), makes an outrageous drink request (which is RUDE), makes it herself instead of accepting what the hosts offer  (which is RUDE), rubs his nose in witchcraft, calls his beliefs asinine, threatens him and leaves.  She set the tone with all that, not Darrin.

 

Like Leo, I never felt preached to.  Aside from the innocuous "silent majority" comment in Season 8, which is pretty banal, what episodes ever really pushed a "Liberal" agenda?  "Sisters at Heart" would be the closest thing to a political statement, and that can't be called "liberal" unless you consider racial bigotry to be "conservative," which I certainly don't think is the case.  Which others are there?

 

I also meant to mention in my earlier comments about the series being "anti-feminist" that I find IDOJ to be more anti-feminist than BW.  Darrin was proud of Sam, and considered her a great asset to his career (without her powers even!), whereas Tony spent 4 years seemingly ashamed of Jeannie and didn't want her in public with him.  To all appearances, she was good enough to cook for him, take care of his house, kiss him (and presumably sleep with him), but he would never introduce her as his girlfriend.  In fact he frequently lied to her to sneak out with some OTHER woman.  Which is the more sexist attitude, Darrin's or Tony's?     

post #371 of 387

When you consider the overall premise, BW was far more sexist than IDOJ.  You're not comparing apples to apples -- you would have to compare IDOJ in Season 5 after they were married to BW.  As for the whole Endora/Darrin conflict over the entire series' run, it got tired after a while -- no character development whatsoever.  Both Endora and Darrin were unlikeable characters -- Darrin was an idiot hothead, and Endora was a bitch.

post #372 of 387

I don't think the correct analogy to Endora's not accepting Darrin is "racism."

 

I think it's more like members of royalty not being allowed to marry a "commoner" (which is just as nauseating as racism, if you ask me.)

 

Or a mother being disappointed if her Ph.D. daughter married a laborer who dropped out of high school.

 

I think I can understand Endora's feelings that her daughter, who had amazing abilities, was willing to give them up for DARRIN, of all people.  The way she handled it may have been wrong, but I can certainly understand where Endora was coming from.

post #373 of 387



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched1967 View Post

When you consider the overall premise, BW was far more sexist than IDOJ.  You're not comparing apples to apples -- you would have to compare IDOJ in Season 5 after they were married to BW.  As for the whole Endora/Darrin conflict over the entire series' run, it got tired after a while -- no character development whatsoever.  Both Endora and Darrin were unlikeable characters -- Darrin was an idiot hothead, and Endora was a bitch.


 

I find it quite the opposite.  Sexism isn't about married vs. single but about the value placed upon a woman.  I don't see any intelligent, successful, kind women depicted in IDOJ.  Jeannie sometimes gets a legit pass for her ignorance, but frequently she is painted as either inexplicably stupid or severly jealous or, worse, both.  Certainlly her sister and mother were smarter, but not at all decent or nice.  Amanda was softened by S5, but basically she started out as a shrew.  And Roger never dated one intelligent woman in 5 years; they were ALL flighty sex kittens, always dumping him for someone "better," sometime while on the date with him!   And Tony's weren't any better. Nor were there any depictions of intelligent women in the service really.  You don't dind that a sexist way to depict women?  IDOJ had the most sexist view of women on TV in the sixties outside of Petticoat Junction.  Women on IDOJ were meant to be baubles on the arms of men, for them to sleep with, but nothing more.  And Tony never respected Jeannie before they got maried.  He knew how she felt about him, and he would lie to her to sneak out and date other woman.  That is not showing her any respect at all. 

 

At least BW featured intelligent women, even sometimes as Darrin's clients.  Certainly Sam, Endora and Louise weren't stupid women or merely arm adornment,  Gladys changed when the actresses playing her changed, but the first Gladys was not silly or unintelligent.  As I said, Jeannie could never have thought on her feet and talked her way out of trouble, like Sam could.  The best she could do is blink and hope that solved the problem instead of making it worse, which it frequently did. Even as far as married women go, Sam was equally as liberated as Laura Petrie on The Dick Van Dyke Show, and far MORE liberated that the other three main married women on TV in the early 60's: Donna Reed, Barbara Billingsley or Whitney Blake (Mrs. Baxter on Hazel).  




