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A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray - Page 6

post #151 of 207
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
Apart from the fact that many people know what film looks like and make decisions on that basis I really wonder what the merit of a Blu Ray in its own concerning image quality would be if not its accuracy and fidelity to the original source it came from? Someone's random taste and preferences? Who's? Yours? What do you suggest as an alternative basis that is not purely subjective? There is none, plain and simple. The basis for judging image and sound can only be if the Blu Ray looks and sounds as the creators of the source (in this case a film shot on 35mm and made for theatrical distribution) intended it to on that medium Blu Ray. And the default assumption clearly is that the Blu Ray should come as close to an ideal screening of this source in its original form. When this goal is not met at all and the look of the source has been considerably changed without any technical necessity to do so for a release on Blu Ray then criticism is well deserved for as long as the film makers have not declared that the modifications are intended and fully supported by them. I sincerely doubt that either the director or the director of photography are happy with this transfer for use on Blu Ray in 2009, given the current state of the art of transfering films to HD which allows for a far more accurate version with none of the current digital artifacts to be made.

Thank you!

In regard to whatever film is and how it is represented on home video, there is an entire cross-section of the public out there -- possibly the Walmart set -- that have no problem viewing a down-rezzed sub-master of Gump on SD DVD in 4:3 and monaural.

And loving the film, most likely having either no knowledge or no care that they are only able to see 40% of the image in sub-par resolution.

It's Gump.

Well not really, but they perceive it to be. And they're happy.

And good for them. There are multitudes walking the surface of the earth daily, who simply smile and move on, never harming anyone or anything, and leaving nothing in their wake when they leave.

And the studio creates a special master just for them.

All's well.

Then there are the others, unhappy if a quality film has been visually or sonically impaired, who know what they are viewing, desire a home theater experience as promised by a technical format, and are verbal about it. For the record there are also studio people, responsible for the quality of those releases, who are equally upset when something they stand behind misses the mark because something, somewhere along the long and sometimes tenuous production line has fallen through the cracks.

If those in the first group remain unaware of the beauty, the exultation, the serenity, the sheer joy (or terror) that one can get from a quality film print, or in this case, a properly prepared Blu-ray disc, they are best not to waste a single cent on Blu-ray.

Standard definition DVD will do nicely, in whatever aspect ratio and audio format they prefer.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with these people.

RAH

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Amadeus (Book) [Blu-ray]
post #152 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Excellent post, Robert!
post #153 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA

In the end, and this is how I decide for myself--no one else need do this, I hope for the best and use rentals to gauge "the worst". In the case of Amadeus, I'd likely have relied on a rental if I'd read RAH before making the order, but the low price was too tempting. I privilege the content first, quality of presentation second and format third--content is by far the most important to me. So I'm willing to live with some disappointment presentation-wise if it means I can see the content. I lived with my SD release of the Director's Cut of Blade Runner for a long time, knowing it could look better (even on SD) but not wanting to go without one of my favourite films. I suspect I will have to do the same with BD, even if I'd rather not.
That low price was awfully temping wasn't it. I'm encouraged that Warner Bros decided to "go low" on one of their premier catalog titles and I sure hope this is a trend to be followed by other studios in pricing their catalog titles. I'm an avowed collector of HD movies off satellite and even though I had a superb HD recording of "Amadeus" in my collection, the BD price was so tempting, I bought anyway.
post #154 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Frankie,

how big is your viewing screen/how "wide" an angle do you view from? Are you watching in full 1080p from a viewing distance of less than 1.7 screen-widths away? I'm curious how the Blu-ray of Amadeus compares to the HD broadcast recording that you have...
post #155 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
......And by the way, Mr. Harris is hardly the only person (one does not need to be an "officially" designated reviewer to evaluate discs) who evaluates BRs on the basis of how well they replicate the look of the film. There are MANY such people, even if you're not aware of it.
Without having the means to directly compare the BD disc to the actual film elements themselves any objective comparison is highly suspect, IMO.
post #156 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Without having the means to directly compare the BD disc to the actual film elements themselves any objective comparison is highly suspect, IMO.
Then threads like this should be of no interest to you, and yet you're constantly popping up in them, making the same arguments. Do you have any purpose beyond trolling?

