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Receiver with no HDMI

post #1 of 33
2/8/09 at 6:03pm
Thread Starter 
I currently have a 2003 model A/V receiver. The Pioneer VSX-D912 (specs below.)


I am rearranging the room soon to have true Home Theater.
I will upgrade plasma TV from 42” EDTV to 65” HDTV, upgrade DVD to Blu-Ray, upgrade from 2.1 to 5.1 sound & upgrade regular analog to HD digital Cox cable.

I’d prefer to not have to purchase a new A/V receiver. I’ve been reading about HDMI & my question relates to quality of video & audio signal rather than the obvious convenience of a thin cable carrying excellent digital & audio sound rather than 4-5 bulky cables. I currently use component cable for video & standard RCA for audio.
I would continue to use the component for video & change the audio to digital, optical toslink (or Digital Coax if needed).

Does anyone think the quality of my video or audio signal will be less than if I was suing HDMI?

And BTW, what is all this I read about copy protection with HDMI & not with older methods?

I’m planning on getting an HD DVR with A DVD -R. I always time-shift my TV shows with a VCR, never watch anything live. I sure hope I won’t be blocked from recording any digital TV to watch later. I also thought I could burn a DVD for any shows I wanted to archive.

I appreciate any advice,

Steve
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post #2 of 33
2/8/09 at 6:57pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

With an HD DVR you can record shows to watch later but I believe that copy protection laws prevent the burning of any DVDs from HD sources. At least that's the way it works with all my Dish HD DVR boxes (722s and 622s). You can add an external HD for additional archiving but it is tied to the DVRs in your house and can't be used to dump material to DVD.

Incidentally, HDMI is now a mature technology (see the first thread in this section for my latest thoughts on this) and more and more material is better through HDMI. In some cases, that's the only way you can get it (at least certain audio codecs) from some sources. I've not come across any copy protection issues with HDMI (not to say that something couldn't surface at some point in time) but it's well known that there is an (up to now) unused copy protection "token" built into component video that could be turned on by source providers rendering a lot of older sets incapable of displaying "tokenized" HD content. While most people are of the opinion that this will never happen, I've learned to never say "never."

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post #3 of 33
2/8/09 at 7:21pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
I would continue to use the component for video
If you plan on up-grading the cable box to digital and the dvd to BluRay while keeping the old Pioneer 912 then I would suggest you run them straight to the display via hdmi. It would mean switching inputs on the tv (Harmony remote?) but you would get the best possible video signal transfer. You could use component into and out of the receiver but I feel going to the display would be a bit better. Good quality HDMI cables can be had for $10-20 at Monoprice.com and a little more at BlueJeanscables.com. I have two avr's without hdmi and I run the satllite and dvd straight to the displays.
Quote:
change the audio to digital, optical toslink (or Digital Coax if needed).
I prefer coax to optical. Same audio quality with a much more secure connection.
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post #4 of 33
2/8/09 at 7:44pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

I think the best video you can get from component connections is 1080i. Not bad, but not the best. Like gene said, go to tv with HDMI for video, if the tv is a 1080p set. If it's not, then use the component connections.

You say you're going to upgrade to blu ray. You don't want the best sound possible from it? Not possible to hear the HD (lossless) audio soundtrack from blu ray movies, using optical or digital coax. You'll just get DD or DTS, and not Dolby TrueHD, or dtsHD Master Audio. If your receiver has 5.1/7.1 analog inputs, you can get a BD player like the Sony BDP-S550 or the Panasonic BD55, that decodes the HD audio internally and sends it out over the 5.1/7.1 analog outputs, and hear the HD audio that way. It sounds very good!
Good luck with whatever you do.
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post #5 of 33
2/9/09 at 2:47am
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Thanks to all who replied!


Robert, From what you say the purpose of having a DVD recorder and a DVD in one component may be wasted. Unless you can burn a DVD of some TV shows & not others that have been recorded on the DVR. I suppose I can record to the DVD direct as it is broadcast? Never recorded on anything but VCR tapes so not sure how/what I’d do but, options would be nice. I suppose if I had an A/V Receiver with HDMI, I’d probably use that unless I head a great reason to not use it. But, I do not.

Gene, you say I connect my Cox HD digital Receiver direct to my HDTV & do the same with my BR player bypassing the A/V/ video receiver. And use HDMI for this. Then I assume I run an output from my TV to the Receiver since the receiver has to power the speakers. (The main reason for having an A/V Receiver at all is for the sound, right?