 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lugoff View Post

I don't think the correct analogy to Endora's not accepting Darrin is "racism."

 

I think it's more like members of royalty not being allowed to marry a "commoner" (which is just as nauseating as racism, if you ask me.)

 

Or a mother being disappointed if her Ph.D. daughter married a laborer who dropped out of high school.

 

I think I can understand Endora's feelings that her daughter, who had amazing abilities, was willing to give them up for DARRIN, of all people.  The way she handled it may have been wrong, but I can certainly understand where Endora was coming from.



But it's not a Ph.D daughter and a high schoold dropout.  Those are actions and achievements, or choices to NOT act and achieve.  Whereas mortal and witch are simply born that way.  That's why I do think racism is a more accurate analogy.  And of course, the witch world had their own royalty, and neither Endora nor Sam weren't part of it (at least not back in the first 3 episodes.) 

post #374 of 387

Hey everyone sorry I kept mentioning Season 9, As an avid Bewitched fan, one can assume, I was so happy that possible some episodes were written for the 9th season which I read, and now I know wikipedia.org isn't reliable.  I just hope one day we will get that back set! Hope everyone is going well...  Anyone know if we will see a blu ray soon?

post #375 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS View Post

I'll throw in my two cents via a personal summery about this show that I did watch in reruns as a kid in the mid 70's:

 

1) I thought the first couple of seasons were pretty solid, but it quickly lost it's luster, IMHO, as some of the cast died and or were replaced.

 

2) If I were to assign blame for the constant bickering between Endora and Darrin, the majority has to go to Endora.  I'm not sure how anyone can see it any differently.  This relationship was not an equal, give as good as you get, deal.  Darrin was pretty much always the abused guy and took the brunt of it many times.  And how often did Samantha all but run out on the marriage?  More than just once or twice during those 8 seasons.  It got a bit much, IMHO.

 

3) While the incantations and other witchcraft did at times get a bit too "devilish" for me (never anything horrible, but I'd be lying if I said it never ever bothered me), the biggest moral issue I had was the D-R-I-N-K-I-N-G.  It was constant and it was ridiculous.  That really turned me off as I had a close cousin that was killed on her high school graduation night by a drunk driver ramming into her car.  I'm just not cool with the constant use of alcohol in this show.  That's the major moral failure of this show, IHMO.

 

4) I'm in full agreement with the excellent summaries my good friend Paul Mavis made about Seasons 7 & 8.  He hit the nail on the head 100% when it came to accurately calling Montgomery and Asher liberals that had a clear agenda by the time the show hit that point.  Norman Lear surely would have been proud to be associated with those last couple of years.

 

My two cents.

 

Gary "just back from vacation" O.


If you have a problem with this human activity, then you'd also have a problem with any British TV show-Coronation Street being one example and any current one, sing drinking a libation is apart of human life. There's nothing wrong with it, and if you have a problem with it, maybe you should not watch TV, read books, or see movies-drinking happens in most stories.
post #376 of 387

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post

If you have a problem with this human activity, then you'd also have a problem with any British TV show-Coronation Street being one example and any current one, sing drinking a libation is apart of human life. There's nothing wrong with it, and if you have a problem with it, maybe you should not watch TV, read books, or see movies-drinking happens in most stories.


Wow.  You resurrected a quote from me that was over a year old just to tell me that?  All I did was express my opinion about some elements of this show that I personally didn't care for.  And I went to some lengths to share something from my personal life (a cousin being killed) that I admit affected my outlook on the issue.  I also specifically pointed out that this show, in particular, was over the top when it came to the issue.  I can't think of too many other shows that had the stars with drinks in their hands in almost every single episode.  This series was unique when it came to that.  I doubt most people would disagree with me on that point.

 

The bottom line is that I didn't tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

 

 

Gary " rolleyes.gif "  O.

post #377 of 387

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary OS View Post

     Quote:



Wow.  You resurrected a quote from me that was over a year old just to tell me that?  All I did was express my opinion about some elements of this show that I personally didn't care for.  And I went to some lengths to share something from my personal life (a cousin being killed) that I admit affected my outlook on the issue.  I also specifically pointed out that this show, in particular, was over the top when it came to the issue.  I can't think of too many other shows that had the stars with drinks in their hands in almost every single episode.  This series was unique when it came to that.  I doubt most people would disagree with me on that point.

