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Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?  

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Blu ray all the way. Only, there are at least a couple titles that have been only put out on HD-DVD that I really want and their less than A level status might make for a long wait or never (Cat People and Forbidden Planet).

Is it possible to have HD video from HD DVD burned to blu-ray? I ask this because maybe I will actually decide to pick up these HD-DVD titles so that if they never come, at least I have the video that is possible to convert sometime in the future.
post #2 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

You won't get answer to this question publicly. Ripping HD DVDs to Blu-ray (if possible) would require discussing how to defeat copyright protection systems. Such discussion is not allowed on this site.
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
You won't get answer to this question publicly. Ripping HD DVDs to Blu-ray (if possible) would require discussing how to defeat copyright protection systems. Such discussion is not allowed on this site.

I see, I thought making sure it is from a copy that I own would be okay but I grasp that the mechanics of the process would involve defeating copy protection and that would be used in other ways than converting a bought HD DVD to blu ray for my use.
post #4 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rogers
I see, I thought making sure it is from a copy that I own would be okay but I grasp that the mechanics of the process would involve defeating copy protection and that would be used in other ways than converting a bought HD DVD to blu ray for my use.

Yes. Discussion for purposes of defeating copy protection is discouraged even for purposes of archival backup. Personally, the expense of buying an HD DVD computer drive + a BD read/write drive + whatever software is required just would not be worth it for the few HD DVD titles that remain unreleased on BD. I believe that, eventually, every title that has been released on HD DVD will make it to BD in time.
post #5 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

There are a couple hybrid drives out there that read HD-DVD and read/write Blu-Ray.

As a Laserdisc collector with a stack of titles still unreleased on DVD, I'm not exactly holding my breath for all remaining HD-DVD titles to make the leap to Blu! Besides, the fire sale prices are too good to pass up.
post #6 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rogers
I see, I thought making sure it is from a copy that I own would be okay but I grasp that the mechanics of the process would involve defeating copy protection and that would be used in other ways than converting a bought HD DVD to blu ray for my use.


Making a copy of a video that you own is perfectly legal under fair use rulings, however defeating the copy protection on said video violates the millennium copyright law.

It's kind of a catch 22.

Doug
post #7 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Making a copy of a video that you own is perfectly legal under fair use rulings
So people keep saying, but every time I ask someone to show me such a ruling, I get no answer.

If you own a copy of a video, you own it under specific license. The license may or may not include the right to make a copy. (Software licenses, to use a different example, routinely include the right to make a backup copy.)

I am unaware of any ruling that expands the definition of "fair use" as you've described it, but I'm always happy to learn. Citations?
post #8 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverWook
As a Laserdisc collector with a stack of titles still unreleased on DVD, I'm not exactly holding my breath for all remaining HD-DVD titles to make the leap to Blu! Besides, the fire sale prices are too good to pass up.

The two situations aren't remotely analagous. Laserdisc was an entrenched format that had existed from the early days of home video. By the time DVD came along in 1997 there were thousands of laserdisc titles, most of them released under licenses that were not transferable to DVD. The majority of films once released on VHS and/or laserdisc that are not available on DVD are either extremely obscure (viable on LD because it was already such a niche market) or tied up in rights issues.

HD-DVD was around for a comparitive eyeblink, and there are no legal barriers to releasing titles once issued on HD-DVD as Blu Ray discs now. If anything it is a matter of prioritizing releases and getting the most sales bang for the buck. Most DVDs of all formats get the majority of their sales when the films are new to video. So issuing a BD of a film released "new" on DVD and HD-DVD two years ago today doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense from a marketing stand-point. Better to wait for the 10th anniversary, or the sequel, or for one of the folks involved in the film to win an Oscar or be connected with a blockbuster so there is something to advertise and to goose the sales of an "old" title.

And you're right: The legal doctrine of "fair use" has nothing whatsoever to do with making back up copies of DVDs for archive purposes. It is revealing that none of the people who appeal to "fair use" appear to have any idea what the law actually has to say on the subject:

Quote:
The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

So, what about those back-up copies? That right only applies to computer software, which may have to be reinstalled in order to function, so an archive copy of the original media is allowed. Reproduction of other material is explicitly not allowed.

Quote:
Can I backup my computer software?

Yes, under certain conditions as provided by section 117 of the Copyright Act. Although the precise term used under section 117 is “archival” copy, not “backup” copy, these terms today are used interchangeably. This privilege extends only to computer programs and not to other types of works.

Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if:
  • the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only;
  • you are the legal owner of the copy; and
  • any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred.
You are not permitted under section 117 to make a backup copy of other material on a computer's hard drive, such as other copyrighted works that have been downloaded (e.g., music, films).

It is also important to check the terms of sale or license agreement of the original copy of software in case any special conditions have been put in place by the copyright owner that might affect your ability or right under section 117 to make a backup copy. There is no other provision in the Copyright Act that specifically authorizes the making of backup copies of works other than computer programs even if those works are distributed as digital copies.
(Emphasis added.)

It isn't hard to get the real facts about this stuff. I just went to www.copyright.gov and searched on "fair use" and "archive".

Regards,

Joe
post #9 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
And you're right: The legal doctrine of "fair use" has nothing whatsoever to do with making back up copies of DVDs for archive purposes.
I know, Joe. Behind that request for citations I'm always asking is the fact that I took copyright in law school, and I do know the fair use doctrine.

The problem is that people are passionately wedded to this urban legend that "fair use" lets them copy entire films for personal use. So even though there's no basis for it, they'll keep repeating it, because they think it should be that way. But it won't fly here.

I'll leave this thread open a while longer, in case anyone wants to comment further.
post #10 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino


So, what about those back-up copies? That right only applies to computer software, which may have to be reinstalled in order to function, so an archive copy of the original media is allowed. Reproduction of other material is explicitly not allowed.

(Emphasis added.)

It isn't hard to get the real facts about this stuff. I just went to www.copyright.gov and searched on "fair use" and "archive".

Regards,

Joe


This depends on your definition of computer software. It could be argued that DVD, and all digital video formats are in fact computer software.

It was my understanding that the same rulings that allowed the Betamax to be sold in the United States in the first place, allowed for the coping of movies and television programs for personal use only. That genie was already out of the bottle, so the recent laws only made it illegal to crack the digital encryption. The key here in the Betamax ruling was the term "personal use" and allowed for the recording of TV shows and movies for purposes of time shifting. What the source of that copy was is nebulous.

Of course laws are written in such a way that they can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

Doug
post #11 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
It was my understanding that the same rulings that allowed the Betamax to be sold in the United States in the first place, allowed for the coping of movies and television programs for personal use only. That genie was already out of the bottle, so the recent laws only made it illegal to crack the digital encryption. The key here in the Betamax ruling was the term "personal use" and allowed for the recording of TV shows and movies for purposes of time shifting. What the source of that copy was is nebulous.
Your "understanding" is understandable, because this myth has gained currency through repetition. It is, however, without basis.

There is only one Betamax decision with any controlling authority, and it's the one from the Supreme Court. I have read it numerous times. It did not "allow[] the Betamax to be sold", because it had already been on the market for some time. The case rejected a claim for damages by various content producers and held that time-shifting for personal use was not an infringement -- and that is all it did.

Now, one can certainly construct an argument that "the genie was out of the bottle", and copying for personal use is now legal. But to my knowledge no court has so held and no statute so provides. In the absence of such authority, no responsible attorney would tell a client that such practices are legal, and no one would walk into a court and blithely assert that the legality is well-established. That only happens on the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
It could be argued that DVD, and all digital video formats are in fact computer software.
Yes, that could be argued, but not under federal copyright law, because the Copyright Act provides separate definitions for "computer programs" and "audiovisual works", and only the former carry the right of backup for archival purposes (that's "archival", not "personal use"). Audiovisual works, as defined in section 101, are:

Quote:
works that consist of a series of related images which are intrinsically intended to be shown by the use of machines, or devices such as projectors, viewers, or electronic equipment, together with accompanying sounds, if any, regardless of the nature of the material objects, such as films or tapes, in which the works are embodied. (Emphasis added).
That covers DVDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Of course laws are written in such a way that they can be interpreted in a variety of ways.
The best-written laws are those with the least ambiguity, but obviously nothing is perfect. When interpretation is required, training and experience make a difference.

You're a professional cameraman, and I wouldn't know how to thread a Panamax. What do you think would happen if you set me down in a room full of camera equipment, lenses and film and left me on my own to shoot a movie? Probably a lot of broken equipment and unuseable footage.

I see the equivalent whenever people on the internet start holding forth about copyright law.
post #12 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Very true. I took copyright law in law school as well, and that was @ the time that companies like ClearPlay and CleanFlicks were trying to hide behind the fair use doctrine to justify making "family friendly" versions of films for general consumption. Again, a spurious situation where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
post #13 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
The two situations aren't remotely analagous. Laserdisc was an entrenched format that had existed from the early days of home video. By the time DVD came along in 1997 there were thousands of laserdisc titles, most of them released under licenses that were not transferable to DVD. The majority of films once released on VHS and/or laserdisc that are not available on DVD are either extremely obscure (viable on LD because it was already such a niche market) or tied up in rights issues.

