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post #121 of 937
2/19/09 at 12:42pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Ouch. If the CBS Library cues are missing in mass, this might still be a tough pill to swallow. Not as bad as before, obviously. But some of those cues are extremely important and well known, and help make the show. But your mileage may vary.

Gary "hate to think the TZ music is not there" O.
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post #122 of 937
2/19/09 at 12:56pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Are the CBS Library and the Capitol library one in the same? If not, and depending on which library the TZ Cues came from, you may be in luck in still hearing them in The Fugitive.

Yeah, TZ was a CBS show, but that doesn't mean they didn't use other stock cues from other libraries. I would think that any cues specifically composed for TZ are CBS property, and easily usable.

...and just how did Image get away with releasing TZ unmolested anyway with all of the music rights problems that CBS is now facing from this one library of frequently used music cues?
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post #123 of 937
2/19/09 at 12:57pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The Obsolete Man, I can tell you Goldsmith's cue from The Invaders was largely removed in the shows I saw.

I remember when I got that Twilight Zone soundtrack, I acutally labelled it as being from The Fugitive in my iPod, because it was used so much during the show, I associated it more with The Fugitive. That's probably the toughest cue for me to lose.

Does anyone know if the music in Tug of War appeared in another show? By and large it's still there.

The nice thing is, if you've already bought the set, you're only out the price of a stamp to find out if the restoration parameters float your boat.

And, to answer your question, Image got away with it because no one brought an action against them. From what I understand, ownership of the cues is in question, so until ownership is established, I doubt they'll have a problem. Even then I doubt they'll have a problem. Paramount is acting on the side of caution.
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post #124 of 937
2/19/09 at 1:00pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Obsolete Man
Are the CBS Library and the Capitol library one in the same?

From what I understand, no. When anyone talks about the CBS Library they are talking about the music that was created for CBS shows like GUNSMOKE, TZ, HGWT, THE OUTER LIMITS, and the like. The Capitol Music Library is actually another library of very specific cues that was utilized by many shows, including of course THE FUGITIVE. In theory, the only thing that should have to be removed would be a scant few seconds of music from individual episodes that utilized any Capitol Library cues. But because THE FUGITIVE used a different way to create their music sheets than most shows, it's hard to determine what's what. I believe that experts could do it, but that's apparently not the option CBS/Paramount chose to use. So it looks like we will be getting the Rugolo music but perhaps not all the CBS cues that CBS actually does own. Strange, I know.

Having said all that, they are offering free replacements, so it's hard to argue. I'm taking advantage of the offer and would suggest others do the same.

Gary "oh well, what can you do?" O.
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post #125 of 937
2/19/09 at 1:07pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

"Tug of War" utilizes less CBS Library music than most of the other episodes from Season 2, so it shouldn't sound very molested.

Gary "the TZ cues will definitely be the hardest to lose for me, especially some of the Goldsmith scores" O.
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post #126 of 937
2/19/09 at 1:17pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I certainly can't attest to its accuracy, but the "David Janssen Archive" has a page on the music cues used for "The Fugitive" and may provide some indication of what might end up being replaced.

The David Janssen Archive
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post #127 of 937
2/19/09 at 1:20pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Well, early replacement assumptions I made after watching MAN IN A CHARIOT did not pan out after having watched eight episodes. Perhaps seeing the entire set--and indeed the rest of season two--will reveal its replacement logic.
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post #128 of 937
2/19/09 at 3:23pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I checked BALLAD and the footage is still missing. Also there is a replacement bridge at the beginning of Act II. I wish they could've simply repeated one of the music bridges they felt they owned here instead. There is also some replacement music down in the mine in IRON MAIDEN.

The low key Heyes I can stomach; it's when he starts blaring those horns that I cringe and run for my fan-restored copies.

Personally I would have just used Rugolo, even if I had to repeat it, rather than this new synthesized material. But there may have been drop issues, so I have to give them the benefit of the doubt since they made this effort. It's amazing that a simple act like this has increased my tolerance toward the replacement music, but I believe goodwill deserves goodwill.
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post #129 of 937
2/19/09 at 3:49pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Thanks for this continued info, Carab. It is much appreciated. I wonder if you've picked up on any CBS Library music that has managed to escape the cutters? I'd really like to know if the Goldsmith cues from "Back There" and "The Invaders" are intact. They are used a good bit in Season 2 and have really morphed, at least in my mind, into official "Fugitive" backscore music.