 

The bottom line is that I didn't tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

 

 

Gary " rolleyes.gif "  O.



Wow indeed.   Your last sentence hit the nail on the head, Gary.  We're all free to express our personal opinions here as long as they don't talk down to another member for their beliefs.   Dredging up an old post and adding a snarky response directed at the original poster is really poor form, especially on a friendly forum like HTF.   Some of the best discussions we've had at HTF are among those who had different viewpoints on an issue but also took care to not make anything personal.

 

 

 

post #378 of 387

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve...O View Post


Wow indeed.   Your last sentence hit the nail on the head, Gary.  We're all free to express our personal opinions here as long as they don't talk down to another member for their beliefs.   Dredging up an old post and adding a snarky response directed at the original poster is really poor form, especially on a friendly forum like HTF.   Some of the best discussions we've had at HTF are among those who had different viewpoints on an issue but also took care to not make anything personal.



Thanks, Steve.  I agree that sharing opinions is great as long as no one makes it personal. 

 

 

Gary "take care, buddy" O.

post #379 of 387

      Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post

If you have a problem with this human activity, then you'd also have a problem with any British TV show-Coronation Street being one example and any current one, sing drinking a libation is apart of human life. There's nothing wrong with it, and if you have a problem with it, maybe you should not watch TV, read books, or see movies-drinking happens in most stories.

 

Your comment is not only inappropriate, as Gary and Steve have substantiated, but your remarks conviently ignore one significant fact regarding "drinking" and that it's "part of human life."

 

- Agree, alcohol when consumed in moderate quantities is one thing, but, as Gary clearly explained in his prior post, excessive consumption often leads to tragic consequences. That was mentioned by Gary, yet you chose to ignore that important point.

 

- Surprise...I'm a big fan of Bewitched. That said, I'm the first to agree with Gary's point about how this series emphasized alcohol consumption in many of its episodes. I doubt that our other Bewitched fan members would disagree with that fact. Many episodes included "Larry" and "Darrin" frequenting the Steven's bar and there were many scenes in a local bar where the resident drunk made an appearance ("Dick Wilson", the well-known character actor comes to mind, among others).

 

Personally, the numerous drinking scenes don't bother me in this series. On the other hand, I've not been through the experience of having lost a close friend or relative in a senseless alcohol-related traffic incident. I'd think that there would be others that would feel similar to Gary about shows that clearly feature many scenes where the lead characters are depicted consuming alcoholic beverages, if they have experienced similar tragedies in their lives.

 

Please consider some of these points before posting similar comments. 

 

post #380 of 387

Thanks, Jeff.  That was very well said and you definitely communicated my thoughts on the subject.

 

 

Gary "funny, but I was only responding to other posters and a well-known dvd reviewer (Paul Mavis) as it concerned this issue - yet I was the one targeted for only expressing my personal opinions" O.

post #381 of 387
I agree with everything both Gary and Jeff are trying to say. I think we all agree that alcohol consumption can lead to tragic consequences. But if you don't mind, I'm still gonna laugh my head off every time I watch the scene where Imogene Coca discovers the delights of brandy...It's all forgiveable. Alcohol was still wearing the mask of Comedy for the most part when Bewitched aired. I don't think I've seen many "funny drunk" scenes on television since its day, but Bewitched certainly wasn't alone. Even Lucy had her Vitameatavegimin. And don't tell me that wasn't funny. I suppose Hollywood has matured enough to responsibly show the effects and negative results of alcohol, but it's not fair to compare today's television to the thoughts and morals of 1966. Funny alcohol usage was grist for the comedy mill, and had been all the way as far as you want to look. If they did things like that now, I'd have a problem with it.

