THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced - Page 13

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Thanks Michael, Wayne, Jeff and Jim. When this person shared this thought with me last night it really made a lot of sense to me. Again, that's not to say what fans and bloggers did wasn't important, just that the Variety article probably had the most sting to it because of it's circulation and reputation amongst Hollywood. It's just a theory, but it seems like a good one to me.

I also think the lack of communication is easily the biggest issue many have with the studios. Like Jim said, if we knew what the situation was with the CBS cues, it might make a huge difference in how we feel about it.

Gary "take care, guys" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I think without all the returned sets, angry letters, and fan outrage, the Variety piece would have simply been embarrassing. Here today, gone tomorrow. Given everything working in concert, I have no doubt it had an effect. But the replacement program wasn't geared toward Variety readers; it was geared toward the fans who bought the sets. Consumer action gave the bad press validity, not the other way around. To me no speculation is necessary. Fans are the folks responsible for the replacement program. We have only to look at who's receiving free discs in the mail to know who primarily brought about the change.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Yes, this is what I want most of all at this point. Hopefully Gord, Carab, Jon Burlingame, Variety, somebody, anybody, will get to the bottom of this. There could be an issue that none of us would have ever guessed that led to the decision to keep CBS-owned cues off the replacement discs. By keeping quiet about this, it makes it appear as if there was no good reason, IMHO.

And if they don't have a good reason, a good lie would suffice, just as long as it's something that makes people like me happy.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The communication angle on this has long been a thing with me since I started collecting TV/DVD's. If only there were some kind of a news post board, forum, on the 'net where the studios would give some information about upcoming releases, info about substitutions, edited episodes, stalled or unreleased shows, etc., imagine what it would do to the thread length of this Fugitive posting alone.

I know that certain information is proprietary to studios but it would sure save many posts of guesswork about what's going on with these releases. I guess that if there were such a site, the studios would have to consider sales impacts if they posted certain information about backscores being replaced.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I can certainly see where such disclosure would potentially be a double-edged sword for the studios. Taking this issue with the Fugitive as an example, we can see a positive and a negative for CBS all depending on what the explanation/reason is for them excluding the TZ cues. If the reason was something they really couldn't control, or something that was going to cost them a boatload of money then most fans could appreciate the predicament. But if the reason was not really defensible or solid, it could cause even more backlash.

Gary "still, in the final analysis of things, I'd like to see a bit more info provided in general" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The trouble is, often the people who speak for companies have no idea of the particulars of specialized issues like this, and so it's virtually impossible to find someone who has the answer. And if they can be found, they probably don't have permission to speak officially for the company.

Since the replacement discs are not officially out yet, at least as far as we know, Paramount may have no reason to believe there's any issue to be addressed as of yet.

It's still so early in the process.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I know this a bit off topic, but I am sure everyone here is a David Janssen
fan.
Has anyone heard when and if Harry-O will come to DVD and if anyone will digitally remaster the Richard Diamond series ??

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I do believe that the Variety article was the primary catalyst for this turnaround, though I also agree that the fan support played a part. If anyone feels the studio did this ONLY to please fans and have no regard or investment both in their private and public REPUTATION within the industry, they are being somewhat naive.

That Variety article took the rants off the message boards, which few in the industry take seriously, and LEGITIMIZED it in the eyes of the mentality that runs the studios: IMAGE is just as important as profits no matter how big your corporation is. Bad reviews on Amazon and letters from fans are nothing compared to the tarnish that article put on CBS/Paramount and all their ideals about putting vintage television on a pedestal. Yes, the studios are a BUSINESS, but there has always been the underlying impression, IMAGE, no matter how misguided, that they are ARTISTS first and lowly merchants a distant second. That Variety article publicly asked CBS/Paramount in front of all its competitors and to the world: "Is this how you treat your ART?"

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

All of this talk makes me lean to the "trying to save face" theory. That's the theory some, including myself, previously ranked in the "ridiculous" category. Under this hypothesis, CBS retained some of the Heyes cues on the replacement discs, and presumably on S2V2, to help prove that its original decision to replace all of the music wasn't completely off the wall — because in actuality it was completely off the wall but they don't want the world to know that. This theory is starting to sound plausible at this point.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

That's a very big possibility. My bet is after everyone starts receiving their replacement sets, and April rolls around and the S2V2 sets have been on the shelves a week or two, the grumbling is going to kick in and it's going to be just as bad as before, maybe even worse.

