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Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

post #1 of 26
2/9/09 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone, this is my first post so please bear with me. I have a Yamaha RX-V1000 AV Receiver driving my home's stereo system through in-ceiling speakers. Eventually I am going to hook up the surround sound, but as for right now, I use the AV receiver to play music throughout my home in 4 different rooms. The way everything is wired is that I have one speaker cabinet totalling 500W hooked straight to my Main Speaker A terminals, where the channel is rated to 100W on the receiver. My Main Speaker B terminals have 3 speaker cabinets totalling 1300 watts soldered together, this channel also rated to 100W on the receiver. Each speaker cabinet on the Main B Speakers has a 216Watt volume control impedance matched to 4 ohms.

Herin lies my problem. When I play music, the sound from the Main Speaker A speakers are much louder than the sound coming from my Main Speaker B speakers, I'm assuming because there's so much more load on the Main speaker B's. I can't dull the music on my main speaker A's because they have no volume control on them, and I didn't think they should, since they'll be part of the surround sound. My only other thought would be to put an amp on my B speakers, but wouldn't I have to manually turn that on and off each time I wanted to listen to them? I am trying to make it so I can get an even volume coming from the A and B speakers conveniently, and ANY input would be greatly appreciated, given my setup. Thanks to anyone willing to help me!
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post #2 of 26
2/9/09 at 2:06pm

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Wattage ratings on speakers are mostly meaningless. That's like telling me your your Ferrari will do 200mph but you only drive it to the grocery store.

At least you have an impedance matching volume control on one speaker set. The impedance that each channel of your receiver is seeing will help. But my guess is that the sensitivity of each set of speakers is different.

Finally, how do you have 1 speaker on your A terminals and 3 on your B terminals? How are you getting a good stereo image in your listening room?

-Robert
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post #3 of 26
2/9/09 at 2:16pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Hi Robert and thanks for taking the time to respond. I understand what you mean about the speaker wattage rating, but these are just Pyle speakers and their RMS isn't listed.

On the A speaker set, the cabinet is wired directly. Whereas on the B speakers, 3 cabinets are all soldered together (3 wires placed together in each banana plug), sending the same signal to each of the 3 speaker cabinets. I was going to use a speaker selector, but the guys at best buy told me to do it this way and use impedance matching volume control and that would work better, considering what I wanted to use them for.

They play music fine I think, so I'm not sure what you mean about getting good stereo volume in my main listening room. My biggest problem now is when I have all speakers on at the same time. The A's are twice as loud as any of my B's, even though some of the B's are the same exact speakers. I'd like to get all of them to match in volume somehow.

If I need an amp on my B's because they're lacking power, what size amp should I get? I'd rather not have to add another big component like that, if at all avoidable.
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post #4 of 26
2/10/09 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Anyone? I know there are people in here that know this stuff.
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post #5 of 26
2/11/09 at 4:40am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Try to hear only the left channel on both speakers at equal volume level.
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post #6 of 26
2/11/09 at 7:02am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kp4567
Try to hear only the left channel on both speakers at equal volume level.

Thanks for responding, but I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me to do here. Unplug the right channels on all speakers? Would this yield some type of diagnostic result?
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post #7 of 26
2/11/09 at 7:13am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

1) are you saying that you have two speakers on the A outputs, one left and one right?
2) are there six speakers on the B outputs, three for left and three for right?

3) are the B output speakers wired in parallel, that is the "red" wire from each of the three speakers is connected to the "red" banana plug and likewise the "black" wires of each speaker connected to the "black" banana plug? (the colors might be different, but the scheme is the same; red might be white, black might be clear, whatever - but same is hooked to same) OR are they "chained" in series, where the red of one is hooked to the black of the next?

4) are the impedance matching volume controls turned all the way up? I assume this is what we call an "L-pad" volume control. Or do you have small transformers with several wires (taps) used to set the volume (wattage) of each speaker?

5) are all of the speakers EXACTLY the same?

6) what is the impedance (ohms) of each speaker?

I'll get to the bottom of this!!
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post #8 of 26
2/11/09 at 9:58am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckg
1) are you saying that you have two speakers on the A outputs, one left and one right?
2) are there six speakers on the B outputs, three for left and three for right?

3) are the B output speakers wired in parallel, that is the "red" wire from each of the three speakers is connected to the "red" banana plug and likewise the "black" wires of each speaker connected to the "black" banana plug? (the colors might be different, but the scheme is the same; red might be white, black might be clear, whatever - but same is hooked to same) OR are they "chained" in series, where the red of one is hooked to the black of the next?

4) are the impedance matching volume controls turned all the way up? I assume this is what we call an "L-pad" volume control. Or do you have small transformers with several wires (taps) used to set the volume (wattage) of each speaker?

5) are all of the speakers EXACTLY the same?

6) what is the impedance (ohms) of each speaker?

I'll get to the bottom of this!!

Hi Chuck and thank you for taking the time to help out!