Think carefully before you answer, because I'm asking this in an official capacity.
post #157 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
This raises several questions.

Why do viewers like "a snappy Discovery channel look"? (Most likely because HD VIDEO, like that broadcast on Discovery HD and a lot of other HD programming broadcast elsewhere, is the BULK of their HD viewing experience).
That would be my guess as well. Don't know 'bout you but probably 90% of the HD programming I watch is non HDM.
Quote:
Why should a FILM source (and not a VIDEO source) be EXPECTED to look like VIDEO by viewers? (Because, having been fed a steady diet of one kind of HD material, they are startled by the unfamiliar)
I think you answered your own question.
Quote:
SHOULD a presentation of a FILM source be transformed to look like VIDEO? (NOT on the disc--use the features on your player and display if you want that--it's a win/win)
Perhaps the answer to this question has more to do with economics than artistry. Obviously, the studio's want mass appeal for their products and film purists will always represent a small minority.
Quote:
In the end, nothing is perfect. But when attaining a compelling close approximation of film is finally available, it is beyond senseless to DELIBERATELY deviate from that goal to satisfy the uninformed. Of course, we, as individuals, are free to decide what level of deviation from the goal (deliberate or otherwise) we are willing to tolerate relative to other factors (how much do we like the content, how long will we have to wait for a more appropriate version to be released and a host of other considerations) but to actively endorse (rather than, at best, grudgingly accept) a deliberate deviation from the STATED GOAL of getting closer to the source seems a bit much to expect from anyone who cares about this hobby, much less someone who makes a living in the field and knows whereof he speaks.
The decisions we make about spending, to me anyway, seems like just an endless series of compromises...much like what we went through when we decided to buy 'Amadeus."
Quote:
You are free to enjoy Patton as it is on the BD. That is a matter of personal choice. You should not expect a respected professional in the field to endorse what is clearly a purposeful deviation away from the goal of getting as close to the source as possible.
I certainly don't expect Mr Harris to endorse anything of what I have to say. In fact, when you think about it, we ALL have the same goal, and that is to enjoy the superior PQ/AQ of movies in the BD format. Any difference is simply which level of "superior" we are willing to accept.
post #158 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
In fact, when you think about it, we ALL have the same goal, and that is to enjoy the superior PQ/AQ of movies in the BD format. Any difference is simply which level of "superior" we are willing to accept.

No, that's *your* goal.

The goal of most HTF members isn't just to enjoy something that's marginal, sub-par, or at best just "better than DVD",

the goal of most members of a place like HTF is what's been stated repeatedly in this thread: for a medium to be as transparent to the original (film) master as possible.

That's my goal for BD even for titles I don't care about and don't want to own. Why? Because I want them to look their best for the fans who *do* want to own them and enjoy them.

That's a very different goal than your continum of anything that's argueably better than DVD.

Now, we all enjoy owning movies and we all allow ourselves the necessity of compromise so we can own and enjoy films that aren't properly mastered. However, owning sub-par versions of our beloved movies is not "our goal".
post #159 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong

....The folks who apply heavy doses of such processing desire some kind of (apparently popular) effect and are either intentionally or simply ignorantly accepting the bad "residue" of their design -- and that's not even to argue whether film grain should belong in the best video presentation of the films for artistically important reasons.
Such a harsh assessment but as long as BD is posting acceptable earnings, I don't see much in the way of change in the for-see-able future. Do you?
Quote:
Next thing you'll tell us is that it's good that TV manufacturers regularly put out TVs w/ (often hard to reverse) settings that are designed to be horribly incorrect (wrt to actual standards) just for the purpose of appealing to the masses in unrealistically brightly lit showroom floors. I'm glad though that at least some of them have recently made it easier to turn off such "torch modes" and change (most, if not all) settings to be much closer to what they should be. But that's basically what we're also arguing wrt BD: namely,they should release titles so that we can at least opt for a reasonably faithful presentation of the original film (as originally intended by the filmmakers) while letting everyone else the option to use their TVs' various picture processing features to do whatever they want for their own private viewings. If there was a reasonable way to actually reverse all the effects of undesired processing on the BD (like when one buys a TV and have it recalibrated), then that would be acceptable too. But there is not. That kind of processing generally only work in one direction.