I hadn’t realized there were different ways to set this up given the same components.

I will have :

Panasonic TH 65PZ850U 65” HDTV Plasma
Panasonic DMP BD35K Blu-Ray
Pioneer VSX-D912 A/V Receiver
Old Teac Cassette deck with DbX & Dolby NR
Old Sony VCR
Pioneer 6 CD changer

Whatever Cox HD digital Cable box I am forced to rent (Don’t think I can buy my own or chose)

Have yet to shop/learn but will get a DVR/DVD recorder so I don’t have to rent a used one from Cox.

So, I’ll have 7 components each with a remote control & will probably soon shop/research a good universal remote.

So, 75 Ohm Coax cable comes out of wall & I split it. One half to VCR & Then connect VCR to TV using both 75 Ohm Coax and composite & RCA Audio.

Other ½ Coax from split to rented Cox HD digital Cable box. Then connect Cable Box to A/V receiver (with what?)

CD, Cassette connect to A/V receiver much as they are now by analog RCA plugs.

I’ll need to refer to diagrams & make sure I have the correct cables.

Ed, Are you sure that I will be stuck with 1080i & cannot get 1080p unless I use HDMI? That would be enough for me to buy a new receiver. Hopefully the Panasonic DMP BD35K Blu-Ray player is able to decode the HD audio into analog outputs.
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post #6 of 33
2/9/09 at 2:52am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

I'm planning on connecting a Dish DVR to my new Sharp Aquos LC-C5255U. It has a digital out connection for audio which is optical. I hope to run my DD AVR off of this output jack. My avr has no HDMI connectors. Can anyone give me an idea what I might expect trying to operate this way? Will there be a problem getting DD audio to my avr? The DVR also has a digital output. Will it provide sound to my avr while I'm connected to the monitor via HDMI? My avr has component connections but I don't want the limitations on video quality that entails.
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post #7 of 33
2/9/09 at 4:54am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Ed, Are you sure that I will be stuck with 1080i & cannot get 1080p unless I use HDMI? That would be enough for me to buy a new receiver. Hopefully the Panasonic DMP BD35K Blu-Ray player is able to decode the HD audio into analog outputs.
I had read quite a few times, that 1080p wasn't possible over component cables. But, I went to Wikipedia to double check. They linked to a site that said "There is no official standard for delivering 1080p over analog, even though it can be done. The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) may change that."
So, I guess it's going to depend on your source, and if it allows 1080p over a component connection. I've also heard that BD players don't do 1080p over component, because of copyrights. Upconverting dvd players only do it over HDMI. You may or may not be able to. Contact the maker of whichever BD player you want to buy, and ask them if it does 1080p over component.

I know you can get the HD audio over analog connections, but audio and video are two entirely different things. Video takes more bandwidth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Then I assume I run an output from my TV to the Receiver since the receiver has to power the speakers. (The main reason for having an A/V Receiver at all is for the sound, right?
You'd run the audio (optical/digital coax) from the cable box to the receiver. Not from the tv to the receiver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
I suppose I can record to the DVD direct as it is broadcast?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you're trying to record. I've seen people complain on forums, that they can't record shows or movies, to their dvd recorders. If HD programming allows recording at all (again, copyright reasons) to dvd, it will be downconverted to SD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
So, I’ll have 7 components each with a remote control & will probably soon shop/research a good universal remote.
Look at the Harmony remotes. They're one of the best out there. Just make sure to get one that takes the place of 7 or more components. Amazon.com usually has good prices on them.
Good luck!
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post #8 of 33
2/9/09 at 9:47am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Two points:

99.9% of the time, the digital audio output on a TV is only for the internal tuner to supply DD 5.1 to an external receiver. It will not pass anything but PCM 2.0 stereo from an HDMI in, if it passes anything at all. When dealing with a receiver that has no HDMI, you must go from the component (BD, DVD, cable box) directly to the receiver using coax/optical.

Harmony remotes are the best remotes made. Period. Buy any one that you can afford, you will never regret it. Best of all, any tech-illiterate family members will like it even more than you do.
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post #9 of 33
2/9/09 at 1:02pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Thanks for the help Jeff. Do you know if a Dish DVR (or other components) will output digital audio in addition to HDMI? I know the Dish DVR has a optical out connection and my receiver will accept optical in connections. I'm just hoping not to have to buy a new avr. I just bought one a couple of years ago when I didn't expect to be upgrading to HD for quite a while.
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post #10 of 33
2/9/09 at 1:08pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ghidora
Thanks for the help Jeff. Do you know if a Dish DVR (or other components) will output digital audio in addition to HDMI? I know the Dish DVR has a optical out connection and my receiver will accept optical in connections. I'm just hoping not to have to buy a new avr. I just bought one a couple of years ago when I didn't expect to be upgrading to HD for quite a while.