1. Yes, one left speaker and one right speaker.
2. Yes, 3 lefts and 3 rights.
3. All speakers on the B set are wired in parallel, 14 gauge wire, no runs over 50 feet.
4. The volume controls are all the way up. There is no transformer on the speaker to adjust the wattage.
5. No. Speakers A are 8-Inch Pyle 250W speakers. Speakers B have two pairs of the same speaker, but then one 400W two-channel speaker.
6. Each speaker is rated 4-8 ohms.

Thanks Chuck!
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post #9 of 26
2/13/09 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Anyone have an explanation why I'm having this problem?
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post #10 of 26
2/17/09 at 7:26am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Still without a solution, anyone?
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post #11 of 26
2/17/09 at 7:40am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

I don't see how you can divide your power to multiple speakers like that and expect the same volume as your set that is undivided, without using separate amp or speaker selector so that you are driving only one at at a time.
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post #12 of 26
2/17/09 at 7:44am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Tu
I don't see how you can divide your power to multiple speakers like that and expect the same volume as your set that is undivided, without using separate amp or speaker selector so that you are driving only one at at a time.

Wasn't really sure what to expect. It's how I was told to set it up by the Best Buy folk. I don't know much. I take it that without an amp, I won't be able to attain the same volume levels then. Thanks for your help.
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post #13 of 26
2/17/09 at 7:57am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Your impedance matching volume controls are responsible for cutting the volume. You simply do not have the power to drive the speakers at the combined impedance (your amp would fry because the combined impedance would be very low), so you have to match impedance with the volume controls. Matching impedance means power is lost to each speaker. It's simple physics - you can't get something from nothing, and you can't drive 3 pairs of speakers from one amp made for one pair, without losing power.
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post #14 of 26
2/17/09 at 8:00am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Your impedance matching volume controls are responsible for cutting the volume. You simply do not have the power to drive the speakers at the combined impedance (your amp would fry because the combined impedance would be very low), so you have to match impedance with the volume controls. Matching impedance means power is lost to each speaker. It's simple physics - you can't get something from nothing, and you can't drive 3 pairs of speakers from one amp made for one pair, without losing power.

Got it, I think. So are you telling me an external amp to get more power is my only option to even out the speakers, because right now there just isn't enough power from the internal amp on the AV Receiver? Or am I still misunderstanding.
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post #15 of 26
2/17/09 at 8:02am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mginevan
Got it, I think. So are you telling me an external amp to get more power is my only option to even out the speakers, because right now there just isn't enough power from the internal amp on the AV Receiver? Or am I still misunderstanding.

You've got it.
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post #16 of 26
2/17/09 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Thanks Jeff, then I guess my last question would be, considering my set-up, what size amp would be appropriate? 1500W?

Do I ened to manually turn these things on everytime I want to use them, or can they be incorporated into a universal remote macro?
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post #17 of 26
2/17/09 at 12:14pm

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mginevan
Hi everyone, this is my first post so please bear with me. I have a Yamaha RX-V1000 AV Receiver driving my home's stereo system through in-ceiling speakers. Eventually I am going to hook up the surround sound, but as for right now, I use the AV receiver to play music throughout my home in 4 different rooms. The way everything is wired is that I have one speaker cabinet totalling 500W hooked straight to my Main Speaker A terminals, where the channel is rated to 100W on the receiver. My Main Speaker B terminals have 3 speaker cabinets totalling 1300 watts soldered together, this channel also rated to 100W on the receiver. Each speaker cabinet on the Main B Speakers has a 216Watt volume control impedance matched to 4 ohms.

Herin lies my problem. When I play music, the sound from the Main Speaker A speakers are much louder than the sound coming from my Main Speaker B speakers, I'm assuming because there's so much more load on the Main speaker B's. I can't dull the music on my main speaker A's because they have no volume control on them, and I didn't think they should, since they'll be part of the surround sound. My only other thought would be to put an amp on my B speakers, but wouldn't I have to manually turn that on and off each time I wanted to listen to them? I am trying to make it so I can get an even volume coming from the A and B speakers conveniently, and ANY input would be greatly appreciated, given my setup. Thanks to anyone willing to help me!
I understand that on the A chain, you have a L and R speaker on the L & R output, each at 8 ohms. Then on the B Chain, you have three Left and three Right speakers wired in parallel. Assuming they are nominally 8 ohm speakers, you're driving the equivalent of a 2.7 ohm speaker on the B chain. As most consumer receivers are designed for nominal impedance of 8 ohms, and perhaps 4, driving the equivalent of a 2.7 ohm speaker doesn't seem like the best approach.

Further, the three speakers in the B-chain are different. So you're driving three different types of speakers in varying impedances with different equivalent power supplies. You should expect noticeable, probably substantial, volume differences between the speakers.

As for what Best Buy people told you...maybe your store is different than mine, but I think you're safer just assuming they know nothing beyond prices and return policy. I can't imagine taking wiring advice from the kids that typically work there.

