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Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hello, all...I joined this forum years ago back when DVD was just busting into the mass consumer market. Looking through these posts I was reminded of how much knowledge there is among the forum "regulars". I'm hoping you can help me out.

I've not paid much attention to HD or Blu-Ray in recent years, because budget didn't allow. Well, I did some saving and some online research, and a few days ago I purchased a 46" Samsung LCD (LN46A650) and a Sony Blu-Ray player (BDP-S350).

I'm struggling a little bit with picture calibration. The Blu-Ray player is connected via HDMI, and the first thing I tested out was an old (non BD) disc of SW: The Phantom Menace. The image quality was so incredibly sharp (and possibly too bright?) that it detracted from the film. The movie had a quality that my wife described as looking like "a soap opera" and looking like "we're watching a behind the scenes feature". I googled and found others complaining with the exact same features.

I've done some random image calibration, but I feel a bit like I'm flailing...and don't have a solid approach. To increase the confusion, there are many calibrations to be made on the TV, and some on the Blu-Ray player as well.

Last night, I threw in another DVD (Lindsey Buckingham Soundstage) and noticed that the closeups were incredibly sharp but far away shots of the stage and audience were messy...not sure if those are technically called "artifacts"...but it's frustrating.

That was a much too long way to ask this: For someone like me who is comfortable with technology but not well-versed in the HD world, what are my simplest DIY steps to getting the best picture out of my television? Are calibration DVDs the way to go? Are there web sites that post other people's configuration numbers? Any old or "sticky" threads I should be reading?

Just interested in any sage advise that the HT gurus on this forum could offer.

Thanks,

Matt
post #2 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Hm, reading what you mentioned at first "looking like a soap opera and looking like we're watching a behind the scenes feature",
reminds me of an issue I had recently:

This might not be what you mean, but it was that the image, as others described it, was too "live".
As if it was either some studio-recording or a home-video.
The image was sharp but it looked "fake" and things like that.
Turned out it was probably the "MotionFlow" and technologies like that.

Then further on you mention about the foreground being sharp and the background or farther away being more of a blur.
That typically sounds like a DVD actually, but it can also be shot that way.

Also, keep in mind that Blu-ray-players don't make your DVDs BRDs.
They upconvert the image to fill the screen, but it won't become true full HD (1080).
Which can explain DVD-video still showing less sharp images than you might expect putting it in an HD-player.

For calibrating anything, I highly recommend using a bunch of those calibration-discs.
But just be sure you get it for the right devices and try to find the more official ones.
Like I used one from Monster/ISF to calibrate the image and some discs from DTS and Dolby for the audio.

I'm no guru even though I'm technically quite handy,
but these calibrations helped out the image a lot and helped me understand the settings and devices a lot better.
post #3 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

That Soap opera effect is almost certainly because of the motion processing the TV is doing. Try turning AMP down or off and see how you like it. Also, you'll need to turn AMP off in order to take advantage of the 5:5 pulldown for 24 Hz material (and there may be other things you need to do; I don't have that TV, so not sure of all the details).

As far as calibrating your TV, that "other" forum has a lot of information on that. I like HTF for getting information about films and BDs/DVDs, but I find AVS to be better for pure hardware information.
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
As if it was either some studio-recording or a home-video.
The image was sharp but it looked "fake" and things like that.

Exactly correct.

Turning off the 120hz correction stuff did seem to help that quite a bit.
post #5 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Keller
Exactly correct.

Turning off the 120hz correction stuff did seem to help that quite a bit.

Yeah, cause they told me what it does is put more frames in between the original frames.
Which makes it "flow" better, rather than having the sort of classic "flicker" you shóuld have in the bigger films.

I totally freaked out about HD or Blu-ray actually, I thought they'd look like that all the time.
Good thing it was the screens to blame...

Oh yeah, I visited the store, where I saw these screens, again later.
And it looked great then (except for one) it seemed like they had turned of the "MotionFlow".