_Man_
Wouldn't you like to hear something...ANYTHING from these "filmmakers" about this very subject. Absent evidence to the contrary, one can assume that "filmakers" are happy with BD titles as their currently released or they simply don't give a damn.
post #160 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Well, to me, the BD looks like a very slight improvement over the DVD when looking at the DVDbeaver screen caps.
post #161 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I'm astounded you tried to make this argument as a counter to what Michael said. This discussion isn't about the merits of advances such as Technicolor, VistaVision, Cinemascope, 70 mm, etc. It's about changing what the film was in the first place. Trying to, say, change a 4:3 black and white film into a Technicolor Cinemascope film would be ludicrous (as is chopping a Cinemascope film down to 4:3), and for you to suggest that opposition to such a change is the same thing as saying those things weren't worthwhile advances is a non sequitur.
Why do you suppose the studio's are "changing what the film was in the first place"???
post #162 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Wouldn't you like to hear something...ANYTHING from these "filmmakers" about this very subject.
We hear it all the time. Filmmakers often have input into the production of the DVD and BDs of their films -- e.g., the Godfather restorations produced by Mr. Harris and the Bladerunner set produced by another of our HTF insiders, Charlie de Lauzirika. Invariably, those discs where the filmmakers had input are among the most filmlike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Absent evidence to the contrary, one can assume that "filmakers" are happy with BD titles as their currently released or they simply don't give a damn.
I disagree that there's no evidence to the contrary, but even if that were so, there's no basis for such an assumption. And I find it interesting how easily you shift from "it's all opinion" to trying to build a logical and evidentiary foundation for what is self-evidently your personal taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Why do you suppose the studio's are "changing what the film was in the first place"???
There are many possible reasons: Slip-shod practices at mastering houses; recycling of outdated masters; transfer techniques that are holdovers from the days of standard-def DVD. Then, of course, there's the unfortunate perception that people won't buy the disc unless it looks a certain way. One of our goals here is to disabuse studios of that notion. We've already made considerable progress. I would say I'm sorry if this pains you, but I'm not.
post #163 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
The goal of most HTF members isn't just to enjoy something that's marginal, sub-par, or at best just "better than DVD",

the goal of most members of a place like HTF is what's been stated repeatedly in this thread: for a medium to be as transparent to the original (film) master as possible.

I guess that would explain why I've felt out of place on this board for some time (ever since HD formats started popping up). To be honest, I've never gone beyond my desire to enjoy my favorite movies on my "TV". I've never had the desire to have a genuine "Home Theater". I've got a nice sized TV and a very good Surround Sound system - but as far as "recreating the theatrical experience", I'm quite comfortable leaving that to the actual movie theaters.

I guess I never realized how many people here were dedicated to going so far - makes perfect sense now as to why DVD is thought of as a thing of the past on these boards.
post #164 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn the Elfstone
makes perfect sense now as to why DVD is thought of as a thing of the past on these boards.
If DVD were considered "a thing of the past" here, we wouldn't have so many people writing DVD reviews. And if you look at the HTF mission statement, the goals are the same with DVD.

But naturally, if you look at threads in the hi-def section, that's what people will be talking about.
post #165 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Sure reviewers disagree. Given that anyone can watch a movie, post a review, and call themselves a "reviewer" it's not surprising.

