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A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

post #1 of 213
2/16/09 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
Amadeus, director Milos Forman's Best Picture of 1984 is not the film being released by WB on this new Blu-ray. This Director's Cut is a different film, which shares much of the same footage.

I had never seen the DC of the film, and was looking forward to the experience, but decided against it.

Somewhere between the film element and the Blu-ray this particular Amadeus has been turned to something odd and Patton-esque. Not necessarily soft, certainly clean, but with virtually no feel of film or cinema whatsoever, this Amadeus is an unwelcome surprise.

For those who like the music, close your eyes and you'll be fine.

My overall feeling about the release is that had less been done to the video master, it may have been a roaring success. As it is...

Not an especially good day for Warner Home Video, who incidentally, may have had nothing to do with the transfer.

RAH
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Amadeus (Book) [Blu-ray]
post #2 of 213
2/16/09 at 2:32pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

It's a bit sharpened and edges towards the "waxy" Patton look upon closer examination, but I suspect Warner did the best they could with the master approved by The Saul Zaentz Company.

I thought it was still an exceptional experience, and quite superior to the DVD from 2002.
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post #3 of 213
2/16/09 at 3:16pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Wow! This news made me put this from my Must Buy list to Rent it on Netflix first! Thank's Mr. Harris!
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post #4 of 213
2/16/09 at 3:39pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
It's a bit sharpened and edges towards the "waxy" Patton look upon closer examination, but I suspect Warner did the best they could with the master approved by The Saul Zaentz Company.

I thought it was still an exceptional experience, and quite superior to the DVD from 2002.

Blu-ray MUST be superior to a DVD or the format should close up shop.

That is irrelevant. The salient factor is how good can it look on Blu-ray, which should be like film.

If is doesn't, it fails! These discs are not selling for $2.99. Perfection is easily attained.

Scan the film. Don't make changes.

RAH
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post #5 of 213
2/16/09 at 3:52pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

I asked this in the A History of Violence thread, but it could apply here too:

As a matter of practically (I fully understand the refusal to endorse a release in hi-def when compared to its source material and how good it could be), if one wanted this title and did not have it in any other format (recorded on DVR, SD DVD or, in a generic case, VHS), would the recommendation be A) get the BD if you really want this movie and don't want to wait because it's better than any other available format, despite the significant flaws it suffers from or B) don't get this under any circumstance because not only does it look bad on a "big screen" but even on a small monitor, it looks bad.

If I understand correctly, Patton could fall under option A) while Gangs of New York would fall under category B). If this makes sense, would Amadeus fall under Category A) or B)?
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post #6 of 213
2/16/09 at 3:55pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Scan the film. Don't make changes.

RAH
Unfortunately this isn't likely to happen, not in these days of CG over hand drawn animation, where every studio thinks the consumer wants the product to look crisp and shinny.

I will be buying it if only for the amazing soundtrack (and it doesn't hurt that it's on sale at Best Buy this week for $14.99).
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post #7 of 213
2/16/09 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
I asked this in the A History of Violence thread, but it could apply here too:

As a matter of practically (I fully understand the refusal to endorse a release in hi-def when compared to its source material and how good it could be), if one wanted this title and did not have it in any other format (recorded on DVR, SD DVD or, in a generic case, VHS), would the recommendation be A) get the BD if you really want this movie and don't want to wait because it's better than any other available format, despite the significant flaws it suffers from or B) don't get this under any circumstance because not only does it look bad on a "big screen" but even on a small monitor, it looks bad.

If I understand correctly, Patton could fall under option A) while Gangs of New York would fall under category B). If this makes sense, would Amadeus fall under Category A) or B)?

Purchasing an NG title sends a bad message, and the message should be that if one creates garbage, it will not sell.

Again... buy a used DVD and enjoy the show, which used to be a decent film.

RAH
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post #8 of 213
2/16/09 at 4:45pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
If I understand correctly, Patton could fall under option A) while Gangs of New York would fall under category B). If this makes sense, would Amadeus fall under Category A) or B)?
As one who bought Patton and Amadeus but passed on Gangs of New York, I personally would say buy it if you love the film and want to watch it at any point within, say, the next decade, because frankly speaking, the odds of a new BD of Amadeus within that time frame is slim to none.

Mr. Harris certainly has his own line in the sand in regards to category A and B.
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post #9 of 213
2/16/09 at 4:49pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Purchasing an NG title sends a bad message, and the message should be that if one creates garbage, it will not sell.

Again... buy a used DVD and enjoy the show, which used to be a decent film.