Many people here talk about giving CBS credit for issuing free replacement sets, but it will be a different story when everybody settles in to watch an episode and they realize it still doesn't work for them because the Heyes music jumps out of nowhere here and there, continuing to ruin their enjoyment, just in a different way.

Amazon will get jammed with one-star reviews from folks who feel they were fooled into buying S2V2 because CBS stated it was like the first two volumes. They'll say their biggest problem was with Heyes music and many won't understand why some of it was still retained. I haven't viewed the check discs, but I have heard the Heyes music, and I'm certain it will stand out like a sore thumb mixed in with Rugolo. Many people will surf the net looking for answers and end up here and find out that for all anybody knows, there was no good reason for substituting the TZ cues for Heyes.

Keep in mind that the excuse from CBS during the first backlash was they changed the entire score to provide a seamless experience. Maybe they're trying to prove a point with the replacement sets, even though they realize now there was no reason for Heyes' services, but they feel compelled to save face and soften their embarrassment level?

Maybe the content of the replacement discs is actually what CBS intended to release the first time around, but then scratched that idea because they didn't believe Heyes worked mixed in with Rugolo? Maybe we're giving them too much credit for the replacement program? Maybe they didn't take everything back to the drawing board like we thought? Maybe they already had this all along sitting on a shelf? Maybe that explains why the TZ cues are absent and Heyes' music is still present and Heyes' name is in the end credits? The contents of the replacement sets may have been completed before Burlingame wrote his article that stated there was no reason to remove Rugolo and CBS library cues? Maybe what we're getting is actually CBS' first experiment in destroying one of the best TV shows of all time? Maybe all they have to do for the program is press a few thousand DVDs with material that was in the bag a long time ago and mail them out? If this is true, then this replacement program is not much of a goodwill gesture at all. CBS will be out $10,000 tops, but they would have succeeded in getting everyone back on board for a $1 million-plus profit. And we would be sitting around thinking they went through a whole bunch of trouble to redo the music when they actually did nothing.

With all of the above in mind, yes, it certainly would behoove CBS to provide an explanation because a reasonable one could definitely help lessen the next backlash.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I think people returning their sets and not buying the set pretty much legitimized the complaints. One only had to watch the Amazon sales ranking drop (and the price with it) after people realized the music had been replaced, or watch the ranking climb (and the price with it) immediately after the replacement program was announced.

In any case, I've pontificated my opinions and theories to the point I am all pontificated out. I'll be back when the replacement sets start showing up. It'll be interesting to see how folks react to them.

Cheers for now.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

One more thing ... these replacement sets are not "free." I've made the mistake of saying this in other posts along with others, but they certainly aren't free. After reading the tvshowsondvd article, I immediately ordered a copy of S2V1 so I could send out for the replacement set. It cost me $30, and that is hardly free. And those who bought it when it first came out but had it hidden away because they couldn't stomach Heyes also paid money. CBS is not providing these sets at no cost.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

It's easy for someone who hadn't yet spent any money on the set before the replacement program to say it's not free. People who are only buying them now never felt that rage at being deceived and taken for their money--money unknowingly spent on crap, money which, until recently, was basically lost if they'd opened the package. It wasn't like they could unload the set used even if they wanted to. They weren't selling much on eBay or Amazon.

So yes, speaking for myself, I consider the replacement set free, because I was already out the money no matter what; now I'll have two sets, only paid for one, and it cost me a paltry forty-two cents.

Edit: And before I take a break I want to clarify my claim about The Twilight Zone 40th Anniversary OST set not sounding as good as the isolated DVD scores. I should have been specific and said it was because of the echo the mixer added to the CD release. It might sound "better" on a stereo, but when mixed back into The Fugitive with other non-reverb cues, that CD junk will stick out like a sore thumb.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

No, you could have gotten your money back after opening it. I know somebody who opened one and, after finding out the music was altered, returned it and received a full refund. He claimed it was defective. Who could argue with that?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The law says what the law says. I'm not going to debate what others think the law should be, or choices infividual vendors make in terms of refunds. And I'm certainly not going to be contrary for the sake of arguing.

