HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two - Page 2

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

The DVD presentation of this show is in no way substandard, nor has it destroyed the quality; it is merely different, but no less a great product.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. I too think the new releases can and should be considered "substandard" and that the quality of the series has been greatly damaged by the replacement music.

Gary "I'm a bit surprised at the number of people that seemingly don't care about this development of removing entire underscores from a classic TV show" O.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

And, unfortunately, isn't that exactly what CBS/Paramount is banking on? I agree with you 100% on this issue. It appears that the only recourse we have is to vote with our wallet, and that is why I now spend my money elsewhere.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Which would mean no My Three Sons on DVD at all since they have already decided that paying Capitol Music a high amount of money for the original score is out of the budget for this show. I agree it is bad to replace the music and I certainly would have been willing to pay a little more for to have it but the show is still very enjoyable as is and is better than no My Three Sons at all.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Yep. That's exactly the viewpoint that I've come to hold on this issue: if a copyright holder can't release a property intact and in its original form, don't bother. I'd rather do without.

Everybody has their own set of standards, but the music excisions we're discussing are so radical that I'm surprised there's not more of a consensus on this point. A I mean, if a fruit vendor says, sorry, the only apples we have are full of worms, are you going to tell yourself, "Mmmm ... worms, YUMMY!" Or maybe try a pear instead?

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

That's two of us here. To me, it seems to indicate that the TV/DVD buyers reside in distinctive groups:

1) Buyers that will purchase the show with minor (my def of minor won't be the same as others here) edits, ie missing teasers or tags, missing original "The ____, in Color" openings, Time Compression (that's a major deal-breaker to some here, not me), a particular song removed from episodes for copyright reasons, ie Frank Sinatra, etc, playing in a background club, restaurant scene.

2) Buyers that will pass on a release for any or all of the reasons above

3) Buyers that will get a show regardless of changes since said show is on their all-time "Grail" list.

4) Buyers that will pass on what I define as wholesale changes, like substituting the entire underscore

5) Those that will pass due to video/transfer quality

6) Buyers without specific knowledge of a show that either watched the show as kids and will purchase the show with "memory lane" or nostalgia as a primary motivation to purchase.

For myself, I usually fit into #4 and an occasional #5.


Stephen, I'm also somewhat suprised but imo, the reason that this seems to be so is that we on this Bd represent a small % of the sales with these sets, at least that's what I think. Where would you all guess that we at HTF represent as a % of the buying public with these these pre-70's sets? Without data, my guess is at most, we probably buy 5% of these units in sales.

I respect Randy's & Doug's viewpoints on this issue. I'm just on the other side of it But I also think that a no-sale stance by HTF'ers wouldn't be large enough to register with the studios. I think that with some indy's, like Shout or Infinity, it's different since we have some avenues there that imo, are rare with the majors.

Bottom line to me is that for those here that buy M3S, enjoy. I'll pass due to the underscore removal.

I posted something similar to this on the Fugitive thread but it's always seemed to me that TV/DVD is viewed a lot differently than film DVD releases. ie, if a complete score had been removed and substituted in a popular film DVD release, would you guys think that the reaction would be the same as with M3S or the Fugitive? Granted, the Fugitive issue received more attention than I'd have guessed, but the result is (from CBS/P) more of the same.

I can't help but believe that it should be "apples & apples" instead of "apples & oranges" when we look at a wholesale underscore change with a TV/DVD release and a film DVD release. I realize that comparisons due to copyright reasons are a moot point. Just my "2 cents" as Gary would say

I think that what's bothered us most here at HTF with these wholesale underscore removals, is that it set a precedent that, to my knowledge, hadn't occured previously with TV/DVD. Now we have a repeat release with the original score removed. In addition, considering how it was first done with the Fugitive S2V1 release, that probably altered our perception of the studio and put us in a different frame of mind for upcoming pre-70's releases.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I would not buy a TV DVD with the complete underscore changed. That My Three Sons will only be released that way means I will not buy it. However if people are willing to purchase a show in this condition I don't think I have any right to tell them, no you shouldn't buy this.

I think low sales will only result in the show being discontinued. I don't think it will result in CBS giving us the uncut version. I think CBS has already decided that the only way to release this show is by changing the music. That the reviewer here did not notice the music changes kind of shows that CBS is correct in saving money by changing the music. The majority of people who will buy the DVD will not know what they are missing.

I am sure CBS makes decisions on what music to cut or replace on a show by show basis. As far as I know there were no music cuts on " I Love Lucy". Gomer Pyle had music cuts but I don't think Andy Griffith Show did. Dick Van Dyke was uncut but not released by CBS.

