Caprica - Page 10

Really good episode. The idea of technology evolving to the point where humanity can synthesize the crucial elements of monotheistic theology is an intriguing one. The salvation Clarice offers is a pretty empty one, however; the fleshy person doesn't ascend to the digital heaven, a digital copy of that person does. If they carried out such suicide bombings, the biological originals wouldn't be any more dead for having been digitally reconstructed. It certainly puts a new spin on the resurrection ships in "Battlestar Galactica", which were almost certainly just a highly refined version of the technology that Clarice is proposing.

"If they carried out such suicide bombings, the biological originals wouldn't be any more dead for having been digitally reconstructed ."./..........xxx.."

I think you mean any less dead. Anyway, I think there's merit to the other position. It has to do with what constitutes a person. While in every day living, my body is certainly a big part of what makes me me, I don't know that I believe it''s a major part. I think when you can go from one fully functioning body to another similar one, you become less tied to what you have. For instance, the concept of losing a finger is something I'd desperately want to avoid since once it's gone, it's gone (more or less). But if I knew I had the powers of reptilian like regeneration, my fierce need to protect my limbs wouldn't be quite so fierce. I'd still want to avoid losing it, but not on the same level.

I think a case can be made that what makes me me is my brain, not my body. If I knew that if I died, and the part of me that makes me me (IMO) lived, I'd be more accepting of possible/probable death. I tend to have issues with accepting how a brain can be mimiced, because transferring neural pathways is not enough to mimic a brain, but if we accept the premise that it can be done, that leaves the body. How attached am I to being in my body? Fairly, but not critically. If I could save a parent from death by intruder while knowing that my essense would be resurrected in a fully functioning body, I'd do it. I wouldn't do it to try skydiving without a parachute, or even to go motorcycling without a helmet.

The key is that you want to come back as something that thinks, feels, and acts the same as the person you were. Maybe you want to look the same as before, maye not. You would at first, but you might get over it depending on where you ended. I think when it gets to the point of the resurrection ships on BSG, where they're essential exact replicas, I'd feel pretty much as they did -- go ahead and kill me, I'll come back.

It took me a moment to remember Caprica is happening approximately (50?) years prior to BSG, so the Cylons are already out there and so are the resurrection ships.  It's quite possible I'm off on the BSG and Caprica timelines, though. The details have faded a bit.

Syfy brought it back at the start of the primetime season on one of the most competitive 10 PM slots in recent memory; what'd they expect?

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Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt 

 

Syfy brought it back at the start of the primetime season on one of the most competitive 10 PM slots in recent memory; what'd they expect?

And they announced its return less than a month before the episode aired. I'll freely admit that the show probably isn't all that appealing to people (all the characters are depressed, there's way more talking than explosions, you have to have seen most or all of the episodes to follow the story) but SyFy doesn't seem to be helping things with its time slot and not giving much time to promote its return. I realize that SyFy moving the show to Tuesday night is a vote of confidence but I think they'd be doing better if they just left it on Friday nights when the competition is less intense.

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Originally Posted by Mikah Cerucco 

 

It took me a moment to remember Caprica is happening approximately (50?) years prior to BSG, so the Cylons are already out there and so are the resurrection ships.  It's quite possible I'm off on the BSG and Caprica timelines, though. The details have faded a bit.

The Cylons didn't receive resurrection technology (or at least the ultimate form of it) until the arrival of the Final Five, around 41 years prior to BSG (or 17 years after Caprica's first season), remember. It was what stopped the war, although I absolutely love the idea of the Earth Cylons using Zoe's/Tamara's/Daniel's/Clarice's work to refine what the Colonial Cylons eventually receive, as far as gaining "immortality" through their skinjobs, etc.

Also, the first several thousand or so Centurions are now rolling off the Graystone/Vergis assembly-lines, but they have yet to be deployed in military-type situations, at least so far as the show has established to date.

It's been speculated on other forums that the classic, '70s-era Basestars might be constructed by Graystone Industries for the Centurions' use down the road, as they clearly are provided with lots of heavy weaponry right up front -- it's about the only way they could gain enough of an initial toehold to make their coming revolt successful enough to last for over a decade.

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Originally Posted by joshEH 

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The Cylons didn't receive resurrection technology (or at least the ultimate form of it) until the arrival of the Final Five, around 41 years prior to BSG (or 17 years after Caprica's first season), remember.

Exactly.  The Final Five are currently en route to the colonies, travelling at relativistic speed.  *They* of course possess resurrection technology, and technically their ship is a resurrection ship in itself, but that's really the extent of the existing cylon/cylon tech outside of Caprica (excluding, of course, all the stuff from the last exodus, the temple of the five, and all that good stuff).

I think we're all saying the same thing. I still refer to the Final 5 as Cylons. The whole "Final 5" means "Final 5 Cylon models," so we all still refer to them as Cylons.

The whole STO "civil war" arc is one of the better storylines running through the series at the moment. The real question is, to what extent will Clarice's mopping-up exercises be tolerated by Meg Tilly's inner circle, and how much authority is she really planning on giving her over the Caprican rank-and-file there?