HD-DVD was around for a comparitive eyeblink, and there are no legal barriers to releasing titles once issued on HD-DVD as Blu Ray discs now. If anything it is a matter of prioritizing releases and getting the most sales bang for the buck. Most DVDs of all formats get the majority of their sales when the films are new to video. So issuing a BD of a film released "new" on DVD and HD-DVD two years ago today doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense from a marketing stand-point. Better to wait for the 10th anniversary, or the sequel, or for one of the folks involved in the film to win an Oscar or be connected with a blockbuster so there is something to advertise and to goose the sales of an "old" title.

Maybe so, but the end result is still the same. You either enjoy what you can get on a dead format now, or be prepared to wait a long while for the movies you want to see on the new ones. I'm not getting any younger!
post #14 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
That covers DVDs.
Maybe, maybe not. If I were to try to create a backup copy of a DVD I own, it's not the work that it's embodying that I would be copying, but literally the series of bits on the disc. That, to me, is a lot closer to software than it is to "a series of related images".
post #15 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATimson
Maybe, maybe not. If I were to try to create a backup copy of a DVD I own, it's not the work that it's embodying that I would be copying, but literally the series of bits on the disc. That, to me, is a lot closer to software than it is to "a series of related images".
When you acquired the DVD, did you acquire it to have a series of bits or to view a series of related images and listen to accompanying sound?

And I can't wait to hear you explain to a judge how you're not copying "the work" embodied in the bits, but just the bits themselves. I might even waive my fee in exchange for the entertainment value.
post #16 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
When you acquired the DVD, did you acquire it to have a series of bits or to view a series of related images and listen to accompanying sound?
I acquired it to have a series of bits that can be interpreted by a computer of some sort (which would include a DVD player) to create a series of related images and accompanying sound. In other words, I bought a computer program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
And I can't wait to hear you explain to a judge how you're not copying "the work" embodied in the bits, but just the bits themselves. I might even waive my fee just for the entertainment value.
I didn't say that I'm not copying the work; rather, copying the work embodied is a byproduct. The purpose of copying isn't to create a new instance of the work, it's an archival copy to insure that I have continued access to the program on the disc I purchased.

But then, unlike you, I'm not a lawyer, so my research into this has been purely from a layman's POV.
post #17 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATimson
it's an archival copy to insure that I have continued access to the program on the disc I purchased.
Which you can't do unless you defeat the copy protection placed on there by the content providers to prevent exactly that. Providers of "computer software" don't include such protections, because they intend their product to be archived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATimson
In other words, I bought a computer program.
Just because something arrives in digital format doesn't make it a "computer program" for purposes of copyright law. These terms have technical meanings, and with all due respect, the layman's POV is of little relevance.
post #18 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

I think the simplest way to end this once and for all is to return to the original poster's question and answer it in accordance with the HTF rules: while it may be possible to take an HD DVD, transfer it to a computer and subsequently reauthor it for BD, it is against the forum rules for any of us to tell you how. In the words of the preacher in Blazing Saddles, "Son, you're on your own."
post #19 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Just because something arrives in digital format doesn't make it a "computer program" for purposes of copyright law. These terms have technical meanings, and with all due respect, the layman's POV is of little relevance.
Then they need better, exclusive definitions, ones that the layman who is going to be the person who needs to be able to follow the law can understand.
post #20 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATimson
Then they need better, exclusive definitions, ones that the layman who is going to be the person who needs to be able to follow the law can understand.
The FBI warnings on DVDs are as clear as anyone could wish. Besides, most people know they're not supposed to make copies. It's a relatively small group on the internet that tortures language and logic to reach a result at odds with the law. Thanks for the demonstration. This is the end of the thread.
post #21 of 21

Re: Taking HD video from HD-DVD and burning it to Blu-Ray, is it possible?

Quote:
I think the simplest way to end this once and for all is to return to the original poster's question and answer it in accordance with the HTF rules: while it may be possible to take an HD DVD, transfer it to a computer and subsequently reauthor it for BD, it is against the forum rules for any of us to tell you how.


I couldn't have said it better myself. As a forum we have taken on the policy that such discussions will not be allowed. This is something that every member that signs up to the forum agrees to abide by.
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