THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced - Page 9

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Speaking of "The Twilight Zone," if as much care went into other TV show DVD collections as was put into that one, the world would be a much better place.

Now that set has it all, and it is obvious Image or CBS were unconcerned about plastering the word "Complete" on the packaging for it. It is complete. It has everything, and then some. I was more satisfied with "The Twilight Zone" collection than any other TV show DVD sets. The sets for Paramount's "Star Trek" TOS were pretty good, I thought, but those don't even come close to "The Twilight Zone" collection, in my opinion.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I agree with you 100%. You can pick an episode of The twilight Zone and not only has it been digitally remastered with audio straight off the mags, but the special features menu for ANY episode might read:

Rod Serling Lecture commentary
actor commentary
Interview with actor
isolated score
Radio Drama for that episode

and more! Sometimes there are multiple commentaries. Plus it has supplemental discs.

I'v never seen another set that pound for pound can stand with The Twilight Zone.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I think the issue with dialog drop-outs on A Penny For Your Thoughts undermines this statement somewhat.

I mean I love the Twilight Zone Definitive Edition sets, its just there a lot of small irritating errors on them (largely due to CBS physically raping the negs for rerun broadcasts with some easily fixable errors on Image's behalf that should have been caught before replication) that prevent total perfection.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

It's as close to total perfection as any DVD set its age I have seen.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

10-4 on that, Carab Looking at the release from all angles, documentation, transfer Q ( ), extras, it's hard to beat this one. It's one of my prize sets on the shelf.

"Dreaming of a similar complete-series release of the Fuge with completely-restored score, extras, documentation"

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

For those missing the TZ cues....I certainly can understand your disappointment. I think I'll be happy with just the Rugolo cues being inserted. However...having the Nu Ventures set...I'll have to listen for these TZ cues as I must not watch TZ enough to pick up on them. Outside of Rugolo's music which is the show's signature...I only seem to recognize the Outer Limits cues from season four. I should just continue to be blissfully ignorant of the TZ cues but you guys have had such an interesting discussion on the topic that I have to go and conduct some research.

Now that I think about it...I bought the definitive collection about a year ago but have yet to break the shrink wrap on the set. Now is probably a good time to do so.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Another great thing about "The Twilight Zone" collection is the episodes contain all of the bumper materials, the spots with Serling talking about the following week episodes, promos for other shows like "Gunsmoke," even Serling peddling products like cigarettes.

Watching an episode on this collection is like watching it when it originally aired. The only things missing are the actual commercials.

The extras on the set are tremendous. The spot from "The Liar's Club" was hilarious.

It would be nice if this sort of treatment was afforded "The Fugitive," as well as other old shows like "Mission: Impossible," "The Wild, Wild West," etc.

The first set of "The Wild, Wild West" had some pretty good extras, including optional introductions for each episode from Robert Conrad. The other seasons released on DVD, however, only included the episodes. I was angry with CBS/P when they released the four-season box set because that included the two "Wild, Wild West" TV-movies. The only way to get the TV movies was to buy the box set, but that doesn't work for people like me who already purchased the individual sets. I guess CBS/P wanted to double dip fans, and I'm sure some die hards obliged them.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I didn't. I own neither official versions of WWW movies or Return to Mayberry from the TAGS complete series. All CBS/Paramount did was drive me to other places to get what I wanted, and after I faithfully supported all 12 sets with pre-orders--that's a fine "thank you" to the very folks who made the complete set releases viable.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Hello, I am new to this forum also and am astounded at the info. you guys have
on the Fugitive music fiasco.

There is on bit of music on the first season I really love in "Fear in a Desert City" where Kimble is looking for a hotel and William Conrad is narrating.
It is a sound of doom or dread or paranoia, very low !

If someone can check this out and let me know if this will still be on the Season 2 discs. I know this is being kinda silly, but I hate to think this sound is gone.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Hello, I am new to this forum and astounded at the knowledge on the Fugitive music fiasco.
There is on particular piece of music on "Fear in a Desert City" in act 1, where Kimble is looking for a hotel with William Conrads Narrating in the background.

The sound is of doom, dread and paranoia....is this piece of music going to be a part of the replacements DVDS and future seasons ??

Keep up the good work !!

