THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced - Page 6

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I wonder if Paramount sent out the disc for Gord to view as a set of test discs so they could hear our comments on the sets and fix anything else before they released the finished product to the consumer? Like a "test DVD" to see what still needs corrected. What does the cover of the DVD's look like Carab: do they resemble the original issue DVD's or are they blank on the cover? If so, I wonder if we should contact them and thank them for one but also ask them to restore the original footage to "Ballad for a Ghost". My fear is if they cut this, and since the song was written for this episode like the ballad in "Ill Wind", I fear the same for "Ill Wind". They cut a lot of the music in Gomer Pyle and The Odd Couple in the same way I have read.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I was just thinking about "The Judgement".

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

The music in the epilog in that final scene REALLY sets a mood for that moment. Is that a Capitol score or is that an actual Fugitive score?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Gord could speak to the discs better than I; to my mind logic seems to suggest that since the replacement program is active, the check discs have been or are close to finalizing. That tells me that things are locked. It certainly means that Paramount, even if they desired our feedback, would not have time to take it, incorporate it, and finalize the changes in time for a replacement program already active.

I like to believe the replacement program is itself a direct result of Paramount listening. And we here at the forum were a significant part of that voice they listened to. I do believe that, and so I think you are absolutely right in a way, but also think the time for tinkering with this set has past.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

There is a cue on The Fugitive soundtrack entitled, "The Day The Running Stopped," and I am listening to it now!

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

For me, CBS/Paramount did a good job only if they restored both the Rugolo cues and the ones from the CBS library, as these are the cues that they own without question. I understand about the Capitol cues. I'd rather they just leave those moments silent, but if they want to use Hayes music in those places, I can live with it. I guess I'll just have to wait for the replacement discs to judge.

In any event, it does look like CBS/Paramount is slowing its releases of classic series. In another thread, a user reported that the Streets of San Francisco has been abandoned, as perhaps some other series. I wonder if any of that is a by-product of the Fugitive fiasco, a way of recouping costs from this disaster.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I agree with you. I don't want to, but I do

I just hate to see "Ballad" cut but since they did redo the set, I can't baulk at them. I just have to assume since Paramount went to this effort to please the fans they looked into this episode and the song has some "legal issues" they couldn't clear up and they couldn't restore it.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Personally I can't stand the Hayes music ONLY because it isn't "The Fugitive" score. But, all in all, Hayes did do a fairly good job of attempting to capture the feel. He just couldn't do it with the heart and emotion that Rugolo did.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

My feeling about not restoring Ballad is that even if they bothered to revisit the rights issue with a sane mind, restoring the footage and repackaging the segment proved too cost prohibitive given what they already spent to produce the first set, the new music library, and now they had to change the music and run a new batch DVDs, not to mention the cost of inserts and shipping the whole mess out to God knows how many people. I think it was just a cost issue, probably the same cost issue that led to them not modifying the credits to include Rugolo's name where it should be.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

jde28 said: For me, CBS/Paramount did a good job only if they restored both the Rugolo cues and the ones from the CBS library, as these are the cues that they own without question.

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This is what has me confused. At first I thought stuff like The Twilight Zone was from the CBS library, then when I discovered it missing in at least three spots (specifically portions of the Goldsmith cue from TZ's The Invaders, I figured I had it wrong and the cut had to be Capitol, which is what I think I may have said in my review. Now I'm told by more than one person that the cut is CBS, and they have unquestioned rights to that library. But if that's true, why are portions of the cut missing in at least three places (and counting)?

Okay--I have to go do my real job now. But it's fun talking with you guys.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

To be absolutely fair, it's probably because the economy is in the dumps and selling half-seasons at a premium while a lot of series are getting full seasons or full runs for cheaper are having an effect. Not to blame CBS/Paramount for this at all (given the very nice remastering), but that doesn't really encourage people to shell out cash as easily as they would for other releases. It might make them wait for the eventual re-release that happens to be cheaper.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

If Streets Of San Francisco was selling enough for them, they'd keep releasing it. The Fugitive has nothing to do with it. Like Nick said above, the economy is probably the biggest factor.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Read my posts #124 and #137 again. I've mentioned this several times, but maybe some folks aren't reading it or simply don't believe it. Nevertheless, I'm convinced, based on sources I've read, that the problem lies with the unique way in which the FUGITIVE sheet music was put together. It's not an insurmountable problem (if the sheet music design is the problem), but it is a time consuming one where an expert would need to be called in. Regardless, I and others have explained this several times now.