By the way:
If you're still worried about the brightness and all those things, you should try and download one of these calibration-discs.
Now, I think they're normally not free and I hope I'm not breaking a rule here, I usually don't support/encourage pirating etc.

But, just in my opinion, these things ought to be free to use, or even come with your TV or whatever you buy.
They act like they really want you to have your image right,
but at the same time they ask a lot of money for these discs while you already paid up for the product.
On top of that, there isn't really thát much on most of these discs.
I'd feel incredibly ripped off if I'd have bought it, heck I already felt that way just having burnt it.
But it's your choice and it depends on the price of course.

After doing it a couple of times though, you'll know how to use the settings if you're a bit handy.
However, it's always handy to have something to work off, like recordings just for calibrating.
Only next time without the instructions anymore, I could do those myself by now. XD
post #6 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

You should get the DVE (Digital Video Essentials:HD Basics) calibration disc.
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Video-...4294020&sr=8-1
It will help you get it looking about as good as it can be, without a professional ISF calibration. You can try using the THX Optimizer that's found on a lot of Disney's dvds. It should help, until you can do better.
Good luck!
post #7 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Motion Flow and other interpolation functions are the TV manufacturers attempt to make film look like real life. Too bad they never stopped to realize that in real life, film looks like film.
post #8 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

It really annoys me how much effort is made (motion flow, DNR, etc.) to destroy the look of film.
post #9 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
It really annoys me how much effort is made (motion flow, DNR, etc.) to destroy the look of film.

Reminds me of a conversation:

Film detractor: They should make the Blu-ray without the grain, cause HD should be like looking out my window!!

Me: Yeah, why just last night I looked out my window and saw a Star Destroyer coming over the horizon and a couple of Wookies getting busy in my hedges.
post #10 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

In all fairness, I don't believe that the motion processing is intended to make film look like real life. I believe it's an attempt to solve some of the motion issues with LCD-based displays. This is why only LCD TVs have the motion processing.

I don't have an LCD display, so it's not an issue for me. However, if I did have one, I would definitely turn the motion processing off so that I could get 5:5 pulldown to get rid of 3:2 judder.
post #11 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McHale
In all fairness, I don't believe that the motion processing is intended to make film look like real life. I believe it's an attempt to solve some of the motion issues with LCD-based displays. This is why only LCD TVs have the motion processing.

Quote:
Motionflow™ 120HZ technology doubles the frame rate to help remove judder in film sources, HD content, broadcast movies and primetime programming, creating smoother, more fluid motion that delivers a natural and realistic viewing experience.

KDL-70XBR7 | 70" BRAVIA® XBR® LCD Flat Panel HDTV | Sony | SonyStyle USA
post #12 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Different companies probably claim to be wanting different or both things.

Some want to make it "realistic" as if it's happening right in front of you.
In that case I highly agree it's not helping the looks of films, they have this specific style to them.

Some want to probably fix the LCD-issues, but I rather just have them leave alone the actual more natural image.
Not trying to make it even more natural and such things.

And some probably want to do both.
But at the same time I also think they just claim that, because of trying to making one thing better, there is also a side-effect.
Which they might desperately call "MotionFlow" or anything like that.

In the end, it's pretty much just something to make the average consumer go "OOOH! MUST... HAVE... NEW... TECHNOLOGY!...". *buy*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Reminds me of a conversation:

Film detractor: They should make the Blu-ray without the grain, cause HD should be like looking out my window!!

Me: Yeah, why just last night I looked out my window and saw a Star Destroyer coming over the horizon and a couple of Wookies getting busy in my hedges.


I however don't agree that all grain should be eliminated.
Some films just look great with it, it gives this style, like "dull" or something.
But I'm not saying it should be with every movie.
Like take the example above, 'Star Wars' isn't exactly one that I "must see with grain", but rather full (normal) and lush colors.

Do they ADD grain then actually? To Blu-rays I mean...
That would be weird, I actually thought it was just in the film itself or something like that.
On top of that also the HD making every detail, including grain, extra clear.


