A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray - Page 9

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I'd consider the Pinocchio excellent though not perfect.

Many other discs have flaws that never get noticed. Disney animated titles are practically scoured with a microscope and reviewed in reverse frame by frame by the adoring fan-base. That doesn't make such critical analysis wrong (far from it, Disney should have done a bit better), but it does mean that we notice problems in Disney titles that would otherwise have slipped under radar of most other releases out there branded as "perfect" by lack of similar scrutiny.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I think another reason people get a little upset with mistakes in Disney titles is that they know it will be years and years before a new edition comes out.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

lol. great post...

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Well, when they're restored the people who are doing it aren't taking a decade old dvd (and I believe it was even from a laserdisc) as reference. You can't compare the two.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Is this a joke?

You took an early-generation DVD that was authored from an out-dated laserdisc master which was made from an over-DNRed transfer from aging prints that had long faded and color-shifted so that the NTSC master was "pumped" to try to saturate the hues... and *that* was your reference point for judging the correctness or wrongness of the Blu-ray?

And that's somehow better than taking actual negatives, hand-painted originals, and historical notes about desired color ala the Blu-ray Disc restoration?

I'm baffled by some of the folks in this thread who seem convinced that the older laserdisc and DVD home-video versions of these pre-WWII classics taken from multi-generation source material that had aged for decades were somehow transparent to the original artistic intent whereas the newer releases which have been restored with the explicit intent of matching historical accuracy are not.



A seemingly obvious fact that is somehow a mystery to several contributors in this thread.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Someone pops in and this is their first post? Don't know why some of you are taking the bait.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Understood and your opinion can stand on its own. However, as you said you manipulated screen caps, please post them to demonstrate your points.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

That's not an original cel (I've seen it discussed elsewhere). It's a reproduction of a cel. It's on Ebay. And the old DVD is certainly no reference (what IS it with people determining Blu Ray quality by comparing it to DVD, anyway??). As David point out, you (and everyone else on here) do not have an objective reference. It's obvious that the ONLY people who do have good reference materials work for Disney.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Agreeing that 'sunshine is the best disinfectant', all Disney need do is share with us. Original cel art and negative used as an "objective reference?" No problem. Show us untouched digital images of both and the final result and if the final result appears to accurately represent source materials ... this issue goes away.

I'd love to see how the Indians around the song "What Makes the Red Man Red?" in Peter Pan were meant to be brown. But my guess is that the song is more likely to be changed before that is forthcoming. Disney, you can always prove me wrong.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Did "intense blues" result from the emergence of plastics, Art?!?

On what do you base that comment?

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Art, I'm not sure if you don't want me to follow up here, but I'm a bit lost with your assertions.

I understand your sentiment about the new "look" that Disney is giving to its animated classics. That is a debate that has been going on ever since Lowry got it's hands on Sleeping Beauty for its last DVD release (or maybe since any of these films started getting prepared for ANY generation of home video release).

I still don't understand the basis of your belief that such a blue couldn't have existed in the 1940s.

Assuming you have read this entire thread, the subject of true colors has been discussed quite a bit...including this post by the OP, Robert Harris, back on page 2.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I know it has been [discussed]. And still I didn't see any final statements. Just some talk that the colors always vary...

It was said in the posts that a dye print can be no reference, if so there is really no reference, because drawing the cells is just the beginning.
In the gold version we see clearly that lots of photographic efects has been added to the cells. The scenes with Pinocchio in a cage are so dark, we almost don't see anything, next the Blue Fairy comes and everything shines beautifully. (And it is a white kind of light).
The best thing that can prove that is for example the efect of water in final scenes - do you believe someone has drawn this and that it's on the cells, I don't.
Other - the continuous transformation of the background color when the blue-fairy disappears. This couldn't have been drawn too, I think.
Every print of the negative looks different - ok, but there are similar things certainly. Like for example the contours looks like they've been drawn, and we see the diferent shades of paint. It's little things, but can't be compared to the digital look of the movie, where the picture just looks plain and boring.
To me with every digital release these movies are becoming worse. The resolution is better, but there are less details and everything looks like plastic.
The gold edition for example didn't look that faded - it didn't look like it should be redrawn definitively, so why change so much, and not let it be.
That is something I won't understand. And if this is done, why can't Disney at least also include the original damaged, dyed, and aged version of the film as a bonus or something, for enthusiasts. This forum has shown that there are some of them - It may even increase the sales of their Blu-Rays...
(I for example did not buy the new Pinocchio, only one of my friends did, and we definitively would with the old version included - like in Blade Runner for example).