Peace and out.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

So If I order The Fugitive S2 Vol 1 from America and ship it to UK I won't be able to get replacement disc?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I don't think the replacement offer is valid in a country other than the US. You might have to lean on any Stateside friends you might have to handle the transaction for you.

One other point I'd like to make:
I realize that the term "Heyes" is a shortcut used here on an Internet forum and elsewhere to identify the music that CBS/P had created to replace the original music.

But let's not forget the other two people inserted into the credits, Ron Komie and Sam Winans. Some of their stuff, no doubt, survives as well. And I challenge anyone to know, or even care, which is which!

Harry

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

JQuirk, I purchased my original S2V1 back in June of 08 from Amazon.com, opened it watched the first episode and knew something was wrong and did not realize the music was changed until i went to the reviews about a week later.

I called Amazons customer service line and told them I was sending it back because all the music had been changed and I was not happy with the product. They said OK, no questions asked and I know of many customers who sent theirs back to Amazon.

I just recently purchased it again through Columbia House and got it 4 bucks cheaper than Amazon, even with the shipping.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I dont know which is worse, if they had released a butchered season one or releasing season one like it is. If they had released season one with the Heyes music, at least I probably would have been expecting them all to have that music. Having season one in near original shape definitely made it worse for me. Well, I still look at is as at least they got one season right.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I think a lot of retailers were somewhat understanding regarding THE FUGITIVE S2V1 set, taking back opened packages from many customers in an effort to provide customer service for what was basically a flawed product.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

LOL, Harry. Really, who would know who was responsible for what and where? Maybe Komie and/or Winans remixed the music for the release? We all know how in these days every person who had something to do with the production of a film gets their name slapped onto the end credits, even the person responsible for wiping the snot away from Lindsey Lohan's nose. Maybe Heyes wrote all of the music, Komie and Winans assisted him, and then Komie and Winans inserted Heyes' music into episodes?

I think another interesting aspect of this whole thing is the four-volume box set getting released March 31. Assuming the Season One volumes included in that set are the same as the ones previously released, then wouldn't that defeat the purpose of altering the music in the Season Two sets? I mean, it's all one package, and if CBS felt compelled to remove the CBS library cues from S2V1 and S2V2, then why not remove them from the Season One sets included in the box set, as well?

Yes, my friends, what we will be receiving in the mail soon could very well be a product that CBS abandoned months before the original S2V1 was released. It's starting to make a lot of sense. CBS last year told tvshowsondvd that "we kept the original theme song, but decided it would be better to rescore full episodes to give viewers a seamless, consistent experience throughout."

How would they have known mixing Heyes in with Rugolo was bad without hearing it first? Maybe their original instructions to Heyes and company included keeping Rugolo and losing everything else? Then when they viewed the finished product, they decided to replace all of the music "to give viewers a seamless, consistent experience throughout." This would explain why the TZ cues are missing on the replacement discs. I mean, if they decided to redo the music the right way, the Jon Burlingame way, why not plug the TZ cues back in along with Rugolo? The answer could be, because CBS never attempted to differentiate the CBS cues from the Capitol ones when it set out to get S2V1 on the market in the first place, they wouldn't appear on the replacement discs because CBS never actually took anything back to the drawing board to repair.