Anyway, the THX-calibration included on some DVD-titles is also really nice.
I used the one on the 'Titanic'-DVD and it's really easy and clear.
A lot more interactive than the Monster/ISF-one too.
Plus it also helps you check the audio-signals.

Makes me think, I also used a couple of calibration-menus added to PlayStation2-games.
So if you have a PS2 or PS3 and a bunch of games, some might have something like that.
It's usually a lot simpler, with some gray blocks only and a small description how to set the brightness best.
Plus it might be more aimed to calibrate the games, but you can use it all.
post #13 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Reminds me of a conversation:

Film detractor: They should make the Blu-ray without the grain, cause HD should be like looking out my window!!

Me: Yeah, why just last night I looked out my window and saw a Star Destroyer coming over the horizon and a couple of Wookies getting busy in my hedges.
Yeah, and you heard lasers being fired with a loud zapping sound, and the beams were highly visible, and you saw a fistfight where each blow sounded like a piece of Naughahide was being slapped, and you saw someone thrown violently backwards when he was shot.
post #14 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Let's try that same quote with a different emphasis:

Quote:
Motionflow™ 120HZ technology doubles the frame rate to help remove judder in film sources, HD content, broadcast movies and primetime programming, creating smoother, more fluid motion that delivers a natural and realistic viewing experience.

Their goal is to improve movement. If it was to make the picture look more real, why don't they use this technology on plasma or DLP TVs? Answer: because they don't have the motion issues that LCD displays have.

Edit: I thought about a better way to word this. The motion processing is trying to make the motion look more natural and realistic, not the picture.
post #15 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
I however don't agree that all grain should be eliminated.
Some films just look great with it, it gives this style, like "dull" or something.
But I'm not saying it should be with every movie.
Like take the example above, 'Star Wars' isn't exactly one that I "must see with grain", but rather full (normal) and lush colors.

Who said I wanted grain removed? I like grain. Film is the canvas, grain is the brushstrokes. As far as I'm concerned, if it is in the original, it should be in the BD.
post #16 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McHale
Let's try that same quote with a different emphasis:



Their goal is to improve movement. If it was to make the picture look more real, why don't they use this technology on plasma or DLP TVs? Answer: because they don't have the motion issues that LCD displays have.

Edit: I thought about a better way to word this. The motion processing is trying to make the motion look more natural and realistic, not the picture.

Right. More natural and realistic motion. Kind of like "real life".
post #17 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Who said I wanted grain removed? I like grain. Film is the canvas, grain is the brushstrokes. As far as I'm concerned, if it is in the original, it should be in the BD.

Well, I understood it as if you wanted to get rid of it too.
Because you quoted the following:


Film detractor: They should make the Blu-ray without the grain, cause HD should be like looking out my window!!


(Wants the Blu-ray without grain "cause HD should be as good as real".)

Me: Yeah, why just last night I looked out my window and saw a Star Destroyer coming over the horizon and a couple of Wookies getting busy in my hedges.

(You said "yeah", so I thought you were agreeing and explaining why in a fun way.)


But yeah, I didn't mean like edit the way any original is.
Only, as I understood if they'd actually ADD it to the Blu-ray-versions, that would be... quite concerning...
But, as said, I also like grain, as long as it fits the style or doesn't look ugly.
post #18 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Matthew,

The fact that already sharp picture elements look significantly sharper (and even unnatural) on your screen than more blurry parts, suggest the application of additional edge-enhancement in your TV set.

Many TV-sets have a factory setting that is too sharp for BD content.
The setting may be fine for HD broadcasts (which seldom are better than 720p anyway), but involve some EE you don't want for real HD content.

Problem is: the BD-player probably upconverted (and enhanced) your image enough already, so you don't want your TV to give it an extra pass.

If your TV allows different settings for different HDMI- or other input channels, that could be a good solution to keep the original setting when watching Channel and a "movie" setting when watching BD (mine hasn't, and I often forget to switch when looking at the different type of content, so I keep the "movie" version as a default ).