Optical out is digital audio. The other form of digital audio is Coax.
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post #11 of 33
2/9/09 at 7:30pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Optical out is digital audio. The other form of digital audio is Coax.

I know that. I have both optical and coaxial inputs on my avr. The question is will the sound be output through my optical connection while HDMI is operating. I just wanted to make sure that the digital audio out will work while my HDMI is carrying my video signal. I thought it might be possible that the optical could be disabled if I was using HDMI.
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post #12 of 33
2/9/09 at 8:04pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

I've just been through a similar upgrade: new TV and 2001-era Receiver.

With a non-HDMI receiver, you want to send all digital audio directly from the source to the receiver. For example, I have a Tivo HD connected by HDMI to the TV and by optical audio to the receiver.

My Xbox 360 doesn't allow HDMI and optical audio, so it's connected by component video for 1080i via the receiver.

With an old receiver and a new TV, it took a while to converge on a workable set of connections. But it lets me hold off on a new receiver for a while longer.

And I have and strongly recommend the Harmony One remote.
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post #13 of 33
2/9/09 at 9:40pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

It doesn't really matter that you don't have HDMI on your receiver. You can always run HDMI between source and display (and get 1080p), while running separate optical connection, or coax digital, or multi-ch analog between source & receiver for the sound. No real need to upgrade the receiver if it otherwise has enough inputs.

If you get a TivoHD you can add gobs of storage and also transfer most shows to a networked PC if you want archival. I wouldn't bother with DVD-R, personally. The quality sucks compared to just storing the original HD, and IMO in most cases if a show is really worth having on disc it's worth it to just buy the DVD and have all the commercials & station bugs removed.
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post #14 of 33
2/9/09 at 10:27pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

I think you're mistaking a DVR with a DVD-R Stephen. A DVR is what a Tivo is only the one I'm getting comes from Dish satellite service. It's cheaper and better than a Tivo. You can also add additional hard drives for extra storage and the record schedule works with the Dish channel guide which is something Tivo can't do AFAIK. For example a my current Dish DVR records two programs at once and it will record 2 hours of the channel you are currently watching. I believe Tivo only records 30 minutes unless things have changed. Plus the cost of Tivo is much higher than the $5 a month I pay for a dual receiver/recorder with Dish. In fact the new Dish DVR's are capable of recording 3 shows at once while you're watching a 4th show that you already have recorded.

I haven't watched a tv show straight through in years it seems. No matter what it on I'll end up pausing it and coming back later. As long as it's within 2 hours I can pick up right where I left off. You can't do that with Tivo AFAIK.
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post #15 of 33
2/10/09 at 3:26am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
I think you're mistaking a DVR with a DVD-R Stephen.

I believe Stephen was replying to Steve, who started this thread. (Remember him?) He mentioned getting a DVD-R. And Stephen knows quite well what a TiVO is, thank you.

Quote:
I haven't watched a tv show straight through in years it seems. No matter what it on I'll end up pausing it and coming back later. As long as it's within 2 hours I can pick up right where I left off. You can't do that with Tivo AFAIK.

Thanks for my laugh of the morning. First you assert that the Dish DVR is better than a TiVO (who told you that, the Dish salesman?), then you demonstrate that you don't know anything about TiVO. (Hint: Yes, you can pause live TV with one.)

The fact is that TiVO isn't an option for satellite users, it is only available for cable. But everyone I know who uses a satellite or cable DVR and who has also used a TiVO would tell you that TiVO is, hands down, the best DVR on the market. It has the best and simplest interface there is. My 79 year old mom refuses to give up the ancient DirecTiVO in her bedroom and hates the "upgraded" DirecTV DVR she has in her sitting room. (So do I.) My Comcast DVR is a piece of junk compared to my old TiVOs, but they weren't HD and I can't afford the new hardware, so I compromise.

Unless the Dish DVR has been vastly improved since I last saw one, you're going to get a workmanlike DVR with decent functionality, but without the refinement of a TiVO.

Regards,

Joe
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post #16 of 33
2/10/09 at 5:36am
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Much to consider. I do not want to have 1080i since my new TV will be a 65” 1080p. I also want no up-conversion problems as I have several hundred anamorphic DVDs. I will Check out Harmony remotes.

