Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › TV on DVD and Blu-ray › THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced - Page 15

post #421 of 937
3/4/09 at 4:50am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
When has CBS ever claimed that? They haven't. They say they put classic TV on a pedestal. You don't know the motives of CBS, so zip your lips. They're doing a great job here and still, you complain.

Let's not get carried away. If they were going a great job we wouldn't talking about this; they would have released the replacement version first. And if they were doing a fantastic job, we'd have the originally broadcast version. Not that I don't appreciate their efforts. I have now purchased the set (whereas I wouldn't have without the replacement disks.)
Reply
post #422 of 937
3/4/09 at 6:45am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

CBS DVD is dishonest, they are thieves, no better than sleazy car or time share salesman or slip and fall lawyers. They should have informed consumers that the music was replaced and scenes were removed from their products with prominent disclosures in the product description for online and catalog sales plus stickers on the product and LARGE print on the back for store shelves. Maybe many people would choose to buy it despite it being changed. Would I buy the new product? No, but I would have considered them a good company and have respect for them and would be happy to buy from them when they were able to release a product that I wanted unaltered. There are a few titles they have released since that were unchanged that I now will not buy just due to their dishonesty with the other sets. I got my money back from Wal-Mart for The Fugitive, I could not for My Three Sons from Best Buy so I do not shop there anymore. My hard earned money, my time was stolen by these thieves.
Reply
post #423 of 937
3/4/09 at 12:52pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

My replacement discs just arrived! I sent for them when Gord first posted the news.

As I assumed, it is a complete package--case, covers, discs, shrink wrap. In fact the only way to tell it from the "bad" S2v1 are the missing proofs of purchase. The discs also "look" identical with the old ones.

Now to put it in the machine....more later
Reply
post #424 of 937
3/4/09 at 1:04pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Congrats, Sylvia!!! Tell us how they are once you get a chance to view them. I'm all the way over in Florida so I figure I'll be one of the last to get the replacements.

Gary "once mine arrive I'll probably jump right to 'Escape into Black' for a comparison with the original" O.
Reply
post #425 of 937
3/4/09 at 1:16pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
Congrats, Sylvia!!! Tell us how they are once you get a chance to view them. I'm all the way over in Florida so I figure I'll be one of the last to get the replacements.

They came USPS in an over-large bubble envelope mailed from Valencia, CA.
Reply
post #426 of 937
3/4/09 at 1:32pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvia*ST
They came USPS in an over-large bubble envelope mailed from Valencia, CA.

Wow. You received the set pretty quickly. That's good. I look forward to reading your review.

Harry, your pictures are great. Thanks for sharing them.
Reply
post #427 of 937
3/4/09 at 2:20pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I've watched "Man In a Chariot," which "sounded like The Fugitive." I'm no expert, but I was grateful for every silence and every Rugolo cue.

But, as Carab noted, "Ballad for a Ghost" is destroyed. Not only has Hallie's song been replaced (she "sings" it off-screen as Kimble walks in), the footage of her singing has been cut and resumes with her "Hello" when she notices Kimble.

Janis Paige has a very, very distinctive voice, and the substitute is no match for her. Paige has always been a favorite of mine, and I really miss watching (and hearing) her sing in this episode. The replacement song is also not as "dark" as the one Paige sings. Sad, really. She was a pretty big star when she did this show.
Reply
post #428 of 937
3/4/09 at 3:36pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

My set came too. I'll watch some tonight.
Reply
post #429 of 937
3/4/09 at 5:35pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvia*ST
I've watched "Man In a Chariot," which "sounded like The Fugitive." I'm no expert, but I was grateful for every silence and every Rugolo cue.

But, as Carab noted, "Ballad for a Ghost" is destroyed. Not only has Hallie's song been replaced (she "sings" it off-screen as Kimble walks in), the footage of her singing has been cut and resumes with her "Hello" when she notices Kimble.