But as previous posters alluded to (way back in the Spring of 2010), Bewitched would go back and forth on expressing liberal views. But using the term "liberal" in the context of the 1960s or early 1970s almost meant that you were openly discussing issues that people had previously absolutely. The only thing "liberal" about Bewitched is that it was one of the shows that set the ball in motion. In the 1950s, nobody was discussing things like "open marriages," or Women's Lib, or Civil Rights. Those things simply did not exist on television and you'd be called a pinko Commie scum if you even tried. But the mood in the country was sour enough that television by the late 60s had to react to what was happening in the real world. And I don't think the things on Bewitched were so much pushing a "liberal agenda" as they were pushing the envelope on the kinds of topics that could and should have been discussed on television. When I think of "Sisters at Heart," I don't see it as liberal. I see it as forward-thinking, as it introduces the concept of racial prejudice to children in a gentle and comedic way. TV should have been doing that kind of thing all along, but the 50s frankly sucked and fear ruled the day. That's the truth about the 50s. All the shows that aired prior to say, 1965 seem ignorant today simply because they had no choice but to play it safe. And Bewitched was reacting to the mood of the country as it aired, but still did so in a sweetly innocent way; they knew full well that a huge percentage of their audience were children.

It took Norman Lear to push the dialogue open all the way. And he wasn't a liberal radical either...he was simply discussing the kinds of things that were by then being discussed openly in the news and on college campuses of the time. And what, I ask you, is the harm of open debate? I don't look at Norman Lear's shows and think that he had some specific agendas to push. It was more like he was a moderator and allowed both sides of an argument to be discussed, on television in a comedic fashion. Sit back and look at All in the Family again...the viewpoints on that show were always very well-balanced. If anyone watches that show and simply agrees with Archie and thinks Meathead is a radical terror, then they're missing half the point. Or vice versa: those who side with Meathead and don't listen to Archie's equally valid points of view are also missing out on half of the experience. But that show was never about who "won" the day. It was always about the discussion--the argument and getting these viewpoints across to the people who were already openly discussing them at home in the first place. It was a show about learning to listen. That was the value of that show.

Lear did pave the way for open dialogue on primetime television. Other producers go that route, or continue to play it safe. Most choose to play it safe. But at least television remains (at its best) a open forum for public debate, as it should be. That's the world I want to live in; I don't know about the rest of you.
post #382 of 387

I have my own opinion about tv history and comparisons :)  but what Gary, Steve, and I were saying here was that the poster in post #375 included the condescending remark of "if you have a problem with it..." etc.   As I posted earlier, this poster omitted the point that Gary was using to explain his response.  He chose to ignore that part and focus on what appears to us to be a problem with Gary's post that was posted about a year earlier.

 

If that remark hadn't been posted, we wouldn't be discussing diverse pov's regarding tv history, a topic which we probably all have our own opinions that will differ with other members here.

post #383 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Willis View Post

I have my own opinion about tv history and comparisons :)  but what Gary, Steve, and I were saying here was that the poster in post #375 included the condescending remark of "if you have a problem with it..." etc.   As I posted earlier, this poster omitted the point that Gary was using to explain his response.  He chose to ignore that part and focus on what appears to us to be a problem with Gary's post that was posted about a year earlier.

 

If that remark hadn't been posted, we wouldn't be discussing diverse pov's regarding tv history, a topic which we probably all have our own opinions that will differ with other members here.


It was a rude thing for him to say. But he needs to read my post above if he's too ignorant to understand the historic portrayals of drinking on television over the years, and the differences between then and now. Or if he still doesn't get it, I can do some research over the weekend and deliver him a complete investigative report on the subject. But what a bore that would be for all of us. I won't criticize Neville further except to say that while it can be argued that the drinking on "Bewitched" was relatively innocent, it is not so on other shows. I do feel, however, that today's television is responsible enough to balance portrayals of alcoholics with the repercussions of their actions, (eventually). They did not deal with it responsibly on "Bewitched," but it was portrayed in an innocent fashion, as far as it could be carried in its time. Gary is right if he thinks that balance isn't there. You never really saw the negative consequences of drinking on that show (just some comedic annoyances caused by drinking).

If you read into my clumsy defense of All in the Family above, you'd probably realize that I favor open debate in society (and by extension, on the internet). I think Neville is perhaps a big Bewitched fan and wished to defend it against any negative criticism, and got in over his head. But I freely admit that I'm using his pseudo-antipathetic comment in order to open up an interesting debate on the subject of alcohol on television--then and now. I do wish others would tell us what they thought of the drinking on Bewitched, because it's the white (pink?) elephant in the room that rarely comes up when discussing classic television.
post #384 of 387
We live in a seriously flawed world, and there's nothing we can do about it.