(BTW, I have never had any type of cable box b4). So, will I get 1080p excellent video & at least very good digital audio if I keep my non-HDMI AVR and connect as follows.

BR to TV with HDMI AND BR to AVR with optical or coax audio.

Cox Cable box to TV with HDMI AND Cable box to AVR with optical or coax audio.


Cox Cable box to AVR with optical or coax audio?

How do I connect the DVR? Same way with HDMI to Cox Cable Box & digital audio cable to AVR?


Stephen Tu, good point, I had not thought that IF I was able to burn a DVD from my DVR HD, it would need to be down converted. Also, I’d need to take the time to eliminate the commercials which is a hassle --if even possible. So, maybe I will just buy a DVR. I need to Check with Cox to see the difference between one I purchase vs. The one they rent you.

Steve
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post #17 of 33
2/10/09 at 3:07pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
(BTW, I have never had any type of cable box b4). So, will I get 1080p excellent video & at least very good digital audio if I keep my non-HDMI AVR and connect as follows.

BR to TV with HDMI AND BR to AVR with optical or coax audio.

Cox Cable box to TV with HDMI AND Cable box to AVR with optical or coax audio.

You'll get true 1080p from Blu-ray. Cable you aren't going to get 1080p as stations only broadcast 720p or 1080i or SD. Your TV will convert those to 1080p internally.

Quote:
How do I connect the DVR? Same way with HDMI to Cox Cable Box & digital audio cable to AVR?
You get DVR *instead* of a cable box. The DVR is integrated with the cable box. No need for both. HDMI -> TV, digital audio to AVR.

Quote:
I need to Check with Cox to see the difference between one I purchase vs. The one they rent you.

For cable, the only one you can purchase is from Tivo; you can't buy one from the cable company. It'll cost ~$199 (refurbished) + $399 lifetime sub, a bit more for new one, and possibly a couple bucks a month for Cablecard rental. Cable rental rates vary and increase over time, in my area it's up to $16/month. So it takes a bit over 3 years to reach the breakeven point. Although in theory it's less than that since even if you use it less than that amount of time, if you own it you can sell it and get a lot of the subscription value back, while rentals have to be returned. I think buying is much better if you value ability to add storage, much better software, and will make use of the network features for stuff like Netflix downloads and video/photo/MP3 transfers to/from a PC.
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post #18 of 33
2/10/09 at 3:09pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

First I'd like to apologize to Stephen for mistaking what his post was about. Sorry Stephen.

Quote:
Thanks for my laugh of the morning. First you assert that the Dish DVR is better than a TiVO (who told you that, the Dish salesman?), then you demonstrate that you don't know anything about TiVO. (Hint: Yes, you can pause live TV with one.)

I believe what I said was you couldn't pause Tivo for 2 hours. You know it's a symptom of paranoia to believe yourself to be far superior in intelligence to others. What kind of moron doesn't know you can pause Tivo? But the real question is what kind of person thinks someone else is that big of a moron?

You insinuate that I took the word of a salesman then you insinuate I'm so stupid that I don't know you can pause Tivo. The truth is you mis-read my post. What I said was you can't pause Tivo and come back 2 hours later and pick up where you left off. Doesn't that make you the one who made the mental error?

And if you think Tivo is better than a Dish DVR you just aren't paying attention. First let's start with the price. It's far more expensive for Tivo and you get fewer options. That should be enough but there's more. Tivo (last I heard anyway) is limited to half an hour of recorded programing unless you tell it to record more. Dish's DVR will record for two hours instead of just 30 minutes. Then there's the fact that Dish's DVR is tied in to their program guide allowing you to search for programs and set a timer to record them all at once instead of trying to get two different devices to work together.

I could go on but these proofs should be sufficient. Yes I failed to notice that Stephen was responding to the OP. That's likely because the thread had been hijacked and other questions were being discussed. I made a mistake there. I'm not perfect. But neither are you. You made a glaring mistake and you were insulting about pointing out the mistake I made. That's far worse than a mere mistake IMO. Being rude is never a good thing but so many people get hung up on trying to be Mr. I'm Smarter Than You and they think they can put down others because of it. Well this isn't an episode of Sienfeld. You aren't on any sitcom where the star gets to insult others for fun. This is real life and you should learn to be polite.
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post #19 of 33
2/10/09 at 3:30pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Dish vs. Tivo. It's kind of unfair to directly compare since one is satellite only while the other is cable only. So ton of other factors to consider.