Gary "I hope the replacement discs are ready to go and we don't have to wait too, too long before they are shipped out to us" O.
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post #130 of 937
2/19/09 at 4:15pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Thanks should go to Gord for his trust and generosity of spirit.
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post #131 of 937
2/19/09 at 5:14pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

So the statement in the FAQ on tvshowsondvd about the replacement discs and the new release S2V2 is not really accurate, that these are like S1 as far as replacement music? My seaon 1 DVD's had all the Twilight Zone and other original cues intact. I am going to pass on this. Just putting back most of the Rugolo music does not work for me. I am able to enjoy the S1 DVD's, they replaced only the brief seconds of pop songs. To replace critical cues does not make sense. They know fans approved of S1, why not just do S2 the same way? I have real nice VHS copies of Season 2 that will last me the rest of my life. It's not like you can watch the shows over and over, I watch them once or twice every couple of years. And they trashed My Three Sons with Heyes crap so I say to hell with CBS.
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post #132 of 937
2/19/09 at 5:16pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Well, I must admit that I am dissapointed to hear that "Ballad" is still cut and that the music change doesn't mirror the Season 1 sets, but like a few others here, I am at least glad that Paramount did this as an act of goodwill.

Carab, I appreciate your review of the DVD's. In your opinion, are they liveable? I know they are not our regular Fugitive but can you at least watch them and find them ejoyable to watch unlike the others? How about Gerards theme? Is it there?


Since The Fugitive isn't the only TV show to come to DVD with music changes due to property rights, I can't complain to much. It looks like Paramount is at least TRYING to do their best. The picture quaility is superb!
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post #133 of 937
2/19/09 at 5:22pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
Ouch. If the CBS Library cues are missing in mass, this might still be a tough pill to swallow. Not as bad as before, obviously. But some of those cues are extremely important and well known, and help make the show. But your mileage may vary.

Gary "hate to think the TZ music is not there" O.


I agree with you. The "TZ" plays an important part as does the score for the show. I know it has already been mentioned, but the 3rd season "Landscape" uses a lot of the other scores! It won't be the same if they change them to something else. Does any one know why they were able to uses these scroes in the Season One sets but had trouble getting them squared away on Season Two?
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post #134 of 937
2/19/09 at 5:42pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

The word on the music fix doesn't seem to have gotten out on Amazon.com
reviews for Season 2 vol 2. There are lots of negative reviews and one star
ratings.

-g
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post #135 of 937
2/19/09 at 5:57pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by derosa
The word on the music fix doesn't seem to have gotten out on Amazon.com
reviews for Season 2 vol 2. There are lots of negative reviews and one star
ratings.

-g
Regarding S2V2 reviews on Amazon, a comment has been added to just about each review to mention the replacement program for S2V1, and to say that S2V2 should contain much of the original music just like S1V1 since that was the information given in the replacement news FAQs.
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post #136 of 937
2/19/09 at 6:54pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

JLKINSER asked: Does any one know why they were able to uses these scroes in the Season One sets but had trouble getting them squared away on Season Two?

I don't know. Perhaps the language in the contract covers individual seasons, but in my heart I feel that they realized they might be in trouble after the season one genie was out of the bottle, then overreacted with season two. Now they are being cautious to leave out any cues whose ownership is in dispute.

Yes, I have heard Gerard's theme at least twice so far. I have learned with this set however, that just because a music cue appears once, does not mean it won't be replaced in another spot.

And let me be clear about something. When I said in my review that a "vast amount" of the music had been restored, I was speaking in terms of a comparison to the prior season two volume one set. And that would be true. Now if you want to compare the replacement discs to the standards of season one, I would say, roughly, 75-80% of the music in the episodes I have seen has been restored, the bulk of that being Rugolo. But that is just one man's estimate. Everyone is going to have a different reaction to the set, but I am safe in saying it is a great improvement.

And if someone knows how I can change my one star rating for S2V1 on Amazon, I'm all ears. I edited my review with an update but was not allowed to adjust my stars rating.
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post #137 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:05pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I don't know. Perhaps the language in the contract covers individual seasons, but in my heart I feel that they realized they might be in trouble after the season one genie was out of the bottle, then overreacted with season two. Now they are being cautious to leave out any cues whose ownership is in dispute.