RAH
I will certainly take that under advisement for A History of Violence. As for Amadeus, I'm afraid the low price I saw this morning on Amazon (while browsing for books for my work) was too tempting and I'd not seen your comments, so it's on its way. I have held back on Gangs of New York (though that film is one that interests me from a professional standpoint as an historian who works with historical feature films--I rely on the local rental copy at the moment and, based in part on your comments, I will continue to hold back on that title).
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post #10 of 213
2/16/09 at 4:56pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Glad RAH is outright dismissing this release.
I'm waiting for the TV & DC , isolated score, & w/o DNR/EE release anyway.
Hope it comes B4 I die.
GREAT movie!!!

Here is another review of the problematic video presentation:
Blu-ray.com - Amadeus Blu-ray Review (Director's Cut)
"Overzealous post-processing. Not only has digital noise reduction (DNR) been applied to the transfer, but edge enhancement has been peppered in to compensate for its ill-effects. While the artificial sharpening does firm up object edges (at the cost of injecting distracting halos into the proceedings), it fails to conceal the waxy close-ups, hazy textures, and intermittent motion smearing caused by the noise reduction."

EDitEDbyED:
I feel at fifteen bucks this is a ripoff.
(IMO)
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post #11 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:06pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Glad RAH is outright dismissing this release. I feel at fifteen bucks this is a ripoff.
(IMO)

Let's take this one a step further. As an Academy Award Best Picture, the Blu-ray of Amadeus is best re-called, re-scanned and re-issued without all of the extra processing that went into this disc.

Make it simple. Just release the film on Blu-ray without cleaning it up.

RAH
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post #12 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:25pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Wow, this sounds like complete garbage. Sony got raked over the coals for letting a garbage transfer of The Fifth Element out on BD. Maybe the online HT community should be doing the same to whoever was responsible for this mess. The responsible parties should own up, recall this disc, and do the job right.

This format is still in a developing phase and such poor quality transfers will do nothing to encourage people to upgrade to BD. The brag was that films on BD would look like film. It is about time these studios started living up to that mantra, especially with the prices they are charging; although, normally, 14.99 could not be considered a high price, in this case it sounds like it is.
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post #13 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:29pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

IMO, there can always be a better presentation down the line. Give it enough time, and even the best HD transfer of a film in 2009 will be inferior in every regard to the 2020 home video release.

The question then becomes, as Mr. Harris puts it, could there have been a better presentation today. If the answer is ever "no" (and I'd argue that 90% of all titles released have that answer), the question then rightly becomes "at what point is that less than perfect transfer enough of a problem to dissuade a casual viewing?"

The last part can only, ultimately, be answered by each individual for themselves after their own viewing. As seen with the Patton discussion, this forum is gonna be evenly split down the middle, probably along the same lines.
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post #14 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:33pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Wow, this sounds like complete garbage. Sony got raked over the coals for letting a garbage transfer of The Fifth Element out on BD.
The comparison between the original release of The Fifth Element and this release of Amadeus is, IMO, completely unwarranted. The Fifth Element was a significantly worse transfer by comparison.

If perfection is 100, I'd put The Fifth Element at 40-45 and Amadeus around 80-85.
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post #15 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:35pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Is the sound still too loud, like the DVD?
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post #16 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:36pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

In comparison to what, John?
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post #17 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:48pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

I watched this the other night, and was impressed with it. I'm surprised by Robert's comments, I didn't see the dnr at all. A couple of scenes were soft, but I assumed that was a byproduct of the original elements. I'll have to watch it again with a more discerning eye.
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post #18 of 213
2/16/09 at 5:59pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

This is so, so very disappointing to read. Depressing, really.
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post #19 of 213
2/16/09 at 6:28pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
In comparison to what, John?
The previous DVD was about 10db over reference level if I'm not mistaken.
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post #20 of 213
2/16/09 at 6:31pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

nice. i love the honesty here. I'll save my $$$.
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post #21 of 213
2/16/09 at 6:42pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Let's take this one a step further. As an Academy Award Best Picture, the Blu-ray of Amadeus is best re-called, re-scanned and re-issued without all of the extra processing that went into this disc.

Make it simple. Just release the film on Blu-ray without cleaning it up.

RAH

I agree with this point. Do they not take a look at these discs and ask themselves these important questions?

I ay go with the older Two Disc Special Edition DVD... Most places you can get it dirt cheap these days.

I am so sick of WB's releasing sub par releases. I know they do good work but sometimes the bad work seems to be what is the loudest.