Janis Paige has a very, very distinctive voice, and the substitute is no match for her. Paige has always been a favorite of mine, and I really miss watching (and hearing) her sing in this episode. The replacement song is also not as "dark" as the one Paige sings. Sad, really. She was a pretty big star when she did this show.

Did this song in any form ever appear on vinyl after this episode aired? If it did, it could have been Capitol that released it and that's why it's been cut.
Reply
post #430 of 937
3/4/09 at 7:29pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I just watched TUG OF WAR and as I "pathetically" hoped, all the music is intact. "Dust" is there from the CBS library.

So now that begs the question...if one episode is unaletered, perhaps there is another.
Reply
post #431 of 937
3/4/09 at 7:59pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I just watched TUG OF WAR and as I "pathetically" hoped, all the music is intact. "Dust" is there from the CBS library.

So now that begs the question...if one episode is unaletered, perhaps there is another.

For me it begs the question, if one is unaltered why can't they all be (minus, of course, the Capital cues)? That is the real question I have if certain episodes are truly 100% in tact.

Gary "the story just gets weirder and weirder by the minute" O.
Reply
post #432 of 937
3/4/09 at 8:32pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

If one CBS cue is there then that I think puts back on the table my theory about a contractual obligation to Heyes to keep some of his music in so long as his name has to stay on the "final" version of the credits. Maybe Heyes would have basis to sue for breach if his name were on something where none of his work remained, and while he might not be so bold, maybe CBS/Paramount figures they're covering a legal base on *that* front.
Reply
post #433 of 937
3/4/09 at 11:15pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

"That is the real question I have if certain episodes are truly 100% in tact."
_______________________________________________

Well, I was watching with my wife and the phone was ringing and the dog barking so I suppose it's possible I missed a cue in TUG OF WAR. But if there is music changed, it ain't much.
Reply
post #434 of 937
3/4/09 at 11:26pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
If one CBS cue is there then that I think puts back on the table my theory about a contractual obligation to Heyes to keep some of his music in so long as his name has to stay on the "final" version of the credits. Maybe Heyes would have basis to sue for breach if his name were on something where none of his work remained, and while he might not be so bold, maybe CBS/Paramount figures they're covering a legal base on *that* front.

That very well could be. What I'm really interested to see now is S2V2. Will this be the same way? It is really odd that some TZ music has been removed and some has not. Is there any Heyes in "Tug of War?" This episode features one of my favorite "Fugitive" scenes -- Don Gordon's reaction to when Kimble relates his story about being innocent to Arthur O'Connell.
Reply
post #435 of 937
3/5/09 at 3:49am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I just scanned the beginning of ESCAPE INTO BLACK and it matches Gord's check disc in terms of Heyes during the first quick Kimble flashback in front of the diner.
Reply
post #436 of 937
3/5/09 at 6:14am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Carab, just so there's no misunderstanding between us: I wasn't suggesting that you missed any cues or didn't know what you were talking about with "Tug of War". I completely believe you. I was simply saying that if all the cues are in that one, my question is why aren't all the cues (CBS, at least) in the other episodes?

Gary "sorry for any confusion" O.
Reply
post #437 of 937
3/5/09 at 7:11am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
If one CBS cue is there then that I think puts back on the table my theory about a contractual obligation to Heyes to keep some of his music in so long as his name has to stay on the "final" version of the credits. Maybe Heyes would have basis to sue for breach if his name were on something where none of his work remained, and while he might not be so bold, maybe CBS/Paramount figures they're covering a legal base on *that* front.
What reason would Paramount have for creating a contract like that for though? They were trying to get out of problems with the music so why would they create more potential problems by doing that?
Reply
post #438 of 937
3/5/09 at 7:35am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'm only thinking of how controversy is involved when a director or writer wants his name taken off the credits of something because he doesn't like it if "his" work is not represented in the final version of the end product. We know there are costs involved to alter the end credits to give Heyes and the other library composers a screen credit, and maybe it's CBS on their own deciding that they don't want to risk trouble from Heyes that could crop up *and* they wouldn't want to go to the expense of redoing the credits to their original version to match the result of putting all original music back in.
Reply
post #439 of 937
3/5/09 at 8:03am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Isnt the horse already out of the barn with season one? Even if they put all Heyes music into the remaining episodes, couldnt they still get into trouble with season one? It seems to me that the damage has already been done. If this is the case, why cant they release the rest of the seasons like the first? Inquiring minds want to know...