Pausing for 2 hours as the superiority argument is also rather silly. The live TV buffer length is just a design decision. So what if you can pause the live buffer for 2 hrs v. 30 min? If I wanted to watch the show later, why wouldn't I just hit "record" instead of "pause". Then it wouldn't matter if the show was longer than 2 hrs, or if I happened to go out for 4 hrs instead of 2, I'd have the show when I get back. And it'd warn me if I already had recordings set that would conflict in that time. Does it make more sense to record randomly the last channel tuned to for 2 hrs, or go out and record "suggestions" via some algorithm if the recorder isn't in use?

TivoHD has integrated guide also, and is a single device, there's no "trying to get two different devices" working together. It's not like we are talking about equipment from 9 years ago, when hooking standalone Tivo to standalone sat receivers. Now it's integrated cable DVR vs. integrated satellite DVR. Even back then on the separate devices all you had to do was search on the Tivo and set a timer to record, it controlled the satellite receiver automatically via IR/serial and there really wasn't any hassle. The advantage of the integrated device wasn't really ease of use, it was AV quality omitting reencoding, and making dual tuner easier.

Tivo's search is fairly powerful these days, with boolean operators, required/optional/forbidden keywords, I doubt Dish has fully caught up on that front yet, although it has in others I'll grant.
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post #20 of 33
2/10/09 at 4:47pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Joseph,

If you haven't seen the Dish Vip series of HD DVRs (the ViP622 and the Vip722) then you are not really making a fair comparison between Tivo and Dish HD DVRs. I use Dish HD DVRs and my son has a cable-based Tivo. They both offer full functionality but I give the overall nod in flexibility to the Dish units (and not just because I own those). The 722 is the finest unit that I've owned and I'm looking forward to the new Dish Vip 922 when it comes out in a month or two with Slingbox incorporated into it (Echostar purchased slingbox). There's a reason that the 722 has been called the best HD DVR by numerous agencies.

Speaking of which - several years ago Tivo sued Dish (successfully) regarding patent infringement. They wouldn't have wasted their time if the suit was frivolous and the fact that TiVo won shows that there was some merit there. To me that says more than any pissing match. Tivo certainly must think that Dish DVRs are similar enough to TiVos to make a valid case. However I'm not concerned about my 622s and 722s going dark anytime soon. The appeals will take a decade or more and by that time most of us will have DVRs incorporated into our media servers for whole house distribution and programming. Be on the look out for Windows 7. One of the partners for the new OS is Echostar and it will support all the functions (and then some) of current HD DVRs on a much larger and flexible scale within the framework of a wired and wireless media server in a single location. The only limitation on the number of shows you can simultaneously record will depend on the number of slots you devote to "tuner" cards and the size of your storage modules.

And Charley Ergen (CEO of Echostar) is always looking for ways to become more of a conglomerate. His purchase of Slingbox was done with that in mind and some people have offered the opinion that if Tivo prevails in their appeals of the copyright lawsuit Charley will just buy TiVo which could use the cash influx. Although that might be a frivolous opinion, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Look what he's doing in an attempt to acquire Sirius/XM (although his motives aren't completely clear yet on that score.)

We now return you to your regular programming in this thread....

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post #21 of 33
2/13/09 at 4:59am
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Thank you Stephen Tu,

I had no idea that with a DVR you do not also need an HD cable digital receiver rented from Cox! That reduced my planned # of needed components. I recall seeing DVRs for sale by a few different companies over a year ago some with DVD R capability. I assumed it was similar to Broadband Internet where at first Cox required you to rent or buy THEIR Cable modem & eventually you could opt to buy one of several brands from many retailers. The rent vs. buy decision had to do with time till break even as you pointed out.

I’m going to call Cox to see what my options are.

I’m going to rethink keeping my existing AVR. I’m going to attempt to calculate cable costs as well. If keeping the non-HDMI AVR requires an HDMI cable from source to TV plus a digital audio cable from source to AVR while an HDMI receiver just requires one HDMI cable (from source to AVR?) I need to figure the cost of all those extra digital audio cables against the price of a new AVR plus the capacity to enjoy 1080p and lossless digital audio.

I need to read reviews to find out why a Pioneer VSX 818 VK or VSX 918 VK cost $275 & $350 at Best Buy while Denon with “similar” specs cost MUCH more.