I LOVE LUCY is my favorite show of all time, and how does it make me feel to see cigarette smoking on it, when I know both the two stars died of cigarette-smoking illnesses (cancer and heart disease)?

If you look for things to upset you in this world, you'll always be upset. So I try as hard as I can to concentrate on the positive and not let the negative get to me too much.

The worst thing about BEWITCHED where those lame scripts!
post #385 of 387
I think Bewitched ran out of ideas after the 5th season and just became tired.and repetitive . The show no longer was a romantic comedy. It became more a children's show. In fact Darren and Sam didn't seem to show much affection for each other. Compare the 5th season 'Samantha Goes South For a Spell " with its semi remake about Henry the 8th. In both Samantha is sent back to the past with no memory and has to kiss Darren in order to get back. to the present. The later episode just goes for cheap laughs while the earlier episode has warmth. You can say it was because one Darren was better than the other but I think it had more to do with poor writing. The show had run its course long before it ended. I didn't buy the later seasons because I didn't think they were good, not because I disagreed with its politics, which I don't believe it had. I think anyone who says Bewitched had a liberal agenda is just feeding their conservative need to see liberal 'witches" in anything from Hollywood. I would hardly think Boyce and Hart was anyone's idea of a hip rock band in the 1960's. Probably the most liberal episode it did was "Sisters At Heart" where Tabitha gave herself and her black friend polka dots so they would look like and be sisters. I don't see the conservatives complaining about that episode as it probably wouldn't be politically correct to do so today.
Edited by Garysb - 8/2/11 at 1:23pm
post #386 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS View Post

     Quote:



Wow.  You resurrected a quote from me that was over a year old just to tell me that?  All I did was express my opinion about some elements of this show that I personally didn't care for.  And I went to some lengths to share something from my personal life (a cousin being killed) that I admit affected my outlook on the issue.  I also specifically pointed out that this show, in particular, was over the top when it came to the issue.  I can't think of too many other shows that had the stars with drinks in their hands in almost every single episode.  This series was unique when it came to that.  I doubt most people would disagree with me on that point.

 

The bottom line is that I didn't tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

 

 

Gary " rolleyes.gif "  O.


Frankly, I felt your comments were very pertinent, especially considering the context in which you made them. You were simply expressing an opinion and made some very valid comments about the series in general. Life experiences alter your perspective of what is, and is not, funny or offensive. It's when people share theirs, like you did, that others can understand and hopefully become more sensitive to possible offensive behavior. I'd never really noticed how much drinking takes place at the Stevens's until you mentioned it.

I was never bothered by the witchcraft in the series as I saw it all as pure fantasy. Even though I grew up in a *very* conservative Christian household Bewitched was not considered offensive. As far as the drinking, my recollections are this was fairly "normal" for TV and films of the era. In the 60s it seemed that someone was *always* lighting up and/or getting a drink in almost every TV show and film. As Ethan indictes, the "funny drunk" was farily common in 50s/60s TV, although I rarely found these skits funny (Vitameatavegimin being a rare exception mainly because it was an unintended consequence). I was not then, nor now, bothered by the drinking in Bewitched but I very much understand circumstances can change that view and make it offensive, especially those in your situation.

Keep on sharing Gary. I always enjoy your comments/reflections.
post #387 of 387

Thanks for all the replies - both pro and con.  I wanted to clarify my position in hopes that if people disagree with me, they at least understand where I'm really coming from as opposed to some distorted caricature of what I really believe (which is what I felt Neville's post was doing).
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lugoff View Post

If you look for things to upset you in this world, you'll always be upset. So I try as hard as I can to concentrate on the positive and not let the negative get to me too much.