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Man, it's just as well that I have never seen any of the S2 episodes of "The Fugitive" because in checking the davidjanssen.net site again it appears that there is little, if any tapering off of TZ cues relative to S1. And if I was as familiar with their placement as say Carab or Gary, their absence could really drive me batty. Judging by the list posted i nthe above site, perhaps S3 offers less TZ cues, but it's hard to say. In the example below, for "Moon Child", I'm certain I would recognize every one the cues listed, especially where "The Lonely" is concerned, as it is my all time favorite TZ score. How I would love to know which cue was actually used. The cue borrowed from Steiner's "100 Yards..." is almost certainly the 5-6 note ascending phrase which I've heard in S1 episodes and fits beautifully in each instance. So strange, as already indicated--cues that made it in the first two volumes would appear to be completly absent in the S2 volumes.

52. MOON CHILD

Twilight Zone "Back There" cue (Jerry Goldsmith)
Twilight Zone “King Nine Will Not Return” cue (Fred Steiner)
Twilight Zone “A Hundred Yards Over The Rim” cue (Fred Steiner)
Twilight Zone “Perchance to Dream” cue (Nathan Van Cleave)
Twilight Zone “The Lonely” cue (Bernard Herrmann)
Twilight Zone “Walking Distance”cue (Bernard Herrmann)

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I've already got my letter mailed to three execs about this, asking why the cues from the CBS library were nixed and if it was an error can they be replaced or at least retained in season three sets (though I fear it may be too late already for S3V1).

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

If you decide to write any more letters, and if you didn't mention this specifically, here's what I think is the key thing the execs need to be made aware of. It's in the last few paragraphs of Jon Burlingame's excellent article for the Film Music Society.



Gary "this thing can be done right - it can be done right" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'm out of my depth when it comes to knowing the specific Twilight Zone music cues that you guys are talking about. However, I do know that some of the music cues used in The Twilight Zone are library music even when there's a credited composer.

That doesn't explain why TZ didn't have a problem using it and The Fugitive does but might its library music origin be the problem for The Fugitive?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

That is indeed Rugolo music, a variation on the Fugitive theme.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Has someone in authority stated that CBS actually owns the TZ cues or are we assuming they do since the music is part of the CBS library? I assumed they did too, but now that I think about it, I've never heard anyone officially state that, as of February 2009, they own the cues.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Received my set of S2V1 in the mail today, so now I can send out for the replacement discs.

However, I finally had the chance to sample an episode with Heyes music and all I can say is, "My God."

The Heyes music is absolutely horrible and does not fit whatsoever with "The Fugitive." What in God's name was CBS thinking? All I watched was "Man in a Chariot," and with Heyes music replacing the Rugolo and TZ cues, it became something else. It sounds like music that could have been written for a 1990s Saturday morning cartoon or a more modern History Channel documentary special about people hunting for Sasquatch.

It's cheap, it does not fit with the era, and is so bad it makes the show seem bad. After finally hearing the Heyes music, it shocks me CBS had the audacity to retain some of this garbage in the replacement sets. I've tried my best the past several days to give CBS/P credit for actually trying to rectify the problem, but I'm afraid many fans like me are not going to be happy whatsoever about being subjected to Heyes music for the remainder of this DVD run. In fact, I've decided I will not purchase S2V2 if the TZ cues were needlessly extracted from that set as they were for the replacement discs.

I watched a few first-season episodes over the weekend and realized the TZ cues were used a lot, and mostly in critical suspense sequences. If those cues would have been pulled from those episodes, those episodes would have been ruined.

This whole thing is starting to smell like a money-making scam to me. I'm starting to believe the reason the TZ cues were pulled from the replacement sets is because there were various artists responsible for composing them. By keeping the TZ cues out of the replacement sets -- and possibly S2V2 sets -- CBS probably figured it could make more money because no royalties would have to be paid to those TZ artists. This is an outrage. CBS owns the TZ cues so can do what they want with them, but CBS apparently decided to keep them out so it wouldn't have to pay royalties. That has to be the reason.

If CBS was able to find an expert to identify the Rugolo cues, that expert had to have the capacity to differentiate the TZ zones, he just had to. That means there is a money reason -- not a legal one -- from excluding the TZ cues. Either that, or CBS is trying to warm everybody up for the final season where they plan on taking out all of the cues from "The Outer Limits" because they have no plans on trying to buy the rights for them from MGM.

This is unacceptable, money-grubbing activity on behalf of CBS/P where the fans are expected to pay the price. I don't want to buy half-assed DVD versions of "The Fugitive." Most fans don't.