CBS should be more upfront about changes to the broadcast version of their shows. It should not be necessary to wait for a review to make an informed decision.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

That's my view. I don't like someone telling everyone to just buy it (because the music doesn't matter and they can just buy the CD) so I'm not going to tell anyone else that they can't buy it.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

If exorbitant music licensing is truly the case, then CBS/Paramount should be saving a lot by using these horrid (IMO) synth sound tracks. How then do they justify splitting season sets in half and charging a premium price for each volume? I respect your opinion regarding the buying decision you've made, but as for me, I'll pass. There are too many other companies out there doing a better job with vintage TV releases and I would rather support them. In fact, many of the other guys have far less in the way of resources at their disposal than CBS/Paramount, yet they still manage to give fans more content and better quality for less. CBS/Paramount has gone from first to worst in my book and I can't in good conscience support their shoddy releases that seem to smack of a "cash grab" mentality. If that means no My Three Sons for me, then so be it...

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

That's a good attitude.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I don't think any of us can claim to truly understand the logic behind why paramount does some shows split season and others full seasons. My best guess is they use a formula based on the total rights and remastering cost to release the show and how many copies they anticipate it will sell to arrive at how many copies they need to sell to make a profit and if it doesn't come out to enough then they do a split season.
And in the case of My Three Sons when they added in the high cost to pay Capitol Records for the original music use they probably couldn't arrive at a profit even with a split season release so they decided to rescore it vs. not release it at all. So if these season one releases do not sell it is highly unlikely that we will ever see My Three Sons released on DVD.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

LOL. You can throw words like "merely" in there all you want. I don't want classic movies and TV series to be different at all!

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Doug,

I respect your opinion on the music issue but consider this point regarding the recent under-score changes with M3S & the Fugitive releases:

Would your position on the issue possibly be different if a DVD film release had its entire underscore replaced vs what you viewed in the theater or from your home provider (cable, satt, etc)? I figure that this comparison is moot given the differences between the film/DVD & TV/DVD liscensing/rights issues, particularly regarding the older TV shows with rights contracts dating back 40-50 years.

Another comparison for a more recent TV/DVD release could be, say, if the "Firefly" DVD release had its entire music score replaced for the DVD release. I can't imagine the reaction of DVD-buyers if that were to have occured. Fortunately for TV/DVD collectors of recent shows, that issue has been prevented due to home video rights/clearances being resolved at the time of these shows' initial productions/initial airings. Unfortunately for the 50's-60's TV/DVD collectors, that often isn't the case.

This is just imo, but for me, certain shows from vintage 50's-60's era are more impacted by their original scores. For me, using a 60's show "Combat!", one of my all-time shows, I can't imagine viewing the series on DVD with the original Leonard Rosenmann score replaced.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I think, sadly, those who care enough about replaced underscore to boycott represent only a fraction of the market, and CBS/Par has discovered they can get away with it almost like business as usual. True they probably remastered and rescored M3S season one all at the same time and have nothing to lose by releasing the second half of the season (much the same with the FUGITIVE S2V2).

Still, I think message board folk are not representative of most of the buying public, and the replacements will only get worse.

I hope I'm wrong.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I'd rather have no "My Three Sons" at all...and that's exactly what I'm going to have, along with many other CBS/Paramount releases that I've refused to buy.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Yep, to all those points. No question we are a small minority and CBS/Paramount simply doesn't care what we think. No doubt in my mind that's the case.

Gary "I'm also very concerned we will see this pattern continue with more shows" O.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Me too! I'll get buy without My Three Sons. However, I'll still make sure CBS/Paramount Video understands why I chose this position.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

If the new set is altered like the previous release (this set would be worse because scenes include music being performed so those have to be removed) then I will tell you it is substandard in every way, and the quality is destroyed and it is a very terrible product. I can not watch for more than it takes to hear the first few notes. It makes me sick. The whole mood instantly changes to something very depressing. I cannot believe more than a couple of seasons would ever be released by CBS anyway so why are some people so concerned that the releases could stop if we do not buy these turds. There are other ways to have the whole series on DVD, even if half of the shows are syndicated edits, they are high quality with original music and a lot of the scenes missing are inconsequential, not just the epilogues cut off like was done to TAGS in syndication. Thats the way I will enjoy this great show from the good old days.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I think that the people who are defending these releases are just trying to convince themselves that they were not ripped off and their money wasted.

Here is a good reply to a Fugitive review I saw on Amazon-

"Hi All, I'm an observer from the UK and have been following this for months.

I can't believe that some people SEEM to be willing to buy a second rate product. I also find it hard to believe that some SEEM to say that they can't remember the series but are going to buy it!

Surely the vast majority of potential purchasers are baby boomers who remember the series first time round and love everything about it including the wonderful music of Rugolo AND the brilliant cues that are of the time, appropriate and were chosen by expert craftsmen working on the series.

I feel sorry for Mark Heyes and the other hacks who have been damned by unwittingly creating this opprobrium that now taints them, probably for ever more. But they are not, and will never be, musicians of the calibre of Rugolo, Steiner, Goldsmith etc.