I agree completely, Joe.  And if my original post (from a year ago) came across as me nitpicking things just because I enjoy being upset then I failed miserably.  I've found that context is king when people are quoting others and trying to discuss issues.  And at the time I originally posted the discussion was centering on Paul Mavis' review of seasons Seven & Eight, per Jack P's post #364.  That was a large part of what I was responding to and interacting with when I posted last year.  Combined with his critique, which for the record I did find spot on, I interjected some personal real life issues that influenced the way I looked at the show.  Or better yet, influenced my enjoyment of the show as it progressed year in and year out for eight seasons. 

 

I'd also note that nowhere in my original post did I imply that other people should feel the same way I did.  It was just a moment of sharing some personal thoughts in a place where I felt I could.  Maybe that was my mistake.  I've always looked at HTF like a friendly neighborhood barbershop where people come together and share.  At least that's how I've viewed this place.  And I thought I could share a personal story from my life, and how that shaped my viewing of Bewitched, and not get slammed for that.  Hopefully that still holds true.  But regardless, I did want to make it clear that I'm not running around trying to find things that offend me or upset me in TV.  I'm a big boy and know that TV Land (not the station, just the commonly used phrase) is a place where there's always going to be shows that appeal to me and shows that don't.  There's plenty out there for everyone and I'm great with that.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garysb View Post

I think Bewitched ran out of ideas after the 5th season and just became tired.and repetitive . The show no longer was a romantic comedy. It became more a children's show. It fact Darren and Sam didn't seem to show much affection for each other. Compare the 5th season 'Samantha Goes South For a Spell " with its semi remake about Henry the 8th. In both Samantha is sent back to the past with no memory and has to kiss Darren in order to get back. to the present. The later episode just goes for cheap laughs while the earlier episode has warmth. You can say it was because one Darren was better than the other but I think it had more to do with poor writing. The show had run its course long before it ended. I didn't buy the later seasons because I didn't think they were good, not because I disagreed with its politics, which I don't believe it had. I think anyone who says Bewitched had a liberal agenda is just feeding their conservative need to see liberal 'witches" in anything from Hollywood. I would hardly think Boyce and Hart was anyone's idea of a hip rock band in the 1960's. Probably the most liberal episode it did was "Sisters At Heart" where Tabitha gave herself and her black friend polka dots so they would look like and be sisters. I don't see the conservatives complaining about that episode as it probably wouldn't be politically correct to do so today.


Gary, I'll just say that I do believe Paul Mavis hit on a truth about ideology in his reviews.  And I'll just leave it at that.  To each his own.  smile.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobO'Link View Post

Frankly, I felt your comments were very pertinent, especially considering the context in which you made them. You were simply expressing an opinion and made some very valid comments about the series in general. Life experiences alter your perspective of what is, and is not, funny or offensive. It's when people share theirs, like you did, that others can understand and hopefully become more sensitive to possible offensive behavior. I'd never really noticed how much drinking takes place at the Stevens's until you mentioned it.

I was never bothered by the witchcraft in the series as I saw it all as pure fantasy. Even though I grew up in a *very* conservative Christian household Bewitched was not considered offensive. As far as the drinking, my recollections are this was fairly "normal" for TV and films of the era. In the 60s it seemed that someone was *always* lighting up and/or getting a drink in almost every TV show and film. As Ethan indictes, the "funny drunk" was farily common in 50s/60s TV, although I rarely found these skits funny (Vitameatavegimin being a rare exception mainly because it was an unintended consequence). I was not then, nor now, bothered by the drinking in Bewitched but I very much understand circumstances can change that view and make it offensive, especially those in your situation.

Keep on sharing Gary. I always enjoy your comments/reflections.


Thanks a lot, Howie.  I appreciate the kind words.  It's not that I'm blind to the fact that drinking was often a mainstay in 50's and 60's TV.  Heck, I love westerns and there's plenty of scenes involving alcohol in those.  Look at The Andy Griffith Show and Otis.  I laugh like everyone else in those instances.  No problems at all with the occasional reference/scene involving drinking.  I just thought with Bewitched in particular it seemed like an overdone thing.  And that's really all there is to it.  Nothing more and nothing less.   I wasn't then, nor am I now, telling other people what should or shouldn't influence how they watch a TV show or what they do or don't enjoy about it.  Not at all.

 

I hope this has helped explain where I was coming from.

 

 

 

Gary "take care, everyone" O.

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