"The Fugitive" is one of the best television series of all time. Its final episode was the most-watched TV show up until that time. CBS needed to handle the DVD release with a lot more class than this. Sure, they're offering replacement discs, but at the very least this series deserved to be released unmolested. It was bad enough CBS/P didn't arrange to include extras, but at least they could have given us fans who waited years for it to come out on DVD complete episodes with the original music instead of this lousy synthesizer music. CBS/P has treated perhaps the "Citizen Kane" of TV shows as if it were "Plan 9 From Outer Space." What they did is tantamount to removing Miklos Rozsa's score from "Ben-Hur" and replacing it with cues from "Scooby-Doo."

Then they expect us fans to just be happy and live with the changes. I guess we're all supposed to be grateful they're offering us replacement discs with portions of the music restored. I'm not grateful. I'm still mad. They made a mistake and they should have went the extra mile to rectify this atrosity.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Yeah, this was one of several things that really helped elevate my frustration level with CBS/P. I was also somewhat irritated when S1V1 of "The Fugitive" was released because it made me realize CBS/P was splitting the seasons into volumes, apparently to maximize profit. I complained about this online, I'm sure, but at the time had no inkling my concern with "The Fugitive" DVD releases was about to triple because of the music issues.

But getting back to splitting the seasons, it still strikes me odd they did this with "The Fugitive" when other series were being released in full season sets. You would think the market for this would be no different than other shows like "The Wild, Wild West" and "Mission: Impossible," but why did they get full season issues and "The Fugitive" split season releases? Furthermore, the full season sets for those other series only cost about five bucks more. While none of them had 30 episodes in a season like "The Fugitive," they still came pretty close. Season One of TWWW had 28 shows.

It has to do with money, in my opinion. Some bean counter probably told the boss CBS could squeeze "Fugitive" fans for a little extra juice by splitting the seasons on DVD into volumes. Later, some bean counter -- maybe the same one -- probably suggested even a bigger bundle could be made by replacing all the music.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The only episode I watched with Heyes was "Chariot" too. I couldn't take anymore. In fact, I should say for the record that I am just assuming it was Heyes in those spots on the check discs where CBS and Capitol were removed. It sounded like the same kind of stuff so I have no reason to think it's not Heyes.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Yeah, I'm sure it is Heyes. Basically, CBS took Jon Burlingame's advice, but only to a point. In answer to your earlier question, Carab, CBS does own the rights to the TZ cues.

I strongly suspect the only reason the TZ cues -- and possibly other CBS Library cues from other shows -- were excluded from the replacement discs is because CBS does not want to pay out any additional royalties on top of whatever it cost to have Heyes redo the score. This, in my opinion, is a giant slap in the face to the fans.

This will be somewhat forgiveable in my eyes, however, if the CBS library cues are included in the S2V2 set, but something is telling me CBS plans to abandon quality for the remainder of this DVD run. We all tend to fool ourselves sometimes into thinking companies like CBS might not know what they're doing. For instance, we entertain notions like, "Maybe they don't realize they own the rights to the TZ music?" They know what they own. Don't kid yourself. Again, if they were able to identify the Rugolo cues, they were able to identify everything else. They were hoping the replacement sets with all the Rugolo music restored would shut everyone up.

What's funny is CBS, in a statement to tvshowsondvd, indicated that now it not only puts classic television on a pedestal, but also the customers. I think the more politically correct statement is CBS puts profits on a pedestal, and quality out the window. If there was no money in "The Fugitive," CBS would not have offered replacement discs. Too many of we fans, however, are soft touches in the sense that we suddenly believe CBS does care about us when the replacement disc program is announced. They care only about our money, and they knew they had to do something to get us back on board so they can make a couple million more dollars off us. Put it this way -- if CBS really cared about the fans, the replacement discs would have been like the Season One sets that contained virtually all of the original music.

They only re-inserted the Rugolo cues because that wouldn't affect their bottom line. They already had to pay him royalties for using his theme music in the initial S2V1 release. The only hits they're taking on this is for re-editing the music and the mailing of the replacement discs. Woe is poor billion dollar empire CBS-Viacom.

The reality is the fans are the ones taking the hit because we're not getting the quality we demand. It's like we're being conned by a car salesman who tried to sell us a wreck but we didn't go for it. Finally, the salesman fixes many of the problems with the car, except the car is still missing a windshield, has no gas tank, and headlights are absent. "Everything else is fine," he tells us. "Look at all of the trouble I went through to get the car to this shape. You should feel bad for me and realize I care about you. Now c'mon, show me your money. I did my best."

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Season two volume two is in the can, more than likely. It's just waiting now for its street date. So there's no reason to think the TZ cues will be there if they were not in S2V1. The mentality would figure to be the same. I have a hunch they're being expunged from season three volume one even as I write this.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Season 2, Vol. 2 has had a street date for quite some time now: March 31st. So yeah, it's absolutely in the can.