Steve
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post #22 of 33
2/14/09 at 10:31am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
I recall seeing DVRs for sale by a few different companies over a year ago some with DVD R capability.
None of these record in HD. HD-DVRs are hard disk only.

Quote:
I’m going to rethink keeping my existing AVR. I’m going to attempt to calculate cable costs as well. If keeping the non-HDMI AVR requires an HDMI cable from source to TV plus a digital audio cable from source to AVR while an HDMI receiver just requires one HDMI cable (from source to AVR?) I need to figure the cost of all those extra digital audio cables against the price of a new AVR plus the capacity to enjoy 1080p and lossless digital audio.

Given that a Toslink optical cable can be bought for $2 at Monoprice, the extra cable costs definitely aren't going to justify a new AVR .
Note also that you will get 1080p with the sources going directly to the TV, don't need new AVR for that, and that you can get the lossless audio via the multi-ch analog connection. New HDMI AVR doesn't really get you much besides convenience of a few less cables, and it allows you to get Blu-ray player without analog multi-ch output which can save $100 or so. But sticking with the old receiver is definitely going to be cheaper.

Quote:
I need to read reviews to find out why a Pioneer VSX 818 VK or VSX 918 VK cost $275 & $350 at Best Buy while Denon with “similar” specs cost MUCH more.
Definitely don't get the 818 which is a HDMI "pass-through" receiver and doesn't handle audio over HDMI. I think you'll get more for the money with Onkyo rather than Pioneer. But I wouldn't get a new receiver in your position.
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post #23 of 33
2/15/09 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Thanks Stephen,

I hadn’t priced Optical Audio cable & never used it b4. I happened to glance at Monster Cable HDMI & another brand at Best Buy & even the other brand was very expensive. (I never bought nor will Monster brand anything which I think is overpriced-overkill) So, I thought I better Check prices for Optical since it it was @% or more per cable It may add up to a significant amount.

I just verified Monoprice & I can get 6’ or 12’ Toslink optical for $4.76 & $6 respectively, very reasonable. HDMI 24AWG male to male 1.3s certified is 6’ $9.98 & 10’ 21.17 with slight discounts for 2 or more.

Yesterday , I did a major rearrangement of the room to prepare for HT upgrade & today will move existing components, TV into new spot. I will order my new large TV stand & Then I will have a much better idea of cable lengths I require. I will need enough slack to pull each item FW & turn sideways to get to the back. The back of the new TV stand will have holes for cables. I’d hate to get a 6’ cable & discover I really need 7’.
I am going to start with my old AVR non - HDMI. I will be using two HDMi cables to go from BR to TV & from DVR (TIVO?) to TV & Then digital audio x 2 from BR & DVR to AVR. If I later decide to upgrade AVR to a modern one with HDMI, I think will be able to use those same two HDMI cables from BR & DVR to AVR & probably need to buy a 3rd HDMI out from AVR to TV. Then I will not use the two digital audio cables at all. So, no big loss.

I did not realize that using digital audio cable I will be able to get the lossless audio! I’ve been reading about DTS HD Master Audio & Dolby True HD & thought I needed HDMI cable to experience those.

I recall learning decades ago re Stereo systems that a system was only as good as its weakest link. So, if someone bought great speakers but a cheap tape deck or turntable/stylus or used 100 feet of 22 AWG speaker wire, or a cheap receiver with high THD --the sound suffered.

I am now convinced that My video will be superb with a 1080p new TV & a direct HDMI connection fro BR & DVR to Tv so it is the Audio that was the question.

I will begin with my old AVR but, had been looking at a “better” Pioneer VSX 1018AH-K since it mentioned DTS HD Master Audio & Dolby True HD. It does state THD: (1kHz w/0.05% THD @ 8 ohm)
That seems like a “cheat” because it doesn’t list THD in proper format as with the Elite Pioneer models for example:

THD: (20Hz - 20kHz, .05% THD @ 8 ohms, All Channels Driven)

Makes me wonder what the THD is at all the frequencies other than 1KHz and WITH ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN. Is it 3%?

I do think I would hear a difference between 3% THD & 0.5 or 0.8 especially at loud volumes.

I will also Check out Onkyo. How does one tell if an AVR is HDMI pass-though?

BTW, on Monoprice the digital audio coax cables look the same as the typical 75 Ohm cable TV cables that you use to connect a VCR. If that is true & I’ve read no quality difference between Toslink optical & coax digital audio--I have several laying around the house. Maybe I misunderstood & those are only for Sub-Woofer connections.