This is the way I've felt too, Carab, since the entire mess came to light. I'm still of the opinion that because the sheet music was organized differently for this show that most others, the problem is that the people in charge at CBS/Paramount can't tell the difference between the regular CBS Library scores (which they do own and could include in this set) and the scant few seconds of Capitol cues that appear in individual episodes (which are the disputed/unknown ownership cues). Since they were able to discern the Rugolo cues they put those back in, but the difference between the CBS and Capitol cues are a bit harder to discern so they just kept them all out. At least that's what I believe has happened, based on what I've read.

Regardless, I still agree that CBS/Paramount should be commended for the effort. It was surely a huge undertaking on their part and I appreciate them doing it.

Gary "this really will be about how much each and every fan can tolerate - to some this will be acceptable and to others it will not" O.
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post #138 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:17pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero

And if someone knows how I can change my one star rating for S2V1 on Amazon, I'm all ears. I edited my review with an update but was not allowed to adjust my stars rating.
You have to delete your original review and post a new one, but it will appear with the date and in the order of your original review.
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post #139 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:19pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim B.
So the statement in the FAQ on tvshowsondvd about the replacement discs and the new release S2V2 is not really accurate, that these are like S1 as far as replacement music? My seaon 1 DVD's had all the Twilight Zone and other original cues intact. I am going to pass on this. Just putting back most of the Rugolo music does not work for me. I am able to enjoy the S1 DVD's, they replaced only the brief seconds of pop songs. To replace critical cues does not make sense. They know fans approved of S1, why not just do S2 the same way? I have real nice VHS copies of Season 2 that will last me the rest of my life. It's not like you can watch the shows over and over, I watch them once or twice every couple of years. And they trashed My Three Sons with Heyes crap so I say to hell with CBS.

I have to agree. I simply dont think I can enjoy the show without the original cues. I am glad that CBS/Paramount went to all the trouble of trying to fix the problem, but from what I have read so far, there are still too many cues missing or altered. Maybe if I had never heard the original cues and they werent etched into my brain there wouldnt be a problem, but that is not the case. I was hoping for something similar to season 1. Since I already gave away my copy of season 2 volume 1, I will have to rent a copy and see if I can tolerate it. I dont think it is going to work for me though. I cant imagine Escape into Black with the guts ripped out of it. I am not going to say to hell with CBS, because they did what they could. Its just not enough.

Dave
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post #140 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:22pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
There's a cue that's used in the epilogue of the ending sequence of part two of "Angels..." that would just kill me if it had been replaced. It's a very special cue to me that's used in, for instance, the Christmas-themed Season 1 episode of HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL. It's not a Rugolo score (at least as far as I know it's not) but if had shown up missing then I'd have been devastated. It might be a HGWT specific score that was then used in THE FUGITIVE. Seems like I've heard it in other shows too, so I'm not positive of the origin.

Gary, you piqued my curiosity so I put on ATOLR Part II to check it out for myself. It is indeed a eloquent and plaintive cue that perfectly elevates the sacramental tone of the scene. I wish I could identify it! It is almost certainly not Rugolo and I'm quite sure it was not composed for HGWT either as there was but one original score composed (the pilot, "Three Bells to Perdido") over the course of the first three seasons.

Quote:
I certainly can't attest to its accuracy, but the "David Janssen Archive" has a page on the music cues used for "The Fugitive"...

Bob, the TZ cues as identified by Thomas Rucki and listed on the davidjanssen.net site are remarkably accurate (for those episodes listed, anyway) as far as S1 is concerned. I referred to the list constantly when watching S1 "Fugitive" episodes and correlated them with my copy of the TZ 40th anniversary soundtrack collection. Surely these cues and others are not missing en masse in the S2 sets...?
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post #141 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:23pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'm getting more than a few PMs, so let me just speak plainly (which I thought I already did!)

Will purists like this set the way they did season one?

If you are a true purist you would have objected to season one, because there were music changes, albeit incidental. They bugged the snot out of me, buy hey, it's a freaking jukebox, right?