I have no idea why CBS did things the way they did with the replacement discs. I know I do believe Burlingame's original thesis, that the cue sheets were unorthodox and the music department couldn't sort it all out. But it does seem weird to me that they could go back through and pick out the Rugolo scores but not also take the time to pick out the CBS Library vs. the Capitol Library. The reason is a mystery to me until they say something officially. But there is no doubt they own the TZ cues. That was never in question.

Gary "see ya" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I said it before but it all depends on each individual cue. Just because a cue is in an episode of The Twilight Zone that credits Herrmann or Steiner or Van Cleave, there still might be a few library music cues in the episode too.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Thanks Jim.

Also, the cue immediately preceeding the above cue, when Kimble turns around and heads back towards town. Is that Rugulo also? I think it is.
I just love the way it slowly builds and reaches that peak at the end.

Dave

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Well this thread has certainly taken a little bit of an ugly turn!

As just a casual Fuge fan -- who nonetheless could not contemplate viewing this series without the Rugolo cues and themes -- I'm content to give CBS/P the benefit of the doubt here.

I still have not received my S2V1 set yet (should come in today), but when I do I won't be viewing them. I already know they're "damaged goods". I'll just turn around and send off for the replacement discs. What I expect to find when I finally do view "Escape into Black" and some of my other favorites from this set is a pristine, uncut, video presentation (remastered from the original negative) and a "flawed" but (hopefully) presentable audio track.

The bottom line is, I already know going in that I'm not going to have the same overall quality of presentation that was afforded the excellent Season 1 sets. My question will be "Is the presentation 'good enough' to service the story? Does it feel like The Fugitive?" If I -- as a casual fan -- can answer "Yes" to those two questions then I will order S2V2 and any future sets. If the answer is "No" then I won't be going forward. But I definitely will not even be thinking about forming an opinion until I experience an episode or two from the replacement discs. IMO, trying to form an opinion without experiencing the final product is counterproductive.

Now I admit that ordinarily I wouldn't be giving a Classic TV set this much latitude. The difference here is that CBS/P has acknowledged that they made a mistake and are making an extreme effort to rectify the problem. The whole Heyes thing has been an unmitigated disaster, and they have partially acknowledged that with this replacement disc program. I'm therefore at least willing to keep an open mind on the sets until I have an opportunity to experience them.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

BTW, when I picked up the last copy of S2V1 from a B&M store in my area to take advantage of the replacement offer, I dropped it at home and the tabs holding the first and last disc broke off. How crappy is that?

Any ideas where to get a blank replacement disc case of the same parameters (holding 4 or 6 discs?) that I can put the new art in when I get it? I'm one of those luddites who still keeps their discs in original or individual packaging (because I often trade stuff back in).

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I appreciate what CBS Paramount has done. They've definitely taken a step in the right direction. But after they tried to pull a fast one on "Fugitive" fans and considering that they're still not being forthcoming about why they still left certain cues out, I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. All they've done is belatedly supply a partial fix (for a limited time only) to something they intentionally messed up.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Yeah, but it is easy to pick out the TZ cues. I know for a fact that a lot of the music from the TZ episode "Back There" was written for "The Twilight Zone," and that same music was used a lot in "The Fugitive."

In Jon Burlingame's great article for the Film Music Society, he indicated the cue sheets for Season Two listed the amount of CBS and Capitol cues used per episode, but did not identify the actual instances.

For instance, only 39 seconds of Capitol music was used in the episode "Enter into Black," but the cue sheets did not specify where the 39 seconds could be found.

But as Burlingame indicated, these Capitol cues could have been found with minimal time and effort.

I'm looking forward to some follow-up stories on this latest development from Burlingame and/or Gord. Maybe the next article could be entitled "'The Fugitive' Music Debacle: Act II?"

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

John DeAngelis said: All they've done is belatedly supply a partial fix (for a limited time only) to something they intentionally messed up.

________________

What is involved in CBS/P in terms of doing it (the replacement program) and implementing it, is pretty huge, man. Some folks won't have a problem with the changes, some folks will accept the missing cues with a grimace and others will reject it. That's fine. But no one can say Paramount didn't make a huge gesture in trying to restore what they felt they could. They're out some big time bucks, and perhaps they should be (after what they did), but I for one can appreciate what they're trying to do despite its shortcomings in effectively restoring the original.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I appreciate what they did. too. I'm just not ready to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure you've heard the expression "Once bitten, twice shy".