Since your receiver hasn't blown its fuse or burnt out, it seems you're not overloading it. So if it doesn't bother you too much, you're probably good go. Otherwise, as Jeff says, you need additional amps.

Another option with your 8 speakers: connect 5 to the A output 5-channel surround outputs, two to the B stereo outputs and ignore the 8th. Set your receiver to 5-channel Stereo. Now all speakers are run in approximately equal fashion; I'd guess your volume would even out appreciably.
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post #18 of 26
2/17/09 at 1:14pm

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Since your receiver hasn't blown its fuse or burnt out, it seems you're not overloading it.

The impedance matching volume controls will take care of that. They will up the impedance to an average of their value, these are 4 Ohms, as stated. So he's not going to blow the amplifier, but he's going to severely limit the power available.
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post #19 of 26
2/17/09 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Thanks everyone for the input. Anyone familiar with what size amp I should eb buying for this setup? And if they make ones that don't have a manual power button and can be turned on digitally from a remote?
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post #20 of 26
2/17/09 at 6:28pm

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
The impedance matching volume controls will take care of that. They will up the impedance to an average of their value, these are 4 Ohms, as stated. So he's not going to blow the amplifier, but he's going to severely limit the power available.
Is that an electronic automatch? Because he doesn't have a "4 ohm" speaker, he has a 1.33 ohm speaker equivalent (three 4 ohm speakers in parallel). I'm unfamiliar with impedance matching features on receivers; I'm drawing from long forgotten EE undergrad classes.

mginevan - why can't you simply connect one speaker per surround output as I suggested? You've got at least 7 individual speaker outputs. Or do you also have a surround setup connected as well?

Here's a fun little website for playing with these impedance numbers
Series Parallel Speaker Impedance
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post #21 of 26
2/17/09 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
Is that an electronic automatch? Because he doesn't have a "4 ohm" speaker, he has a 1.33 ohm speaker equivalent (three 4 ohm speakers in parallel). I'm unfamiliar with impedance matching features on receivers; I'm drawing from long forgotten EE undergrad classes.

mginevan - why can't you simply connect one speaker per surround output as I suggested? You've got at least 7 individual speaker outputs. Or do you also have a surround setup connected as well?

Here's a fun little website for playing with these impedance numbers
Series Parallel Speaker Impedance

Hey there. I would definitely do your idea because it seems the most easy, but I have plans to hook up Surround Sound to the receiver, as well.
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post #22 of 26
2/17/09 at 8:02pm

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
Is that an electronic automatch? Because he doesn't have a "4 ohm" speaker, he has a 1.33 ohm speaker equivalent (three 4 ohm speakers in parallel). I'm unfamiliar with impedance matching features on receivers; I'm drawing from long forgotten EE undergrad classes.

mginevan - why can't you simply connect one speaker per surround output as I suggested? You've got at least 7 individual speaker outputs. Or do you also have a surround setup connected as well?

Here's a fun little website for playing with these impedance numbers
Series Parallel Speaker Impedance

The impedance matching is within the external volume controls.

Like these:White Impedance Matching Speaker Volume Control - Smarthome
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post #23 of 26
2/18/09 at 8:28am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Ok, that makes more sense. I was wondering if you could toss a resistor into the chain to even it out (which has obvious problems). This is the right way to do manage the effective resistance from the parallel speaker wiring.
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post #24 of 26
2/19/09 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Lots of valuable info in here, but I'm still wondering what size amp to buy. Anyone?
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post #25 of 26
2/20/09 at 8:30am

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

I'd guesstimate that you need amps equal to the total power needed to each speaker. If you have 100 W/channel going to L & R speakers on the A chain, then you want 300 W/ch for the three-chained speakers on the B-channel. Or 3x100 W/ch amps for the three pairs of speakers.

I doubt you really need that much, since you're probably not maxing out the volume on those B-chain speakers. Do you have an old receiver you can assign to the task? It might have enough headroom for the job.
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post #26 of 26
2/20/09 at 8:36am
Thread Starter 

Re: Question about Home Stereo Set-up. Please advise my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
I'd guesstimate that you need amps equal to the total power needed to each speaker. If you have 100 W/channel going to L & R speakers on the A chain, then you want 300 W/ch for the three-chained speakers on the B-channel. Or 3x100 W/ch amps for the three pairs of speakers.

I doubt you really need that much, since you're probably not maxing out the volume on those B-chain speakers. Do you have an old receiver you can assign to the task? It might have enough headroom for the job.

Hey Dave, thanks for your help. I don't have an old receiver, but I started thinking about just getting one to maybe make this whole process more simple. If not though, I am assuming you're suggesting I get a 300W amp there? Does it matter that I already have 100W going to the speakers? Sorry I just don't understand the math that would make it all add up, whether it's by simple addition or if there's some type of equation the smart guys use to gauge wattage needed.
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