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Oh - about the blue.
Maybe it could have existed, but I don't really think it did.
It would have shown itself on the gold edition, just like the blue of
Pinocchio's tie, or the Blue-Fairy's dress.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I don't understand why not releasing the old dyed, faded, scanned originals along with new restored versions, just like with the Blade Runner, and give the viewer an option.
After all - there is so much talk about it.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

No one is criticizing your preference for the look of the older disc. I prefer the color spectrum of the older Mary Poppins DVD to the new "restored" version.


The historic archivist assisting with restoration knows that. They research everything including the light bulbs used to illuminate the cels when being photographed (which can have a huge affect on color) as well as "what the artists were going for" given the final print. That's been covered extensively in this thread, for anyone who cares to read it.



As film prints age color balance can change dramatically. Especially after 50 year or more, and even new prints can vary one from another given variables during replication. Let's take advantage of the information that's been shared by experts in the field of film aging and restoration such as RAH. Even a turn of the color dial on your TV can change the blue balance. The lack of the blue in the old DVD indicates absolutely nothing conclusive about how the original film was intended to look.


Blade Runner wasn't giving you the same film sans-restoration: they were giving you another cut of the film that they didn't have time or money to restore.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

What are you referring to here? The distortion effect when P and J are walking on the ocean floor?


There is a discussion in the commentary about how the Blue Fairy scene was shot. I believe it touches on this subject. IIRC, The Blue Fairy scene was one of the more complex scenes in the film.

I have to disagree with your assertion that the film looks plastic. The restoration impresses me more and more as I rewatch it. Maybe I'm just getting more used to it. Every time I watch the film I spot more and more of the little details that the artists put in to it.

This is probably Disneys best restoration effort to date, despite the decision to remove the film grain. P was never a favorite of mine, but this BD has allowed me to really see this film in a whole new light. I would probably put this at number 2 behind BAMBI on my list of best Disney films.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Beauty and the Beast doesn't really have any relevance here. It wasn't restored. Merely a bit screwed up when it was put on dvd. If you search for the Imax trailer on YouTube, you'll find out the colors look much better on that one. So I think it'll look all right on Blu-Ray when it comes out.



You have a choice. Just watch the older version if you're perfectly fine with that one. It's not like Disney is forcing you to buy this, or confiscating any earlier dvd put out.


The brush strokes on the fur look much better on the new version to me. They're much more detailed (check the Blu-Ray caps).
Oh, and the actual earlier restoration (which wasn't available in Region 1) done by Lowry looked quite similar to the new Blu-Ray and dvd. So, even if the Gold Collection disc was restored, how do you think the two newer versions look more like each other?

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

It wasn't restored ??
Of course it was, and redrawn to fit the IMAX screen in 2001, as far as I remember. And the colors on the IMAX trailer do look acurate, but not the contours, and the overal look of the drawings.
And I remember being so into the dvd, as it stated that all three versions of the movie are included, and they haven't been, just an option to watch it with the new sequence, or without it, and the "work in progress" parts.




Of course I have - that is what I will unfortunately have to do. Still not every Disney movie is available this way (Cinderella is not, BATB, Aladdin, and TLK are only in IMAX like versions - my favourite movies as a kid).
And the picture quality of the gold dvd isn't exactly perfectly fine - there is lots of digital noise, and it's dvd 480p resolution - these films in the 40's have been shot in 35mm which is even more that 1080p BR resolution, and this is the only thing that really needs to be improved
(I wish it was).