I've just about had it with Viacom. I am the customer, not them, I pay the money, I expect a good product. I will not be dictated to by a corporation and its pathetic, nit-picking lawyers.

I will either reluctantly take a chance with a bootleg ar endeavour to buy tapes of the 9 or so episodes that I lack and embark on the laborious task of transferring to DVD.

Do you know, my other "must have" is "The Invaders", but I haven't yet ordered it and may very well never do so, so fed up am I with this farce.

Best wishes to Garth and others who are maintaining their integrity."

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I suspect there are DVD executives with the attitude "the consumer doesn't know any better" and they laugh when people actually show gratitude for any junk they throw at them. It goes along with Barnum's comment on how a sucker is born every minute. I'm glad this Forum proves that not all of us are uninformed suckers!

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

In a recent Conde Nast Magazine, Sumner Redstone is on the cover talking about how his fortune and his empire are faltering.

So that money saved on not licensing music for, well, almost every CBS-owned TV show on DVD since the Viacom split, doesn't make a lick of difference. The company is still faltering, and I don't have trouble seeing why. People are tired of corners being cut at every turn while they jump through hoops to justify the ever-bloating costs elsewhere (current feature film and TV production).

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

If this info proves true, it only reinforces my belief that we have already seen the apex of the golden age of classic TV on DVD. It's all downhill from here on out the rest of the year. I hate to be so pessimistic, but darned if that's not what I see taking place. Those of us that love vintage material are going to find that as the months go by in '09 fewer and fewer classic material (specifically shows from the 50's and 60's) is going to be offered. And some of it that is offered will continue to be mangled material that isn't worth purchasing. Maybe somewhere way, way down the line we can see a resurgence, but it's not going to happen any time soon.


Gary "thanks again to CBS/Paramount for the worst move ever made by a studio in 2008 - removing entire underscores from classic shows - truly pathetic. You've gone from first to worst in many fans' minds" O.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

In Canada where Amazon's sales are skimpy and rare, they've packaged up the 2 MTS and knocked a lofty $15-20 off the going rate. No doubt that suggests there is a sluggish market for this product.
Whether they clue in that its primarily due to their deceitful actions and the fans' desire to have an intact classic, waits to be seen.
I'd agree that we're probably going to see a slowing down, certainly from Paramount, of classic TV releases.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Is there a definitive answer though about this release? Has anyone gotten it and seen whether or not the music is replaced on all the shows, or if some shows still have their original score?

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I picked this up several days ago to provide a definitive answer for everyone, I'll give it a good going over from the perspective of a fan that's familiar with this show, this Friday if no one else has by then.

I've been too busy this week to get to it yet.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

The Amazon guy doesn't seem to understand how My Three Sons was syndicated in the mid-70s when he writes: "I also find it hard to believe that some SEEM to say that they can't remember the series but are going to buy it!"

In my area, the local station only ran the color episodes with Uncle Charlie and the adopted son. We never knew that William Frawley was part of the show. So there are people who want to get ahold of these first season episodes that haven't seen this version of the show. There were 380 episodes of the show so they didn't have to syndicate every episode to make the magic 100.

And I seriously doubt that Sumner's downturn in fortune has anything to do with licensing music. I've had a couple friends already get laid off from his other divisions. And NBC-Universal is cutting off jobs. Everything is in the dumper. The record companies and the music publishers are seeing major revenue losses. They aren't happy about giving people a good licensing deal anymore because they need their money. And if they somehow think you're at their mercy, they won't back down. Even if you prove you don't need them.

This "product" was never intended to be sold directly to the consumer. It was meant to be continually licensed to networks and TV stations.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

It might be time for a polite reminder on what we do know about the CBS full-score replacements, based on CBS's vague press release and Jon Burlingame's reporting.

It has nothing to do with music licensing costs. It's because the Capitol Music Library no longer exists, and CBS can't find anyone to pay, or negotiate with, in order to re-license those cues.

(The underlying problem being -- given that other companies have chosen to release intact TV shows that include Capitol underscoring -- an excess of risk-averse intellectual property lawyers.)

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

So the question remains... can't just the Capitol Library music cues be identified and replaced instead of the whole score?

Even that would be more acceptable than the whole score. Not by much, but a lot of the signature music in Fugitive would've been retained if things had been done that way (IIRC).

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

I used the Amazon guys qoute because he expressed himself good, he is in the UK and is talking about The Fugitive. Maybe the shows were not replayed in the UK. Read the post again.
The first five seasons of My Three Sons, B&W with Bill Frawley have been shown on cable starting in the late eighties on Nickelodeon, and all through the ninties on Nick at Night, Hallmark, The Family Channel and TV Land. The B&W's were still being shown on Hallmark and TV Land through 2003.

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: My Three Sons: The First Season, Volume Two

Mill Creek released 100 episodes of Ozzie and Harriet and the episodes from about 1960 to 64 are full of the exact same cues from M3S and are intact on their release.