Steve
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post #24 of 33
2/15/09 at 7:38pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
I did not realize that using digital audio cable I will be able to get the lossless audio! I’ve been reading about DTS HD Master Audio & Dolby True HD & thought I needed HDMI cable to experience those.
You can't get TrueHD or DTS MA thru a digital connection like optical or coaxial, you need the proper hdmi or multi channel analog cables and a BluRay player that internally decodes the new formats. The Panasonic 35 does decode the new formats and can send them out as multi channel LPCM but it doesn't have 7.1 channel analog outs, only 2.o so you can't use the 912 for the new formats. Sorry.
Quote:
I will also Check out Onkyo. How does one tell if an AVR is HDMI pass-though?
This can be tricky to figure out. Since it looks like the 35 decodes internally, you really only need a receiver that accepts mc lpcm via hdmi, not a full blown 1.3a receiver. Look for "accepts MC LPCM via HDMI" in the features discription or specifications section of the owners manuals or on their web sites. The Marantz 5002 is a perfect example of this.
Quote:
I will begin with my old AVR but, had been looking at a “better” Pioneer VSX 1018AH-K since it mentioned DTS HD Master Audio & Dolby True HD. It does state THD: (1kHz w/0.05% THD @ 8 ohm)
That seems like a “cheat” because it doesn’t list THD in proper format as with the Elite Pioneer models for example:
In the owners manual it's listed as 110 wpc 20-20k @ 8 ohms with .o9% thd.

Quote:
BTW, on Monoprice the digital audio coax cables look the same as the typical 75 Ohm cable TV cables that you use to connect a VCR.
The yellow video cables, purple subwoofer cables and orange digital coaxial audio cables are all the same specs. They can be inter-changeable but use decent quality ones. That weakest link thing again. BTW, I prefer coax over optical. Much more secure connection.
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post #25 of 33
2/15/09 at 11:12pm

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
The Panasonic 35 does decode the new formats and can send them out as multi channel LPCM but it doesn't have 7.1 channel analog outs, only 2.o so you can't use the 912 for the new formats. Sorry.

I don't think he bought the Blu-ray player yet. If he wanted to keep the 912 surely instead of the Panasonic 35 he should buy the Panasonic 55 instead (or the upcoming 80, or a Sony 550), and uses the multi-ch analog outputs (set of 6 RCA cables) rather than optical. You *can* use the 912 for the new formats, just need a player with multi-ch analog outs, ruling out the cheapest models & the Sony PS3. But the cost differential is only ~$100 rather than $300++ for a new receiver.

Yes digital coax cables are the same as simple yellow composite video cables (RCA jack ends), and can/should be used if the source component provides that output (cheaper than Toslink & doesn't fall out as easily). I disagree with gene that you need "decent quality" ones. Dirt cheap works fine! The whole point of digital transmission is that signal degradation doesn't really matter (until it reaches catastrophic levels) since basically all you need is the 1 or 0 to come out on the other end still recognizable as a 1 or 0. It either works perfectly, or you get no sound or sound dropping out if the cable is defective. There is no middle ground for the quality of the cable to make a difference. The "weakest link" thing is something boutique cable makers like to trumpet to bilk customers with no knowledge of electrical engineering principles. It's true that a weak link in a chain of components can compromise the sound, but it's not going to be the digital cable!
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post #26 of 33
2/16/09 at 3:42am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
I don't think he bought the Blu-ray player yet. If he wanted to keep the 912 surely instead of the Panasonic 35 he should buy the Panasonic 55 instead (or the upcoming 80, or a Sony 550), and uses the multi-ch analog outputs (set of 6 RCA cables) rather than optical. You *can* use the 912 for the new formats, just need a player with multi-ch analog outs, ruling out the cheapest models & the Sony PS3. But the cost differential is only ~$100 rather than $300++ for a new receiver.
Only thing is when using the analog in's you lose all processing like bass and treble controls and bass mngnt. The rceiver will act as a volume controller only. And as I mentioned in another thread, the 55 is getting scarce and expensive. Better plan on the Sony 550 or Samsung 2500/2550 etc.
Quote:
I disagree with gene that you need "decent quality" ones. Dirt cheap works fine!
Been thru this a million times. Monoprice (and some others (?)) have much better cables, also dirt cheap. The one's he has laying around probably came with his old vcr's etc. I wouldn't use those under any circumstances, even for a digital signal. In short, even if the performance may be the same, there's a limit to how cheap I'll go. Our equipment deserves better. And a digital connection should also be used along with the analog one. I wouldn't get boutique cables either .
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post #27 of 33
2/16/09 at 4:47pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Hi guys,

Right, When I went to purchase the BD35 -out of stock at Best Buy & Sears & spent hours searching, calling. I wanted it since it was new at $299.99 & won the award. I knew the 55 was the same with an extra feature (I forget) that wasn’t needed) & cost over $100 more. Both are D/C anyway. I’m going to hook up my old DVD till I decide which BR to get or find a BD35. I think we are over a month away from Panasonic’s new models --They failed to respond to an email asking about this subject. I won’t hold my breath that the replacement for the 35 will retail for $300 & be as good.

