THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced - Page 7

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

For me, I grew up watching The Fugitive and The Twilight Zone, but to my young ears (I'm in my early 40s now), I thought the music had been composed for The Fugitive because pound for pound it seemed to me like the music composed for TZ actually had more drops in The Fugitive. Of course when it became a hobby for me years later, I learned the truth about origins, but it would be interesting to see percentage-wise what the drop ratios are.

Okay I have to stay away from this thread for the rest of the afternoon or I am never going to get today's pages done.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

^ Agreed, Gary. I gave those type of scenes as examples and omitted the lovey, tender scenes in that list, but certainly they apply as well. I mentioned the Leighton's love scene from OUTER LIMITS as I know it was used in several places in THE FUGITIVE.

This line of thinking originated as I dug out a VHS this morning. It happened to be DOSSIER ON A DIPLOMAT from the fourth season. The opening teaser with Kimble being put on the spot in the embassy with Gerard making his presence known used the main theme music from THE OUTER LIMITS. All that was missing was the whine of the "tone".

That particular music is lovely, and in 1967 it probably fit the scene perfectly, but it seemed so odd to me as I viewed it, being now well-familiar with Frontiere's score for THE OUTER LIMITS.

It's almost as jarring as watching "The Forms Of Things Unknown" and hearing Frontiere's THE INVADERS theme coming at you. It nearly makes you want to look at Tone Hobart's fingers to see if he's an alien!

As I said, I'd love for none of this to be a problem and to have the episodes as they aired. Hearing that "other" music is at least fun for people like us who appreciate such things. But my point is I don't think it'll be a deal-breaker for me if I'm denied hearing it - as long as I'm not also denied the "soul of the series", the Rugolo cues.

Harry

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Harry, that's an excellent authored post. Then, that's the norm for you on the Bd

Having said that (here comes the other shoe...maybe I should be in Washington DC ), I go along with Gary's take on the cues.

Some of you know here that I'm currently traveling through this series with Mom as the viewing companion. My routine is that I watch the show at home without Mom, keeping several episodes ahead of when I watch them a 2nd time at her house. With this show, as you all know here, it's such a level above almost anything else I've seen on US TV, it's a treat watching the eps a 2nd time. Anyway, as I'd mentioned previously here, Mom's a retired music teacher with a Masters degree obtained in NY. We started watching the CBS/P S2V1 set but (to my ), she asked me to swich our viewing to the original as-aired versions of the show. While she said that it was evident that the replacement composer did his best, it was light-years different than the original score.

I then proceeded to explain the "library-cues" issue to Mom, and let her give me her take on a comparison with/without the cues in a couple of eps. She always preferred the original library cues to the replaced cues, as do I with this show. Perhaps if this were another show, the effect of listening to replacement cues would be considerably less of an impact to us.

We just watched "Escape to Black" today. Mom was amazed at the script talent, acting, all of it. Every time I watch one of these eps over at her house, I hear "this one was the best one yet"


Classic, Scott

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Thanks for relying my question about the cues. As for the ears, with both of them "shot" (hearing-impaired, no joke), kudos to Motorola for that cell phone with a wide vol range

Same here on that "When the Bough Breaks" cue in that closing scene. Imo, there's just no replacing cues like that one for that scene in this show.

I sincerely don't intend to be a bad sport about the partially-restored CBS/P release. I know that for a lot here, the restored Rugolo music is the main "deal-maker" for you all. I just see it differently with the library cues not included in the re-release.

I will also add my sig or otherwise contribute to any group effort to shout out a "Kudos" to CBS/P for listening to their customers and am happy about the restored S2V1 version for those here that regard the replacement of the library cues as a non-deal-breaker for the set.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Thanks - I try...


Jeff, I hope you'll be getting the new "hybrid" DVDs and then will let us know how both you and "Mom" feel about them. We value her input too!

Harry

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

10-4, Harry. I just "call 'em like I see 'em". It's a shame my "strike zone" varies like "Gumby Man" Just kidding.

Interesting that you mentioned that "try the S2V1" idea. I mentioned that very idea to Mom this afternoon. Since I was one that bought the S2V1 set before getting the scoop on the replaced score, I sent in my letter today for the exchange set. I'll let you all know her take on an A/B comparison test.

Jeff "Will always give a shout out to another Time Tunnel fanatic" W.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Gee, even Tony Newman likes these music cues. Here he is tuning in an episode of THE OUTER LIMITS to hear those great Dominic Frontiere cues!





Harry

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I watched Twilight Zone's "The Invader's" and in the category of being completely subjective, I think Goldsmith's score was more effective when used on The Fugitive than for the very episode for which it was composed. Texture changes are a big reason I feel that way; the music editing was better and seemed more effective with The Fugitive. Goldsmith's brilliant work seems to resonate with the on-screen presence of David Janssen better than Agnes Moorehead, in my humble opinion.

That'is why it's so hard for me to see at least some of these cuts go. It's like they were tailor made for The Fugitive.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Stop it Harry You're making me pull out that TT set again. Great screen cap!