No matter to what degree of detail I go, or what conclusions I draw, if you are a Fugitive fan I believe you owe it to yourself to get this new replacement set and give it a chance. Decide for yourself. It is part of the history of this great show, for better or worse.
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post #142 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:31pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
Gary, you piqued my curiosity so I put on ATOLR Part II to check it out for myself. It is indeed a eloquent and plaintive cue that perfectly elevates the sacramental tone of the scene. I wish I could identify it! It is almost certainly not Rugolo and I'm quite sure it was not composed for HGWT either as there was but one original score composed (the pilot, "Three Bells to Perdido") over the course of the first three seasons.

Thanks a bunch, Michael. I love that cue so much. It does appear in the Christmas-themed HGWT episode at a pivotal moment as well, and does seem to fit the mood there perfectly too. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other shows, but I just can't remember them right now. I guarantee you this though. Next time I come across it I'll be sure to make note of it and post it here, or at least PM the findings to you.

There are several TZ cues that really seem critical to me and it will be tough if they aren't in these Season 2 episodes. "Back There" was used a bunch in the first 2 seasons, as was "The Invaders". I hate the thought of not hearing those themes.

Gary "I'm more anxious than ever to get my replacement discs now" O.
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post #143 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:43pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I'm getting more than a few PMs, so let me just speak plainly (which I thought I already did!)

That's what happens when you are in the spotlight. LOL, just kidding with you.

In all seriousness, I think your last couple of posts have clarified things completely. There's really nothing left to wonder about. I believe we all get it now. At least I know I do.

Gary "thanks again for the clarifications" O.
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post #144 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:46pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I'd like to second (or third) the appreciation for CBS/Paramount. They probably took a big loss in order to avoid a problem and then rectify it, and I'm glad they did. Copyright is a bitch, to be certain, but at least they're trying and in this environment of uncertain copyrights, that's a lot.

Speaking of S2V2, has anybody noticed there's a S1-S2 set on Amazon? Do you think it might include the original cases for the sets so I could still get on that S2V1 replacement? I only have S1V1 and I'd love to grab that set for $82.
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post #145 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:49pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Here is something that peels back a layer of the replacement process.

When Kimble gets on the the train at the end of ESCAPE INTO BLACK and he gets up and goes to the restroom and washes his face, the original cue is there. But when he looks out the window and then Gerard is next to him and the train derails, Heyes jumps out at us.

If I'm not mistaken that's Goldsmith's Invaders again, right? It's toast, man.
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post #146 of 937
2/19/09 at 7:54pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
Here is something that peels back a layer of the replacement process.

When Kimble gets on the the train at the end of ESCAPE INTO BLACK and he gets up and goes to the restroom and washes his face, the original cue is there. But when he looks out the window and then Gerard is next to him and the train derails, Heyes jumps out at us.

If I'm not mistaken that's Goldsmith's Invaders again, right? It's toast, man.

Ugh.

Gary "one of my kids has a saying when they are disappointed that I think applies here - 'Shoot a monkey's butt!' " O.
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post #147 of 937
2/19/09 at 8:01pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

I gotta call it a night...it's starting to mess with my mind...I was sure the cue when Jenssen talks to Ivan Dixon in the garage was changed...but before I posted such I checked and it's the original...time to go watch David Vincent or something...

A lot of the music is there, though guys. To be fair, it is.
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post #148 of 937
2/19/09 at 8:20pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I gotta call it a night...it's starting to mess with my mind...I was sure the cue when Jenssen talks to Ivan Dixon in the garage was changed...but before I posted such I checked and it's the original...time to go watch David Vincent or something...

A lot of the music is there, though guys. To be fair, it is.


You are the man Dave! Thanks for all of your help and insight and review of the DVD's
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post #149 of 937
2/19/09 at 8:28pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

This is just speculation, BUT --

I would not be stunned if CBS/Paramount has someone working at unraveling the music to see what non-Rugolo cues they own before remastering seasons two or three. They have to know as well as anyone that the non-Rugolo percentage is higher after season two, and the more they can leave alone the more units they will likely sell.

Then again, I would also not be stunned if seasons three and four simply tracked in more already-written Heyes to fill the gaps between Rugolo cues.
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post #150 of 937
2/19/09 at 10:03pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE, Season 2, Vol. 1 - Replacement Program Announced

If there's one thing I know I know now, it's that I know that I don't know what Paramount is going to do, you know?
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