If you calibrate, it's best done with a BD calibration disc, as suggested above already. DVD versions simply aren't good enough for that.

The fact that upgraded SDVD images are as good as they appear to be, is a great property of the BD-players (and the HD DVD-players before), because it preserves your SDVD library: you only need to upgrade to a BD release if you really like to.

Good luck stepping technically into this HD world.


Cees
post #19 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc.
Well, I understood it as if you wanted to get rid of it too.
Because you quoted the following:


Film detractor: They should make the Blu-ray without the grain, cause HD should be like looking out my window!!


(Wants the Blu-ray without grain "cause HD should be as good as real".)

Me: Yeah, why just last night I looked out my window and saw a Star Destroyer coming over the horizon and a couple of Wookies getting busy in my hedges.

(You said "yeah", so I thought you were agreeing and explaining why in a fun way.)


But yeah, I didn't mean like edit the way any original is.
Only, as I understood if they'd actually ADD it to the Blu-ray-versions, that would be... quite concerning...
But, as said, I also like grain, as long as it fits the style or doesn't look ugly.

My "yeah" was dismissive sarcasm (actually, it was dripping dismissive sarcasm ). Hence it being followed by completely impossible variations of the film detractor's original "Blu-rays should look like real life" statement.

Hang around a little, you will realize that much of what I post is dismissive sarcasm.
post #20 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
My "yeah" was dismissive sarcasm (actually, it was dripping dismissive sarcasm ). Hence it being followed by completely impossible variations of the film detractor's original "Blu-rays should look like real life" statement.

Hang around a little, you will realize that much of what I post is dismissive sarcasm.

Alright, I only thought of that later.
It's not always obvious in text.
post #21 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Right. More natural and realistic motion. Kind of like "real life".
The point is that they are not trying to make the "picture" look more life like, only the "motion". They are not trying to make it look like you're looking out a window, they're trying to make things move more smoothly, without judder. In real life, you don't see "judder", you see continuous motion.

The fact that the image looks more like real life than film is a side effect, not a goal.
post #22 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McHale
The fact that the image looks more like real life than film is a side effect, not a goal.

Exactly, that's also what makes it looks strange and like... "cheap", in a way.
post #23 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McHale
The point is that they are not trying to make the "picture" look more life like, only the "motion". They are not trying to make it look like you're looking out a window, they're trying to make things move more smoothly, without judder. In real life, you don't see "judder", you see continuous motion.

The fact that the image looks more like real life than film is a side effect, not a goal.

I didn't say "picture" or "image", I said film. Meaning they are trying to make the look of film into the look of real life - motion, picture, judder, image; whatever they call what they are trying to fix, it don't need fixin!!
post #24 of 24

Re: Annoying newbie questions about HD picture quality and BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
I didn't say "picture" or "image", I said film. Meaning they are trying to make the look of film into the look of real life - motion, picture, judder, image; whatever they call what they are trying to fix, it don't need fixin!!

They are not “trying to make the look of film into the look of real life”. They really aren’t. They are trying to solve the very real problem of motion artifacts that result from the sample and hold technology used in LCD displays. Yes, this does “need fixin”. It is one of two big problems that LCD displays have (the other being mediocre black levels).

Their solution to this is 2-part. First, they upped the refresh rate to 120 Hz. Second, they added frame interpolation processing to insert frames to try to resolve some of the artifacts. In my opinion, there are two problems with this. The first is that the technology just isn’t that advanced and doesn’t look very good, resulting in the so-called “soap opera effect” (once again, they were not trying to attain this look, it is a simple side effect of the process). The second is that this not only removes 3:2 judder, it also removes 24 Hz judder, which takes away the feel of film.

The good news is that, with some of these sets, you can turn off the motion processing and take advantage of 5:5 pulldown. This gets rid of the 3:2 judder inherent in most TVs, providing a more film-like image.
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