Dave
Reply
post #440 of 937
3/5/09 at 9:41am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Color me surprised: My replacement discs just showed up!

Gary "wow, I'm really shocked they got to me this quickly" O.
Reply
post #441 of 937
3/5/09 at 10:08am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Color me surprised: My replacement discs just showed up!

Gary, I'm so gunshy by now that the first thing my brain interpreted from your first word was "colorize".

So how will you approach the evaluation of the discs? Do you plan to check out an episode that is knowingly heavily laden with TZ cues? I'll be watching this thread like a hawk for yours and other fan's reviews.

What's been discussed so far has been very helpful.
Reply
post #442 of 937
3/5/09 at 10:27am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Regarding whether there is a "contractual obligation" for CBS/P to include any Heyes music. Highly unlikely, because scores have been replaced in several theatrical movies.

Jerry Goldsmith scored a film called "Legend", but his score was replaced by one from the rock group Tangerine Dream. Later, Tangerine Dream's score for "Chinatown" was thrown out by director Roman Polansky and replaced by one from . . . Jerry Goldsmith.

Another famous example: Alex North's score for "2001" was replaced by what was the "temp" score drawn from classical music by director Stanley Kubrick.

If Jerry Goldsmith or Alex North's music can be thrown out, don't think Mark Heyes' work for a DVD release can't -- don't forget, Goldsmith, Lalo Schifrin, Bernard Herrmann et. al. saw their work used without credit, just royalties. What legal ground do you figure Heyes would have for getting credit with no music used?

In short, CBS/P's only obligation to Heyes is to cut him a check for doing the work. If they hate the work, they don't have to use it -- but they do have to pay him.
Reply
post #443 of 937
3/5/09 at 10:45am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Surprisingly, my set arrived today, making what must be a record trek from California to Virginia.

I haven't started watching yet, but from just looking at the case, CBS/Paramount has corrected another fan complaint...

The new cases have all 4 discs in the center of the case, leaving the episode descriptions readable without having to pop a disc out to read 'em.

I hope this will become the standard for CBS releases in the future.

Now, back to the music debate!
Reply
post #444 of 937
3/5/09 at 10:55am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by buford2
Isnt the horse already out of the barn with season one? Even if they put all Heyes music into the remaining episodes, couldnt they still get into trouble with season one? It seems to me that the damage has already been done. If this is the case, why cant they release the rest of the seasons like the first? Inquiring minds want to know...

Dave

The reason, according to Burlingame, deals with the cue sheets. The cue sheets for Season One listed all of the various cues used, as well as their precise locations in each episode. This made it easy for CBS to identify legally which cues they could use and which cues they could not use. The cue sheets for the second season, however, were not as detailed. They listed the amount of music used from each specific library, but did not list the precise locations of where the cues could be found. This is why Heyes was hired to rescore Season Two. CBS felt it would be too difficult to identify by ear which cues were which.

Assuming they did try to identify cues by ear for the replacement sets, it is a mystery why some CBS-owned cues have been replaced and others have not. Maybe they had to lay off the guy hired to identify the cues halfway through the project because of the economic recession?
Reply
post #445 of 937
3/5/09 at 11:16am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

RIck, I agree with everything you're saying, but where I think the wrinkle might come in is the fact that if the *credits* still have to say Heyes because they don't want to pay the costs of redoing the credits, then that would theoretically create a different scenario from the North 2001 one, because North's name didn't end up in the credits of 2001. If it had, and Kubrick used nothing of his work, then North would have had a right to register a loud complaint or take some kind of action.