Word of mouth will spread... I feel the same way RECALL THE DISC and rescan the negative and release it. I bet Blue-Underground could release a better BLU RAY! and that isn't disrespecting B-Underground at all. IN fact they have a great BD track record so far. They don't over process their releases.
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post #22 of 213
2/16/09 at 6:47pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Purchasing an NG title sends a bad message, and the message should be that if one creates garbage, it will not sell.

I've always been concerned if this philosophy is correctly interpreted by the people that make the decisions regarding these releases.

I could see, instead, the following interpretation of poor sales: "Why should we bother to release any further catalog titles when the blockbuster 1984 Best Picture winner can't even make us a profit?" I always worry they will see low sales as apathy with regards the product rather than an indictment of the quality of the product.

Would it not be more effective to directly let the studio know our opinions of the release (coupled with the appropriate purchase or lack-of-purchase...whichever is appropriate)?

I know Ron says WB regularly scans these boards...but is that enough?
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post #23 of 213
2/16/09 at 7:03pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

No amount of forum-enthused boycott will put a big enough dent in sales to send any message. People should state their opinion here and let it get read by WB; with or without purchase it is the same.

A recall is a total pipe dream. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but that's the truth.

I fail to see the logic with "going for the older Two-Disc DVD". Even if one feels the BD is below optimal standards, it is plainly superior in every respect to the DVD. Blatantly so. Why degrade a viewing experience even further? To save $7-8? This makes no sense to me.
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post #24 of 213
2/16/09 at 7:08pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter of Mars
The previous DVD was about 10db over reference level if I'm not mistaken.
That I don't know. My receiver defaults on at a lower volume, so usually such things are not brought to my immediate attention. For what it's worth, I played it back in the same volume range I play most of my films back on.
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post #25 of 213
2/16/09 at 7:29pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
I fail to see the logic with "going for the older Two-Disc DVD". Even if one feels the BD is below optimal standards, it is plainly superior in every respect to the DVD. Blatantly so. Why degrade a viewing experience even further? To save $7-8? This makes no sense to me.

I agree with Brandon. However you feel about the transfer, it *will* be better than the SD edition. I picked it up this weekend at Best Buy, and since my set is not working at this moment, I spot checked the disc when I went to my friend's house. I thought the picture looked...decent. Yes, I did notice the DNR (Warner, for the love of God can you give DNR a rest?) and some EE (Warner, again, enough of this crap), but it was still a major step up from the SD edition from a few years ago.

It would be great for Warner to reissue the title, but then again it would be great if Disney reissued Gangs of New York with a transfer that didn't hurt my eyes. Unfortunately, I don't think either will happen (especially in this economy). Amadeus may have its PQ issues, but it is no where near the disaster Gangs of New York is.
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post #26 of 213
2/16/09 at 8:00pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

I was considering picking this up since it was selling for $15 this week, but after reading the comment s here, I will pass.
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post #27 of 213
2/16/09 at 8:10pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

My suspicions are, seeing as how this is a Saul Zaentz property rather than Warner outright, that the Zaentz Company approved the use of the HD Master created for the 2002 DVD release rather than doing a whole new one. For that time the level of DNR applied here is actually relatively spare.

This is totally conjecture on my part, but it makes the most sense.
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post #28 of 213
2/16/09 at 9:13pm

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

wasn't interested in this title but am disappointed to hear about the transfer issues

if there is anything good to be had from this release it will be showing the studios/retailers that price point right now is king
#1 seller on Amazon for 2 days straight only due to its 14.99 reduced price point (to match Best Buy circular sale price)

to bad those buying it though aren't getting the presentation they should receive
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post #29 of 213
2/17/09 at 12:02am

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

I haven't seen this myself but am relying on Mr. Harris expert opinions.

This discussion is yet another in the long line of cases of studio tampering with our beloved films. Starting with OAR, continuing with soundtrack mixes, we're now stuck with transfers designed for the videogaming generation.
For years nobody complained about OAR, the studios kept doing pan-scan and we kept on buying them. If we don't make a stand now they'll continue down whatever path will make them the most money.

Vote with your wallet.
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post #30 of 213
2/17/09 at 2:15am

Re: A few words about...™ Amadeus -- in Blu-ray

The detail removal goes hand in hand with the low average bit rate of 16 Mbit/s. You don't need a higher rate because you removed the HF content or you removed the HF content because then you can get away with the low bit rate. Which is it? Who knows, the net effect is disappointing. The HF detail should be there and the bit rate up where other studios put it for their important releases of somewhat grainy films (25 Mbit/s and higher).
Another lackluster Warner release in their line of 'good enough' releases.
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Amadeus (Book) [Blu-ray]