I’m getting ready to order from monoprice. Using 16AWG for surround & will use 12AWG for L+R+CC. Because I had to re-task some in the wall 16AWG for one of the surrounds & wanted the other to “match.” If I could, I’d use 12AWG for all. Still not convinced I can hear the diff but, cheap enough.
Finally got rooms rearranged & almost done placing existing equipment from very unusual, difficult to access old locations & placed in new standard located against a wall where I can access everything like most people ! (yes, my equipment was in two different locations connected by wiring I ran in 1991 when building house.) Much work, way more time than I had planned. Just need to fish one stubborn 16AWG speaker wire out of a wall through a hole so I can do the final butt splice for the last surround.
New Mirage s/b available for p.u. Thursday & as soon as they are actually in my hands will order the (pre-selected) new huge TV stand. By Next weekend should have the actual set up so I can actually measure the needed cable lengths. I will order 50’ 12 AWG sp wire tonight since I know I need 35-40’ & that will cover it. I’m tempted to go for HDMI at 6’ but may order 10 or 12’ just in case. Obviously, it would be simpler if all equipment was in place & I cold measure exact requirements.

I do have old 1980s style RCA cables which have the same connector as Digital Audio but I don’t know if they are 75 ohm. I may try to experiment later to see if I can get decent sound. But, probably will wait till I have a BR player in my hands.

This is way more complicated than I had thought. If I KNEW I could get a great HDMI AVR for $300 I’d probably do it but, I’m thinking it would be more like $550-850.

Anyway, till I get the BR (Or the HD Cox cable?) I won’t hear that DTS HD Master Audio & Dolby True HD anyway. Now, it may be that no TV station broadcast that just as none do 1080p YET. I don’t wish to upgrade again for several years once I finish.

Back to the elusive sp. wire & thanks!

BTW, final step will be new HDTV & Cox HD digital.

Steve
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post #28 of 33
2/17/09 at 7:23am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
I knew the 55 was the same with an extra feature (I forget) that wasn’t needed) & cost over $100 more

That extra feature is the multi-ch analog out, which is exactly what you do need if you want to use the new codecs on your old receiver. You wouldn't need it if you bought a new receiver. You would use 3-4 pairs of the old RCA cables for this, as Gene mentioned bass management would be done in the player. This is an analog connection, you don't need 75 ohm cables for that. For digital connection from other components, cable DVR, using a yellow video cable, 75 ohm is preferred, but in reality over a short distance RCA audio cable will work fine. People have literally used coat hangers for this (an experiment to prove a point) and had it work perfectly.

With the new Panasonic models you'd want to get the 80 model instead of the 60. Or get a Samsung 2550 or Sony 550 if you don't want to wait.
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post #29 of 33
2/17/09 at 10:05am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Using 16AWG for surround & will use 12AWG for L+R+CC.
That will probably work fine, but actually, it's just the opposite of what it should be. Usually, you'd want to use the heavier wire for the longer runs. This is just FYI more than anything.............
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post #30 of 33
2/17/09 at 10:46am

Re: Receiver with no HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
I’m getting ready to order from monoprice. Using 16AWG for surround & will use 12AWG for L+R+CC. Because I had to re-task some in the wall 16AWG for one of the surrounds & wanted the other to “match.” If I could, I’d use 12AWG for all. Still not convinced I can hear the diff but, cheap enough.I do have old 1980s style RCA cables which have the same connector as Digital Audio but I don’t know if they are 75 ohm. I may try to experiment later to see if I can get decent sound. But, probably will wait till I have a BR player in my hands.
You can get the RCA coax, 75 ohm video / digital cable cheaply from the usual suspects. Blue Jeans has 6' for $16. I bought a 6 ft length recently from BJ or Monoprice or RAM.

I do specifically like Monoprices' TOSlink (digital audio) cables. Inexpensive and good construction quality.
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