But the track record of most reviewers is pretty consistent for that individual. Once you find a reviewer who you know you can trust because his or her impressions mirror your own critical eye, then you can ignore the rest and pay attention to the small group of reviewers who actually know how to properly evaluate image and sound quality.
It's not as simple as all that. Mr Harris and I admire the writings of the same reviewer, Roger Ebert. Yet we've come away with different impressions; Mr Harris trusts Mr Ebert's reviews implicitly on all his reviews and I don't because of many differences of opinion over the years. From this experience I've learned to rely more on my own judgement.
Quote:
And just because you're happy to buy any movie you like regardless of the quality of the disc, does that mean that we still shouldn't pressure the studios to do the best that they can? If you're happy to buy any movie you like regardless of the image quality, then WHY NOT enjoy the fact that others are advocating for improved picture and sound to help improve the quality of the discs that you'll buy anyway? You'll essentially be getting improved image quality for free based on their efforts. What's your problem?
What's my problem!!! It would appear that I'm not the one with the problem as PQ/AQ on ALL the BD discs I've bought I'm very satisfied with. In short...I'm a satisfied customer.
Quote:
If you don't want BD image quality to be substandard for those enjoying on large-screen systems, then what are you protesting for?
HTF is not a place for attitudes like yours. Plenty of places are, including Walmart. But why thread-crap here about your lack of appreciation for properly mastered film transfers?
Perhaps your right. Opinions expressing satisfaction with HD discs have no place in this forum.
post #166 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
If DVD were considered "a thing of the past" here, we wouldn't have so many people writing DVD reviews. And if you look at the HTF mission statement, the goals are the same with DVD.

Correct.

Regardless of the medium, the goal at HTF and of its members has always been for the medium to communicate, as accurately as possible, the look and sound of the original film. Naturally Blu-ray can do a much better job of acheiving that in absolute terms, but the goal of fidelity-to-the-source is no different for HTF for either format.
post #167 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
But naturally, if you look at threads in the hi-def section, that's what people will be talking about.

I know, but everyone hangs out over here now.
post #168 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
It's not as simple as all that. Mr Harris and I admire the writings of the same reviewer, Roger Ebert. Yet we've come away with different impressions; Mr Harris trusts Mr Ebert's reviews implicitly on all his reviews and I don't because of many differences of opinion over the years. From this experience I've learned to rely more on my own judgement.

What does Ebert's review of a film have to do with qualifying video quality on a format? RAH doesn't rely on Ebert's judement of a film's presentation on DVD or BD as that's not Ebert's expertise. Obviously, when I mentioned finding a reviewer you "trust" I was talking about the issue we were discussing: a reviewer's impression of image quality.

Quote:
Perhaps your right. Opinions expressing satisfaction with HD discs have no place in this forum

I am right.

And no one is disagreeing with you expressing satisfaction with a Blu-ray Disc. Rather, you're actively suggesting that a sub-par disc should be all that the studio should attempt to achieve and that such mastering practices are good-enough.

No one here has suggested you can't be satisfied. We're not criticizing you when we criticize the studio for releasing sub-par product.

If I were happy with a disc on my own system but learned that on better systems it revealed shortcomings, I'd be happy that others were putting pressure on the studios to improve things so that everyone could have the best presentation possible. For you to argue that things shouldn't be any better defies logic and in no way reflects the stated goals of a place like HTF.

Why are you here?
post #169 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Perhaps your right. Opinions expressing satisfaction with HD discs have no place in this forum.
No one has said any such thing. This is just the latest in a string of mischaracterizations and sophistries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Why are you here?
In this thread, he no longer is.

All please note: Further replies in this thread to frankie108 will not be seen by him.
post #170 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

So many posts; so sorry if this has been irrefutably stated B4:
Is the source used for this BD title the exact same as the source for the last SD DVD?
Thanks.
(I'm asking because some have posted its as good as it may get for today; while it seems the OP had it this HD transfer had been futzed with)
post #171 of 207
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
So many posts; so sorry if this has been irrefutably stated B4:
Is the source used for this BD title the exact same as the source for the last SD DVD?
Thanks.
(I'm asking because some have posted its as good as it may get for today; while it seems the OP had it this HD transfer had been futzed with)

If you mean the previous SD release, I don't believe so. The word getting back to me at this point is that this is an entirely new scan of the film element.

This is an important film, and WB is treating it as such. The fact that there is an apparent problem, does not disallow that fact.

RAH
post #172 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Was WB responsible for this transfer, or the Zaentz Company?
post #173 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

I heard that it was Zaentz, but I don't know for sure.
post #174 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

This is probably one of those obvious question for those in the know....

Is there a distinction to be made here between the transfer and what may or may not have been applied during production? I guess I'm asking can the new transfer be saved/used again without the use of image "enhancements" (used loosely) that were applied for this release or does an entire new scan of the film need to be done?
post #175 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

With luck the transfer isn't inherently compromised and it could be repurposed sans the additional processing, but I don't know for sure. Hopefully RAH will turn up some info on that very question sometime soon.