That's not what I think, more detail is visible because the resolution is higher, but they [brush strokes] look plain and less detailed. As for the 2003 dvd I have suspitions it has lots in common with the new restoration. And it looks very similar with the yellow-pastel workshop and the blue light from the Blue fairy.

OH, AND I HAVE A PERFECT ONE - please, look at the Honest John's clothes in the old and new version. This is something that doesn't need to be discussed, but I especially mean the contrast between the green waistcoat, and the green pants, or the different kinds of shade on the pants that suddenly disappear in the new version.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I realise that. It's just I think that there are still some people that find these old prints the best. I am one of these people. When it comes to old movies I don't really care about the technical correctness that much. I had a video-tape with the old Snow White recorded - that is how I got used to it.
Exposing the background imperfections was a drastic change for me and I didn't recognized one of my favourite childhood movies...
And I am not so old, I am a bit over my teenage.

Concluding, I must admit being a bit selfish refering to the original versions, as I don't think myself too that someone not attached so emotionally to the old look of cartoons should appreciate the original version. But I still think it would be a great bonus feature, and I will never stop hoping someday Disney will make it available.
Still, I think that too much animation detail is being removed from old movies, and too much changes are being made.

And redrawing Beauty and The Beast is of course another subject.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I haven't. My mistake, I confused the words "GWTW" with something else.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Not saying you should expect less, especially w/ a BD title (and one that probably comes after numerous previous dips on DVD, LD, VHS).

However, it seems like you're actually expecting perfection, not mere excellence, IMHO. Well, I'm not saying that *all* the different flaws found so far are acceptable, but it does seem at least a few of them are acceptable enough me thinks.


Actually, although the Yankees are my favorite team, I'm not your typical fan who cannot be reasonably objective about such things. In fact, these days, I find myself owning more KC Royals pitchers in fantasy baseball than Yankees.

Anyway, point taken about your very high expectations.


I think there's probably a bit of a double standard here. Interestingly (that you should bring up Dr. No), I *do* think something's not completely right w/ the Dr. No BD -- and have mentioned it once or twice somewhere on this forum (probably on one of the review threads). Honestly, I do think Dr. No has been slightly overcooked in places w/ DNR and/or contrast tweaks and/or sharpening -- and IIRC, even RAH mentioned very briefly that he wonders if something wasn't slightly overcooked at times. There are definitely a few shots/scenes where it looks a bit unnatural (and un-film-like) to me. But it's nothing distracting enough for me to go on an extended rant about. However, it apparently bothers you (and most others) not at all...

To each his own I guess...

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Unless I missed it, there seems to be the "sound of silence" on the audio problems from Disney.

For those that felt that Disney would be quick to address the issue and possibly remedy the problems ... what say you now?

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Rich: I was wondering about this very same issue just last night. The silence from the mouse is deafening.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

I never said they'd be quick about it. They DO however, have a history of re-pressing problem dvds and setting up replacement programs. That can't be denied.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Exactly. Didn't it take about two years to correct the Silly Symphonies disc?

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

i do wish Disney would at least comment on whether a correction might be considered...or if they are content with the discs as the exist. i do miss the dialog.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

As is almost always the case, I'm sure there are legal reasons for their silence. After all, if they make a statement and then for some corporate reason the terms change I'm sure they could be sued, in theory. Therefore, better to say nothing until a solid plan is in place.

Re: A few words about...™ Pinocchio -- in Blu-ray

Hello,

It's me again.
I've thought things up once again.
I would like to write I am very sorry for my vulgar and rude critics
about the Pinocchio Blu-Ray edition.
I think it looks very impressive, is extremely detailed, sharp, clean, but
on the other hand we can even see the subtle paint brushes from
the animation drawings. It looks amazing.
The package is also the best, I think, Disney has made yet. I can't wait
for the Snow White Blu-Ray to be released. After all - these are my
favourite cartoons.

My best regards to everybody on the forum.