With that in mind, the replacement sets could very well be something CBS felt did not "give viewers a seamless, consistent experience throughout," but they're giving them to us now to create the illusion that they went back to Square One to rectify the problem as best they could.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Even if that cynical take is true, the reason why it shouldn't matter is because "Fugitive" fans are of necessity already used to "conflicting" styles of music given that no single "Fugitive" episode ever had one composer's vision across the entire episode. And so many other shows all the way up to the early 80s when the rules were changed to mandate an original score for every new episode of a show and no more "tracked" music cues also reflect how from time to time you can get conflicting styles of different composers whose earlier work gets tracked as library music (think of many episodes of Star Trek where they didn't commission an original score and how you'd hear Sol Kaplan followed by Fred Steiner and then maybe George Duning at various junctures). That's why the idea of Rugolo mixed with Heyes I know isn't going to bother me the way all Heyes no Rugolo does.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I agree fans of "The Fugitive" are used to conflicting styles of music, but I strongly disagree that having Heyes music in there "shouldn't matter." Sure, we're used to hearing music from various artists in the series, but the music was consistent in that it required a studio orchestra to make and all of it had a distinctive 1960s feel to it. The original cues have heart and soul, regardless of their origins. The cues from TZ episodes "Back There" and "The Invaders" are thrilling and were used heavily. Without them, my enjoyment will still be compromised.

Contrarily, the Heyes music sounds like it was composed yesterday. It doesn't fit with the era. It's bland and it's cheap. There is no feeling to it. Regardless if an episode of "The Fugitive" contains 100 percent Heyes music or 20 percent, the enjoyment for many will be diminished.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

My point on the "shouldn't matter" was only that the CBS/Paramount concern about "seamlessness" was a non-issue with me as far as the merits of all Heyes vs. Rugolo/Heyes was concerned. Like everyone, I want the consistency of the original cues selected, but I'm again approaching this more from the sense of gratitude of what's back in after having heard how unsatisfying the "seamlessness" of all Heyes is.

Believe me I am not a fan of new music underscore decades after the fact, and that includes theatrical movies especially. I don't like the fact that John Williams did new stuff for the Star Wars Special Editions (that's just one of many reasons why I don't like them), and I also don't like how the new cut of the 1965 movie "Major Dundee" replaced the original score with a different one (thankfully the DVD gave us the option of seeing the new cut of the film with the original score).

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

This is all absolutely correct. I did a lot of work on the release of catalogue titles for FHE. In one case, the people putting together the DVD cover and inserts were positive the studio had--and was releasing--a long-missing Chan film. It took four months for the information to filter down that it was the Spanish language version which was in the package.

In another, the booklet for Betty Grable film had five large photos of a woman in a speciality number who looked a bit like Grable and despite the people doing the artwork and people furnishing the photos knowing about this mistake in the proof stage, none of them had the authority to do anything about it.

IMHO, no one who knows or finds out anything has any power to affect the final release of product on DVD. It would go counter to the entire studio culture to have one person be "in the know" about every aspect of a release.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

You couldn't argue with it, but I doubt highly he got a full refund. The best they could do would be a straight exchange.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

You do not know what you are talking about, I got a full refund, every penny, why would someone want to exchange a defect for another defect?
Can't someone get rid of this troll?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Same here! I sent mine back and got every penny, including shipping, refunded back to me.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Actually, I'm considering sending the one I just bought back for a refund because I don't think I'll be happy with the replacement set. If my suspicions are correct, these replacement sets are merely CBS' first experiment in ruining this series. You know, the version CBS itself concluded was not even as good as the version containing 100 percent Heyes. Some will be placated by this "goodwill" gesture, while others like me will not accept a half-hearted effort. I don't believe CBS actually tried to right any of the wrongs. They're simply providing us with a product they apparently aborted early on in the game, something CBS itself believed failed to live up to "pedestal" standards. If they did make an effort, that would have been reflected in the replacement sets. It is clear this is not the case because the TZ cues are still absent along with that song specifically written for "The Fugitive" that appeared in "Ballad for a Ghost."

How could CBS claim its latest effort proves it puts fans on a pedestal when the reality is the fans continue to be shortchanged, and apparently for no good reason other than laziness and greed?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I agree, I have absolutely no use for any Fugitive DVD's that have original music removed or replaced for any reason. I enjoy Season 1 DVD's only because about 30-60 seconds of music was replaced in the whole season (I'll Never Smile Again and I think some music in the strip club scene in the Where The Action Is episode and some in the Garden House episode) but it was replaced with similar music from the period, while not as good as the original it was not new age synthesizers. Apparently minutes worth of Heyes synthesizers are still present in every episode of S2V1 and most likely V2. I hope someday soon another company will release The Fugitive and My Three Sons so everyone can again enjoy these shows again.