That's it, you said it perfect for me, dude. It's hard to describe it but that says it for me. As a 1st-time viewer of this show, those library cues are a 100% perfect fit for the mood and atmosphere of this show.

Another example of a recent (21st century!) series, "Firefly", for those who are familiar with this short-lived SciFi/"western" flavor show, there's absolutely no way that replacing that score would have been tolerated in a DVD release. Thank goodness it didn't happen, as far as I'm aware...that is. "Browncoats" out there that saw it in its initial airing may know of music subs but it's my take that the score is original from my listen of the DVD set.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Glad I could help with the cues. I'm no expert, but it's hard to miss those. They are clearly not Rugolo, and yet they are powerful cues for powerful moments.

The worst kept secret here at this point is that I agree with you, Jeff. I can't get too excited about the remastered discs if the vast majority of the CBS Library is expunged.


Gary "very tired tonight - gotta get to bed" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

That's a 10-4 on this, Gary. I'm certain that the Rugolo restoration will boost sales with S2V2 and that's great for those on board with it. I'll know where I'll fit when the replacement S2V1 arrives.


I heard that. It's after 12am in Dallas. "ZZZzzzz" I'll dream about a complete-series Fugitive set released with all music exactly as originally aired loaded with Janssen Extras. "We are such stuff as dreams are made of."

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The great thing is, if you've already bought the original release, it costs you exactly 42 cents, a piece of paper and an envelope to get the replacement set. Folks are out nothing if they don't like it. I understand they'll be those who may reject it because at least some, if not all, the stock cues are missing. And I can respect that. I'm the first one to go "ouch!" But I love the show too much and want to see this thing get a full DVD run now, all 120 episodes, even if some parts of them might be a little hard to stomach.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Ditto on your points regardless of my take on the missing cues. That's why I'm curious to check out the restored S2V1 set before deciding on buying any further future releases. You know, Carab, if it turns out to be a very few replaced cues, I'll "fold like a cheap suit" & go for future CBS/P sets

I want to support this one too. For me, it's about the last "buy at release to support" action that I'll take for TV/DVD's. The reason is that, as we all know, if you wait awhile, those prices drop considerably.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

As a purist who cringed when background music on a jukebox was changed in season one, it's hard for me to swallow my standards, but I would rather return the goodwill the studio has shown in restoring what they can, and see this series head for the finish line, so my children and their children will someday see these beautiful transfers, even if they are only singing at eighty percent. It's too great a show for me to be stubborn and dwell on the tinge of disappointment I admit I still feel when confronting the reality that my beloved Twilight Zone cuts may not all be there.

But I believe the big picture is, for now, more important than my pining for missing cues, especially when I think back to what I believed not so long ago--that the show's legitimate life on DVD was over. Done. Dead.

Now it has a chance. I'm choosing to view kicking out for the rest of the series like buying a starter house. Sure--maybe I won't live in it forever. Maybe I don't like everything about the house. Some things downright bug me about it. But the equity I accrue is undeniable, and when I do finally sell the house, my equity allows me to get a bigger house, maybe even the one of my dreams.

I have the same hope for The Fugitive. If we can all come together, support the release--imperfect though it is--and get this run out, then who knows what the future holds for the rights issues. Meantime the series, in a more or less respectable form, will be in circulation. To me the odds seem better right now that some day every missing element can be corrected than the odds seemed a week ago to expect Paramount to suddenly announce that not only would they mail me a free set, but a set with much of the music restored. It's still amazing when I think about it.

The going may get tough when we come to stock-filled episodes like "Landscape with Running Figures." But Kimble never lost faith. He kept running even when it looked hopeless. I, for one, don't think it looks hopeless anymore. I'm ready to dig in my wallet and keep running with the good doctor, hurtling over Heyes if necessary, through season two and beyond.

I hope all true Fugitive fans do the same.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

We also have no clue what Seasons Three and Four might bring. The notes or cue sheets or whatever could be in an entirely different (perhaps better) state that CBS/P and its lawyers won't have any problems, other than the jukebox music. I hope that's the case.

We have Season One in pretty good shape, underscore wise. The current situation hopefully is only a problem for Season Two. Let's see what the future brings before we condemn any of it.

Maybe a music expert will step forward and offer their services to CBS/P!

Harry

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Sounds like they could also use a clearance detective willing to go the extra mile.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

That's been my contention for a long time now. I'm relatively sure they could find someone, or a small group of someones, that would be able to discern the different cues and create a new sheet for them so that they would only be forced to expunge a truly minuscule part of the backscore in question (Capitol cues), rather than expunging larger chunks they actually do own (CBS Library cues).

Gary "ultimately, that would be the best solution" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Ditto.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'm not unreasonable and I'm taking the same action you are, Jeff. I've sent in for my replacement discs and am more than willing to actually see if the restored Rugolo is enough for me to really enjoy the sets and continue buying more releases. I honestly do hope my ears will cotton to this new set. I really want to like it. But I'll just have to wait and listen for myself to know for sure.

I'm also still for letting CBS/P know that we appreciate them making this effort, and also seeing if we can't nudge them to find a way to keep even more of the cues in Season 3 and 4 (if they get that far). I sincerely believe it wouldn't be as difficult a task as they think [see my post above and read the article I linked in post #162 on this thread].