Meantime, my replacement set arrived today and all I needed to be reassured was the original music for the teaser sequence, and the familiar Fugitive theme for the Act 1 Opening of "Man On A Chariot" to be satisfied (and I quickly cross-checked with the old set to make sure I was hearing music restored). I give a thumbs-up to CBS/Paramount for the effort and the quick service in shipping (I'm on the East Coast).
Reply
post #446 of 937
3/5/09 at 11:37am

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I see your point, but then I expect there is still the random Heyes cue in the new set. What's more: even if not one note remained, Heyes would be foolish to make a stink.

There will no doubt be future opportunities in the rescoring field -- not every show has the fanatical following as The Fugitive, and not every show depended so much on the music. Example: I don't know who wrote the score (as opposed to the theme) for the first season of Cannon, but if it had to be replaced by a Heyes score there would not be near the uproar there was here. I, for one, wouldn't have cared because the original is so bad.

That being the case, why bite the hand that hires composers?

Also, it couldn't be all that difficult to splice the old credit frame in where the new Heyes credit is now.
Reply
post #447 of 937
3/5/09 at 12:39pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I just finished "Man On A Chariot" and I am now going to confirm that Goldsmith's "The Invaders" and "Back There" from TZ *IS* left in, in this episode. Listen carefully to Ed Begley give his final summation to his students starting at 41:24. It is not silent as I think Carab earlier indicated (I hope I'm remembering him correctly), you can distinctly hear a quiet section of "The Invaders" that corresponds to about 5 minutes into "The Invaders" track on the TZ 40th Anniversary CD. AND, on top of that starting at 44:05 after one brief bit of Heyes I think, we then get "Back There" left intact through the tense moment of Kimble eluding the reporter and hiding in the library including the one part of "Back There" I most associate with "The Fugitive" other than the harpsichord part (the cue when we see Kimble on the ladder correlates to 10 minutes into the "Back There" cue on the TZ CD).
Reply
post #448 of 937
3/5/09 at 12:40pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Example: I don't know who wrote the score (as opposed to the theme) for the first season of Cannon, but if it had to be replaced by a Heyes score there would not be near the uproar there was here. I, for one, wouldn't have cared because the original is so bad.

Tom Scott and John Carl Parker were involved in scoring "Cannon", two names that are not exactly up there in the pantheon of A-list composers like say, Jerry Goldsmith.

I partly agree with what you are saying as there are some series where the musical scoring ("Star Trek", "Lost in Space" and "Twilight Zone" immediately come to mind) is indelibly tied to the series but in others it's just plain bland and undistinguished. But however banal and forgettable "Cannon's" music may seem (I'm unfamiliar with it myself) it was still written with the stylistic flourishes of that era which tend to enhance our enjoyment of these old shows. Interjecting synthesizer chords and attempting to capture the flavor of the era is just asking for the result to end up sounding at best a bit hackneyed and pompous. Especially when we're talking trying to bridge 40+ years. The impassioned television scoring accomplished by maestros like Fred Steiner, Dominic Frontiere, Pete Rugolo, Alexander Courage and others is very nearly completely lost on the current generation of composers IMO.
Reply
post #449 of 937
3/5/09 at 12:47pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
I just finished "Man On A Chariot" and I am now going to confirm that Goldsmith's "The Invaders" and "Back There" from TZ *IS* left in, in this episode.

Well that is very encouraging and welcome news. Tonight I'm putting on "Back There" 10 minutes into the score to check on the cue you mentioned.
Reply
post #450 of 937
3/5/09 at 12:49pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

And just to follow up I believe the material from "Back There" that starts at 44:05 of "Man On A Chariot" would correspond to the early part of the "Back There" cue in the first couple minutes (before the familiar harpsichord part).
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: TV on DVD and Blu-ray
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › TV on DVD and Blu-ray › THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced