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Backward Compatibility

post #1 of 23
2/10/09 at 9:45am
Thread Starter 
So, I just got my humble home-theater set up pretty much.
It's all quite standard stuff, which is typical, I'm always years behind.
I just got my first LCD-monitor last week, go figure.
Which has do with both costs and technical issues; I still don't like LCD.

ANYWAY...

I was wondering, if I were to buy a Blu-ray-player,
could I still connect it to my 2006 SD-projector and 1999 5.1-receiver?
Or would everything have to be replaced at once all over again?

Also, would the image become any sharper/better when playing Blu-rays in the Blu-ray-player?
And I mean, even though this projector is just like 1024x768...
Because it kind of seems like the resolution is only important the farther or larger you want to project an image.
Since I understand there are these dots in the projection like on a solid screen.
But if I wouldn't want to project any farther thus larger,
I guess it could only get sharper by improving the image/audio-source right?

Or would any older device have trouble processing ("downconverting") the massive amounts of data anyway?
Both for image and audio that is...


So I'd like to know how a BRD-player would interact with my older devices.
If even possible to connect, I don't know if they support the older connections like S-Video and such...
Because I really can't afford to just overhaul the whole set instantly.
And I'd really like to start buying film on Blu-ray.
DVDs are becoming bad releases and for the technically amazing movies that have come out lately
and are still coming out, DVDs wouldn't even do them justice.
So I pretty much refuse to buy movies from the last years on DVD, as they would be replaced anyway.
I know my projector and receiver probably couldn't achieve such high fidelity, but at least I have and could play the BRDs.


About that...
Is there such a thing as HD-speakers, or can you just connect any speakers that were sounding good before
and they'd sound as good or better with HD-devices connected to them?
Because it just seems kind of silly to all of a sudden have HD-speakers too.
Audio probably already had that in general, since it's kind of a world apart.
But since my speakers aren't cutting-edge, I wonder if I could still hear a difference.
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post #2 of 23
2/10/09 at 10:53am

Re: Backward Compatibility

Your Bluray player will do just fine with your equipment. As to video if your LCD screen has HDMI, you can use that or if you want to connect to the projector, the projector will display 720p only, and it will still look good. As to audio, the player should have a coax or toslink connection, therefore you still are going to get 5.1 channel surround. You won't be missing much other than Dolby True HD or DTS Master.
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post #3 of 23
2/10/09 at 12:59pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Grate
Your Bluray player will do just fine with your equipment. As to video if your LCD screen has HDMI, you can use that or if you want to connect to the projector, the projector will display 720p only, and it will still look good. As to audio, the player should have a coax or toslink connection, therefore you still are going to get 5.1 channel surround. You won't be missing much other than Dolby True HD or DTS Master.


Ah, so it will display HD, thus a sharper image, only in 720 because it's capable vertically up to 768?
(I guess it's sharper anyway because DVD-video is lower, like 400-something.)
However, won't the fact that I'd be using an S-Video-connection (if possible) degrade the image?

For the audio, I know what coax is, but what is toslink?
Does that refer to and optical connection? I do use that already.

Only, how would that work with the audio-encoding? Like you said I'd miss out on the HD-equivalents of Dolby and DTS.
But would the player/receiver only let through like the SD-audio and the HD-audio simply doesn't work?
Just like for example when a receiver isn't DTS-compatible, that channel wouldn't be audible I guess.
Or do they not include such a thing as SD-audio on BDs
and does it simply use the HD-channels, only with a lower bitrate or something like that?

So like, would it "cap" the bitrate at the maximum the receiver can output?
I sure hope I could take advantage of the higher quality,
as in at least the final mix of the production and as much as the amp is capable of.
Not back down to Dolby Digital in SD only. -_-


And I was only referring to my just-bought LCD-monitor as an example I'm late with new technologies.
Which is just for this computer, there is a projector for movies etc.
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post #4 of 23
2/10/09 at 1:08pm

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
But would the player/receiver only let through like the SD-audio and the HD-audio simply doesn't work?
Just like for example when a receiver isn't DTS-compatible, that channel wouldn't be audible I guess.
Or do they not include such a thing as SD-audio on BDs
and does it simply use the HD-channels, only with a lower bitrate or something like that?

TrueHD will be downsampled to a lower bitrate format (format varies, but usually high bitrate DD 5.1). The DTS-HD codecs contain a DTS core, i.e. standard high bitrate DTS streams, which are built up with additional information to become DTS-HD. The DTS core is not downsampled, because once the additional "HD" data is removed, you are left with standard 1.5 Mbs DTS.
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post #5 of 23
2/10/09 at 1:17pm

Re: Backward Compatibility

On BD, TrueHD isn't really "downsampled" or reencoded, rather the player selects a separate default DD 5.1 track that is on the disc but hidden from the user, not selectable on the menu.

HD-DVD worked differently, the players were required to be able to mix audio + menu/commentary tracks, and had encoders to output DTS/DD depending on model for the optical out. In that case the TrueHD was reencoded.
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post #6 of 23
2/10/09 at 1:29pm

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Tu
On BD, TrueHD isn't really "downsampled" or reencoded, rather the player selects a separate default DD 5.1 track that is on the disc but hidden from the user, not selectable on the menu.

HD-DVD worked differently, the players were required to be able to mix audio + menu/commentary tracks, and had encoders to output DTS/DD depending on model for the optical out. In that case the TrueHD was reencoded.


Correct, I'm still stuck with my HD-DVD answers. Thanks for yanking me into BD land.
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post #7 of 23
2/10/09 at 1:41pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

OK, so there would be a separate Dolby-track but the DTS would be "cut down", as in say going from USB 2.0 to 1.1.
Yeah, I think I read about DTS actually supporting backward compatibility, also with the amount of channels for example.
Like when you'd have a 7.1-mix and you have 5.1, it would just downmix(?) that to 5.1.
Something like that... similar right?

And Dolby Digital would be the highest quality? Or what is most likely to happen?

But it's good to hear about DTS anyway, I'm really into quality for as far as I can afford it,
and a lot more film-titles on Blu-ray have a DTS-channel.
So I guess that's a good thing for me, since my receiver dóes support DTS.
I love the strength of the audio too, most of the time it's a lot louder than DD.
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post #8 of 23
2/10/09 at 5:49pm

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc.
Ah, so it will display HD, thus a sharper image, only in 720 because it's capable vertically up to 768?
(I guess it's sharper anyway because DVD-video is lower, like 400-something.)
However, won't the fact that I'd be using an S-Video-connection (if possible) degrade the image?

Why would you use S-video as your connection? A 2006 model year projector should have at least component connections, if not an HDMI connector. What model is your projector?
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post #9 of 23
2/10/09 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Why would you use S-video as your connection? A 2006 model year projector should have at least component connections, if not an HDMI connector. What model is your projector?

Nooo, I'm pretty sure S-Video is the best thing on there, as far as I understood it.
The projector is the 'Toshiba TDP-T9', quite a regular projector I guess.

But there are the 'S-Video', 'Video', 'Monitor' and 'Computer In'.
Also 'Audio In/Out' and 'Control', but those don't have to do anything with video obviously.
So I guess I could only connect the 'S-Video' and 'Video', only I thought 'Video' was even worse.
Unless that ís Composite, since it has one of those plugs...

Wait a minute, I'm holding the manual here and it gives this description for the 'Computer In'-terminal:

"Input analog RGB signal from a computer or other source,
or a component video signal (Y/Pb/P/r) from video equipment."

Hm, I guess you'd mean that, only it confuses me since it's this 15-pin-connector and like those 3 plugs.
Would I need some kind of adapter then?
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post #10 of 23
2/10/09 at 10:55pm

Re: Backward Compatibility

The 15-pin connector is a VGA connector, which is the standard analog computer video connector. It carries a component video signal.

Based on the manual I found online, this projector was designed for use with computers in an office environment for presentations. While the reviews I saw online said it does work well for watching movies and has a great picture, it wasn't designed to be connected via 3-cable component, DVI or HDMI.
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post #11 of 23
2/11/09 at 12:16am

Re: Backward Compatibility

Computer video is normally RGB-HV not component YPrPb.
But this projector also accepts YPrPb, so you can use it with 3 cable component, you just need an appropriate cable like:
VGA to 3 RCA component cable
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post #12 of 23
2/11/09 at 5:58am

Re: Backward Compatibility

Huh. I didn't know that type of cable existed. Learn something new everyday.
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post #13 of 23
2/11/09 at 7:21am
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule
The 15-pin connector is a VGA connector, which is the standard analog computer video connector. It carries a component video signal.

Based on the manual I found online, this projector was designed for use with computers in an office environment for presentations. While the reviews I saw online said it does work well for watching movies and has a great picture, it wasn't designed to be connected via 3-cable component, DVI or HDMI.

Yes, I pretty much already thought that since they even included a laser on the remote.
Which is typically for presentations and really unwanted cinemas... if you know what I mean...
And the thing also looks (and sounds?) like this office-projector.

All of that, apart from a setting switching between 'Normal' and 'Cinema'.
Strangely enough, the 'Normal' setting looks most natural...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Tu
Computer video is normally RGB-HV not component YPrPb.
But this projector also accepts YPrPb, so you can use it with 3 cable component, you just need an appropriate cable like:
VGA to 3 RCA component cable

Aha, I knew I'd need something like that, when I read the 'Computer In' also accepts a component video signal.
I just thought more of a small adapter like the ones from D-SUB to DVI for computers or videocards.
But it's not with small pins on both sides so...

So, would those 3 plugs on one end simply go into the player then?
Nothing else in between I mean.
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post #14 of 23
2/11/09 at 8:01am

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc.
So, would those 3 plugs on one end simply go into the player then?
Nothing else in between I mean.

That's what it looks like to me.
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post #15 of 23
2/11/09 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

I'll have to give that a try then.
Would there be any significant improvement to image-quality then?
And what specifically would become better, noise (less of course), sharpness or anything like that?

I did see this table somewhere before, about different connectors.
Which said like 'Video' would be "worst", 'S-Video' "medium", 'Component' "good" and 'HDMI' "best" obviously.
Actually, I think there was one more and called just as good as HMDI.
Could have been one of the ones named just now, but yeah...
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post #16 of 23
2/12/09 at 7:21am

Re: Backward Compatibility

This day and age, S-Video should be the least used. The cable previously given to you from Monoprice will allow 720p passed through to your projector. S-video does only 480i interlaced and 720p is high definition. I don't know if the projector will take anything like 480i and bump it up to it's native resolution of 720p. But 720p is a far better picture than 480i. HDMI for your t.v. is the best way to connect HD sources.
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post #17 of 23
2/12/09 at 1:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Grate
This day and age, S-Video should be the least used. The cable previously given to you from Monoprice will allow 720p passed through to your projector. S-video does only 480i interlaced and 720p is high definition. I don't know if the projector will take anything like 480i and bump it up to it's native resolution of 720p. But 720p is a far better picture than 480i. HDMI for your t.v. is the best way to connect HD sources.

Well, there are some lists for supported signals and resolutions in the manual.
On the list for "Y/Pb/Pr" it includes 480p/i, 576i/p, 720p and 1080i.
Which are shown in a table with frequencies etc.
So I guess it accepts those signals, only would limit them to 768 (or 720 as said before).
As the projector's native resolution is the old 1024x768.

Just thinking, some months ago, I burned some HD(720)-videos to try on the projector.
And they looked pretty sharp, possibly better than some DVD-movies I've seen.
If a better connection (and also Blu-ray) would improve that even more, I'd really like that.
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post #18 of 23
2/12/09 at 6:09pm

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc.
Just thinking, some months ago, I burned some HD(720)-videos to try on the projector.
And they looked pretty sharp, possibly better than some DVD-movies I've seen.
If a better connection (and also Blu-ray) would improve that even more, I'd really like that.

It would improve it drastically by using the "Y/Pb/Pr" connection as oppose to using S-Video. By all means, get the cable for that projector and enjoy some real HD. As to the HD disc I'm not sure how that works especially during playback. I think the only time you will get the HD from it is unless you play it back in the computer.
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post #19 of 23
2/13/09 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Grate
It would improve it drastically by using the "Y/Pb/Pr" connection as oppose to using S-Video. By all means, get the cable for that projector and enjoy some real HD. As to the HD disc I'm not sure how that works especially during playback. I think the only time you will get the HD from it is unless you play it back in the computer.

Sounds good.

But the disc I'm referring to was a rewritable CD or DVD, depending on which one was big enough.
They were just some downloaded trailers for a game called 'Team Fortress 2'.
The computer-animations for that are tight anyway, so that might have helped.
Plus, I think it was held back by the fact it was played on a DVD-player.
Which would make it SD again(?), but it did look good.

If that's nothing near the quality of Blu-ray, even through my stuff, that would be awesome.
Since currently... it looks acceptable, but the blur and things like that get boring after a while.

Now I also wonder if it depends on the quality of the lamp.
If there is a difference between cheaper and more expensive lamps for example.
Maybe mine isn't that sharp anyway.
Or is the overall resolution of the projector based in the lamp itself?
So say my lamp's resolution would be that 1024x768, as it would project that many dots or something.
Or is the outcome based on the lamp combined with other parts of the projector?
Actually, that must be or everyone would just buy a better lamp...

Oh well, it's limited to that resolution anyway, but I hope it becomes sharper.
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post #20 of 23
2/13/09 at 7:45am

Re: Backward Compatibility

No. Lamps don't have a resolution. It's the chip that the lamp shine off of or through! On your DLP projector the resolution is basically determined by the density of micro-mirrors on the DLP chip, it's a small device with a bunch of tiny mirrors that rapidly flip back and forth either reflecting light to the screen or not. The number of these mirrors determines your resolution unless it is using wobulation.
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post #21 of 23
2/13/09 at 8:40am
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Tu
No. Lamps don't have a resolution. It's the chip that the lamp shine off of or through! On your DLP projector the resolution is basically determined by the density of micro-mirrors on the DLP chip, it's a small device with a bunch of tiny mirrors that rapidly flip back and forth either reflecting light to the screen or not. The number of these mirrors determines your resolution unless it is using wobulation.

OK, so the lamp is just for projection-matters.
But basically just thinking if there would be such a thing as SD- and HD-lamps.
I guess then it's about the chip that determines the quality.

Kind of dazzles me why the lamps have to be so ridiculously expensive most of the time.
Especially since they are so fragile and they are consumables.
That case probably has to do with how it's made.
It reminds me a lot of like (other) tube-technologies, glass bulbs, heat, expensive, but great qualities.


Another question:

What do I have to look out for with those Component>VGA-cables?
Are there specific brands (or types) besides the ones that are $50,- per foot?
Before I pick up a crappy one, try it and go like "Hay, it doesn't matter at all... ".
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post #22 of 23
2/13/09 at 9:07am

Re: Backward Compatibility

Monoprice has all you need. You don't need cables that's priced so much per foot. Monoprice cables are really well built.
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post #23 of 23
2/13/09 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Backward Compatibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Grate
Monoprice has all you need. You don't need cables that's priced so much per foot. Monoprice cables are really well built.

Ah yeah, that's like their own store-brand then?
I was actually thinking of buying something around here (The Netherlands).
Maybe that would be more convenient if any issues should occur.
I see they do ship internationally, not sure if overseas too, but then it just depends on the shipping-costs too.
Might become more expensive than the thing itself. XD
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