There's no reason I'm aware of why any TZ music (which is a part of the CBS, not Capitol, Music Library) should need to be expunged. I believe it's just the result of CBS/Paramount being overly cautious because they haven't had someone come in and identify every piece of music in each episode so they know what's from the CBS Library (that they do own) and what's from the Capitol Library (which they obviously don't own). John Burlingame is the first one I read who explained this. The article is here and explains this problem fully. I guess the only issue left is whether or not that's really the problem. Without someone at CBS/Paramount stepping up and telling us, this is all we have to go on. But it seems legit to me.

Gary "there's no doubt the Rugolo music is the majority of the backscore in these episodes, so at least a good amount of the music that was missing before has been restored" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Regardless of the ongoing debate on how much original music they put back in, I think it would send a very strong message to CBS/Paramount not to frak with original music if they got a ton of forms for replacement discs on S2V1.

To that effect, posting the replacement form link on Amazon reviews, and other review sites would help. Get the word out as much as possible. I'm going to send an email to the TV section editor at Entertainment Weekly magazine, which ran a brief blurb about fan outrage to the S2V1 music switches a few months ago.

An impressive barrage of replacement order forms would be the strongest signal possible that replaced music in classic TV shows is unacceptable to fans.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I guess I am somewhat of a purist when it comes to this show. This is my all time favorite TV show. As far as jukebox music, car radio music etc., that music is not part of the underscore. For me, the underscore is what sets the mood for the entire show, and for me its all about the mood. I dont even notice the incidental music. Of course the acting is excellent and the stories are great, but its the overall mood that I love. As soon as I notice a cue is missing or has been changed it kills the mood because I am used to hearing it the way I heard it 40 years ago (whoops, showing my age!) Its really hard for me to get past that. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Anyway, glad this forum is here and I didnt realize there were so many fug fanatics out there!

Dave

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Excellent thought, Wayne. I concur!

Gary "that really is the best message that can come out of all this - don't mess with the original music, at least for sure don't mess with entire backscores" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Glad you are with us, Dave. And I can't disagree with anything you wrote. Your opinion is just as valid as the one from the individual who cares nothing about the backscore. To each his own. But as a longtime and huge fan of the show myself, I completely agree with you. The incidental music (radio, band in background, etc) doesn't bother me. This is what the Season 1 dvds were all about. No big deal. But the underscore does set the mood and it's tough for any of it to be replaced.

Gary "again, glad to have you with us Dave" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Just to throw this out there: would a possible lawsuit cost more than the money paid to Heyes to rescore the first half of Season 2 plus the costs of replacement discs? Not to be too silly about this, but wouldn't it be more logical to release the series as is and let the people do all the hard work to sue?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Talking about music problems in future seasons on DVD (assuming we get that far).....in the season four episode, "Goodbye My Love," the woman Kimble is seeing is a singer in a piano bar. At the beginning of Act I, she sings "Strangers in the Night."

Hmmm, what do you think the odds are that that'll make the cut?

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Like all of you, I'm grateful that CBS/Paramount has restored the Rugolo music. I'll get all the DVDs they put out of this series, but I'm not throwing out my Nu Ventures tapes and tapes from other sources, either.

It's important to me to have the proper score on the most memorable episodes in some form. And the Barry Morse intros are nice to have, too!

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Gary you were talking about Back There a couple of times and the power of suggestion made me go get out my Twilight Zone set just to watch it again...I love when Russell Johnson's eyes pop and he says "You devil" or whatever to Booth....hahah.

That is another score I associate with The Fugitive more than the Twilight Zone. I can't believe I have never transferred it to my iPod...number 4 on my list of things to do today...

(I think the Twilight Zone DVD set is probably my favorite in terms of getting it right with quality and tons of special features...I can't think of another set I have that comes close).

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Yep, it's a tremendous cue and it pains me to think I won't be hearing it in these new replacement discs. Like you, I've come to associate several TWILIGHT ZONE cues more with the FUGITIVE than TZ. Amazing how that works.

I have to say that Image has put out some incredible dvd sets. The one other set that came to mind when you talked about TZ was THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW sets. They rival the TZ ones, and both were put out by Image.

Gary "half the fun of watching the CBS/P shows is hearing the CBS Library stock music" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Somewhere...somehow...David Janssen and Barry Morse are smiling down on us during this brouhaha...