I know that some times filtering and/or processing is applied when the transfer is made (the EE in the original HD transfer for Lawrence of Arabia, for instance) and other times the problems are added in at a later stage of mastering. Of course, either way WB may choose not to revisit this for re-release any time soon. Sigh... and we haven't even touched the issue of the theatrical cut not being provided (not the forum for taking WB to task on that account).

dave
post #176 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
If you mean the previous SD release, I don't believe so. The word getting back to me at this point is that this is an entirely new scan of the film element.

This is an important film, and WB is treating it as such. The fact that there is an apparent problem, does not disallow that fact.

RAH
WoW
Was hoping you'd respond Robert, just didn't think so fast, thanks for taking the time.
So we get a brand new screwed up transfer, YIPPEE!!!
And, all those that have posted here its as good as it can be today (demand, economy, technology, etc.) are wrong; as many transfers (today) surpass this one.
---------
This riks me too no end cause:
B4 HDM was released I showed a concern about EE.
People said: don't worry its a new format (meaning not SD DVD).
Now we have EE.
B4 HDM was released I showed a concern about DNR (we called it "high frequency filtering" back in the day).
People said: don't worry its a new format (meaning not SD DVD).
Now we have DNR.
B4 HDM was released I showed a concern about possible lack of lossless audio.
People said: don't worry its a new format (meaning not SD DVD).
Now we have HD titles w/o HD soundtracks.

I'm not saying "all" BD's are badd; just why are we stuck w/the same problems of old DVD w/the new HD format? Greed? Stupidity? Both?
The door to poor transfers should have been slammed shut a long time ago!
post #177 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
No amount of forum-enthused boycott will put a big enough dent in sales to send any message. People should state their opinion here and let it get read by WB; with or without purchase it is the same.
True enough. I don't know if the issue is one of people not noticing the problems, or simply that the general public wouldn't be aware of them and simply buy based on the title.

As someone who has yet to buy hardware, I do find it disturbing that a number of the titles that I would have gravitated towards are getting poor reviews in their BD releases - which isn't encouraging the purchase of a player when there is so little that I'd be interested in to begin with, and what there is may not be worth investing in.
post #178 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Jeff,

while I share your misgivings about the lack of fidelity on some key releases, let's not allow the sentiments of frustration in this thread to misguide us into thinking that the majority of Blu-ray Disc aren't wonderfully produced. Most have stellar video and almost all have lossless audio.

Sure, we all wish Amadeus was better. But at this point there are hundreds of 1080p films that range across every Genre to choose from, and that list includes some amazing films that never got this well treated on DVD at this point in that format's live cycle.

Baraka in 1080p is reason enough to buy a Blu-ray Disc player. As is Blade Runner. As are many other stellar releases that properly represent their films and provide more fidelity to the consumer than ever dreamed possible just a few short years ago (when folks at another forum were saying we'd never have 1080p televisions).

Every 10 DVDs you buy could have paid for a $200 BD player. If a movie is worth owning, it's worth owning in 1080p.
post #179 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Although I would never advocate lowering the bar for the quality of BD releases, I also think it would be a mistake to completely avoid the BD format or certain less-than-stellar releases unless you wish to make a strong statement to the studios on principle (and will follow through accordingly so they actually get the message).

That's why I opted to buy Amadeus for the $15 sale price from Amazon after some deliberation. Yes, it's apparently a rather flawed release, but what exactly would your other option(s) be, if you really love this film (and would actually find the quality substantially better than the old DVD and "acceptable enough" for the price tag given your particular situation)? Of course, that's assuming if the quality will be "acceptable enough" given one's various criteria. One does need to pick and choose one's battles well me thinks when it comes to such matters...

_Man_
post #180 of 207

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Without having the means to directly compare the BD disc to the actual film elements themselves any objective comparison is highly suspect, IMO.
As far as the presence of smeary, detail removing digital filtering artifacts are concerned the comparison is not suspect at all since these artifacts simply don't exist on film masters of the time when Amadeus was made. That is a fact, not an opinion.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Amadeus (Book) [Blu-ray]