Gary "just my two cents" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Gary, I will be watching closely for what you have to say about this set. You and I seem to have about the same feeling towards the whole thing. I got rid of my set, so I am reluctant to put out the money again until I have a better idea of what to expect. I would like to be able to at least tolerate it also. Your early post about Escape into Black being mostly library cues did not set well though. Anyway, it will be interesting to see.

Dave

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Yeah, "Escape into Black" is a great, great episode and it does make liberal use of CBS Library cues. A lot of Goldsmith TZ music in that one. The real kicker is that according the Janssen Archive there was only one 39 second Capitol Music cue used in the episode. So technically, that's all that CBS/Paramount would have needed to remove.

Gary "Dave, that is a really important episode and I'm very anxious to see how it plays, or better yet sounds, on the replacement disc - it will probably be the first one I go to once I get my dvds" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Touche, Beatlejam!!!!!!! NEITHER SHALL I!!!!!! My Nu Ventures Video collection and all of my other Fugitive VHS tapes recorded off-the-air back in 1994-5 shall remain in my collection as well!!!!!! Your reasons for retention--particuarly the Barry Morse intros--are valid IMHO!!!!!

S2, V1 is one belated birthday gift I am looking forward to treating myself to in the weeks to come!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

It sounds like CBS/Paramount only went half way, restoring the Rugolo stuff and not the stuff from the CBS Music Library. I guess now it's for each fan to decide if that's enough. It's probably not for me, as those cues really mean alot. Regardless, I do appreciate CBS/Paramount trying and making the effort. It's just unfortunate it has to come down to this with such a truly great, classic show.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'd say CBS/Paramount went 80%, certainly more than halfway. But it's understandable if that 20% is a dealbreaker for some folks. Any kind of percentage is really subjective, particularly when some cuts carry more weight than others depending on a person's history and love for them.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

"Oh no, it's still the Mona Lisa, don't worry! We were just legally obligated to widen her smile and put some highlights in her hair."

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I wonder why NU Ventures didn't have any of the music issues rights problkems? I wish we could get a hold of the guy who ran Nu Ventures, Alan Grossman. I spoke with him one and he seemed like a very nice fellow. I would love to hear from him on this.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I haven't seen the replacement DVD's yet so I will hold off giving my opinion until I see what they have done. But from what I have read here, I sure I won't be 100% happy with them but will be happier than the first issue.

I look at it like this, I think Paramount is at least trying. And a few months ago, I didn't even see that. All I saw was a dead series release. They had to spend some big bucks to remaster what they had done, and issue replacement DVD's and cover. In this economy, I applaud them for that because all they had to do was to drop it and be done with it.

I am not happy that the song in "Ballad for a Ghost" is still changed. But I am happy that at least they tried to fill it in with a song that does fit somewhat instead of cutting the scene out altogehter like they did in the Gomer Pyle and Odd Couple series. For that, I give them an A for effort.

I also miss the TZ cues and feel they have the same feel to the series as does the scroe composed for the series. But, given the music sheets were not in order, I have to look at their side of the issue also. I only hope that the season three and four episodes have there music shhets in order. I can't see the episodes like , "Landscape", "Ill Wind", and "Wife Killer" with out them. In "Wife Killer", when Kimble ask Johnson, "Did you kill my wife?" and Johnsons noods yes and Kimble falls back, the look on his face, the emotion in that room, and the music all go hand in hand.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

My Nu Ventures videos are nearly 17 years old. It's possible when they were produced the rights had not reverted to limbo yet (if in fact they actually have--I still say Paramount is erring on the side of caution, but that could simply be my wishful thinking).

It is also possible that Nu Ventures had the rights because the language in the contract covered videos but not DVDs. There's tons of possibilities--and we'll probably never know the truth.

The David Janssen Archive is fantastic. I applaud the list of cues, but they are not complete. One example of missing music is in Landscape with Running Figures. Twilight Zone's "The Grave" was used, among others.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

And with that, the first 10 videos released by Nu Ventures were awesom as far as picture quaility. After that, they started using old worn out copies or copies from 16mm film. The color episodes looked very bad when Nu Ventures released them. Very faded and washed. At least Paramount is giving us copies off of the original negative. Lets jsut hope one day we get a Blu-ray release and by then all of the music rights will be fixed. I don't think that 16-17 years ago, when Nu Ventures released the series, that the music rights thing was that big of an issue. We didn't have the share ware that we have now via the internet to download music illegaly. I think the download age has brought rights issues to the front and got us into the rights issues over everything now: including The Fugitive.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Perhaps not as BIG of an issue, but music rights have caused problems in home video even back in the VHS days.

I recall several old Universal titles that had that "HOME VIDEO VERSION, SOME MUSIC HAS BEEN RESCORED" legend on them, like Spielberg's 1941.

There was an issue in the STAR TREK tapes of "Goodnight Sweetheart" being removed from "City On The Edge Of Forever".

And I'm sure there were others - but you're right, it's all been brought to a fever pitch in the age of DVDs. Everyone wants a piece of whatever pies are out there.

Harry