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Or perhaps they are watching the entire series uncut with me in my living room on most nights.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Wait - there's music replacement on THE TWILIGHT ZONE??????

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

^No.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

At least in some cases, music from The Twilight Zone, used in season two volume one has been replaced by synthesizers.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Jeff, I'm 99% sure that's not a Rugolo score. Can't identify whether it's a CBS Library cue or a Capitol cue, but it's not Rugolo unless it's something he did that isn't a part of the FUGITIVE soundtrack that I own (which is an official version).



Again, good ear Jeff. That's not a Rugolo score either. Either CBS or Capitol.



Three for three, Jeff. None of those are Rugolo scores as best I can tell, and that means there's a great likelihood that this last example you asked about will be changed on the new sets. And it's a beautiful piece of music too.

Gary "sorry I didn't get back to you quicker on this, I was kinda waiting to see if someone else would answer that last one for you since I don't have the new replacement discs yet - but we will all find out for ourselves soon enough" O.

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'm now thinking that I'm of a slightly differing point of view regarding the "other" music in THE FUGITIVE.

We know that they used a ton of cues from TWILIGHT ZONE and OUTER LIMITS. *At the time*, in the mid and later 1960's, these cues were somewhat separated in time from their origins and we hadn't heard them to death and "just yesterday" in another show. Syndicated reruns of shows were done in daytime and off-time - there weren't a lot of TV channels to air this stuff, particularly hour-long dramas. Most of us had three network affiliates if we were lucky, and their free time away from network programming was nearly as limited as it is today.

So when a show like THE FUGITIVE re-used music cues from an early '60s show like THE OUTER LIMITS or THE TWILIGHT ZONE or GUNSMOKE, it was done with the distance of time, away from its origins. How many of us, watching a FUGITIVE episode in 1967 would remember that the lovely "longing" music we were hearing was composed for a love scene between the Leightons in "The Architects Of Fear" episode of THE OUTER LIMITS. Even if we HAD seen that episode, it was likely years since we heard it - and then only once or twice at most.

I believe that to be the key in the whole re-use of cues in THE FUGITIVE. Pete Rugolo wasn't around to write new stuff for seasons two through four, and the stuff he DID write and arrange was starting to get a little long in the tooth, and in some cases not totally appropriate to the scenes in question. Thus, whenever there were dream scenes, drugged scenes, semi-conscious scenes, weirder music cues became necessary, and the TWILIGHT ZONE and later the OUTER LIMITS cues came in mighty handy and were well-used in those places.

Today, forty odd years later, most of us are coming at these old series much differently than we did in the '60s. We have the ability and advantage of screening these whenever we feel like it on DVD, and as often as we like. So those music cues that were seemingly used in just the right places for THE FUGITIVE back in the day, might now sound a bit out of place. I know they do for me. Whenever I hear them in THE FUGITIVE (on VHS or in the first season DVDs), it almost takes me out of the series as I recall where they originated from.

Bottom line here is that while I'd love to have these episodes with the music intact and as they were produced and aired, I don't think I'll miss the non-FUGITIVE cues as much as I normally would. Perhaps this is all wishful thinking and trying to look for positives, but I don't think I'll mind too much the Heyes stuff replacing the TZ, Capitol and OL cues. It's really the Rugolo stuff that I was missing in the first-issued discs.

As mentioned here by several others, Heyes actually did a decent job coming up with the proper "type" of underscore music. His use of synths is questionable, but probably all that could be expected within budget.

I'm actually intrigued by this possiblity - that all of the music we'll hear in these episodes were actually composed *for* THE FUGITIVE, even if some of them were done forty-some years later.

Harry
...letting his mind wander, online...

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Harry, I can appreciate your take on this whole thing. And differences are what makes the world go round. I'm just of the opposite opinion in this case. And I don't think that invalidates either one of our thoughts on this. But to me, those other cues were just about as important as the Rugolo music. Certainly not as important, but pretty darned important to me. I referenced the one portion of your post above to comment on as well. I think you are correct when you specifically talk about some of the TZ and OL cues. They did come in handy in the "dream scenes, drugged scenes, and semi-conscious scenes" you mentioned. But there were many, many other cues used for softer sequences. Just look at the ones Jeff Willis mentioned. Those are heartfelt scenes where CBS or Capitol cues come in very handy. I'm just saying I'd stop short of thinking that all the additional cues used in the show were only good for mind-altering type sequences. Some were used for tender moments very effectively, IMHO.

Gary "appreciate your thoughts, Harry - good stuff to consider" O.