How many loose ends can you really tie off before damaging things too irreparably?

Daniel, similarly, is becoming more and more ruthless every day. The guy is paying off the women his own former board member likes to beat up on. He sees no problems whatsoever with creating a sentient robot race to act as slaves for humanity. He's made an uneasy alliance with the Tauron mafia, which has resulted in at least one person's death, all in an effort to regain control over his company.

Perhaps Zoe did have good reason to despise him, and we just hadn't seen it yet. I think he was already there to some extent, but his win-at-all-costs coldness simply hadn't had the opportunity to assert itself, prior to this juncture.

Vergis had better watch his back.

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Originally Posted by Mikah Cerucco 

I think we're all saying the same thing. I still refer to the Final 5 as Cylons. The whole "Final 5" means "Final 5 Cylon models," so we all still refer to them as Cylons.

Something else to chew on, regarding this subject:

Prior to the revelations made in Season Four, the term "Final Five" was initially used in the context of Baltar's own, information-limited perspective -- i.e., the "final five" (out of the twelve) skinjob Cylon models that he and the Colonials did not know the identities of. And it turns out that the "Final Five" were, in fact, the "First Five," at least in terms of being the predecessors of the eight models that followed them.

More interestingly, however, the term "final five" could more appropriately be used in the context of the Final Five actually being the last five survivors of the nuclear holocaust on Earth -- literally, the "final five" Cylons left from that planet.

I don't know I'm getting ready to drop this, it moves at a snails pace and all the characters are unlikable, Josef Adama is just a Douche.

Paula Malcomson  (Amanda Graystone ) gets around. I didn't know her from Adam when this show started, though I liked her well enough. Then during the break, I happened to do a Deadwood marathon. All while watching that show, she vaguely seemed familiar, but I didn't make any connection. She's a major character on Deadwood, though, so it got to the point where I'd recognize her if I see her anywhere. Then I start watching Sons of Anarchy's new season, and I see she plays a character there too. I end up thinking she's doing a good Irish accent, but now I seen on IMDB she's actually from Belfast, Ireland. Then Caprica starts back up and I realize she's in this too.

It feels like forever since we've seen V-World, and Zoe was walking off with such promise. It is difficult to find anyone to root for. It's very different from BSG in that way. In BSG, it was a dark show, and the characters were definitely flawed, but I would say the majority of the folks we found cause to root for. Even Cylons (Boomer/Athena).

Not even Serge?

But seriously, keep in mind, too, that Caprica is a show about a society that is in decline and slowly coming apart at the seams, and that is something that the STO exploits to the fullest. I think Caprica has generally been excellent, but I certainly can understand why it’s not to the taste of others. As everyone seems to agree, there’s no one character with significant rooting-value.

I’m not sure why there would be such a character in a series about the downfall of civilization – generally, such a story wouldn’t call for the presence of much heroism. And the series has focused a lot more on character than plot, thus far.

If this was an adventure show like BSG, it would need people to root for. I don’t think a straight drama needs them, necessarily, but the lack of them is certainly going to limit the potential viewership. I was surprised Syfy went ahead with the series for that very reason. In tone, it probably has more in common with FX series like Damages than anything else Syfy airs.

I don't know about anybody else here, but I'm actually kinda digging many of the anti-heroes on this show, as well as their reprehensible behavior. Assuming Vergis takes it all away from Graystone, perhaps Graystone and Adama can team up and take on a more unselfish and possibly a more heroic mantle, coming up.

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Originally Posted by Mikah Cerucco 

Paula Malcomson  (Amanda Graystone ) gets around. I didn't know her from Adam when this show started, though I liked her well enough. Then during the break, I happened to do a Deadwood marathon. All while watching that show, she vaguely seemed familiar, but I didn't make any connection. She's a major character on Deadwood, though, so it got to the point where I'd recognize her if I see her anywhere. Then I start watching Sons of Anarchy's new season, and I see she plays a character there too. I end up thinking she's doing a good Irish accent, but now I seen on IMDB she's actually from Belfast, Ireland. Then Caprica starts back up and I realize she's in this too.

Yeah, Trixie was awesome. Being a huge Deadwood fan, I was glad they cast her in this show.

I still hold out the hope that one day Amanda Graystone will treat us to lines like, "Five cubits for a straight frack, seven cubits for an assfrack."

Hmm. I have two responses to that. We'll take them one at a time.

First, I actually haven't looked at the show this way. If I didn't know what happens at the end because of BSG, I would not consider it a story about the decline of a civilization. Instead, I'd consider it a show about the advancement of a civilization. If you care to expand, I'd be curious why you see the story as a story about the decline of a civilization. Offhand, any criteria I can use to make Caprica fit such a definition applies to just about any civilization I can think of.

Second, even if what you suggest is true (and honestly, I haven't toyed around with the idea long enough to agree or disagree at this point), it's quite possible to have someone to root for even when watching an overall decline. I came up with a few examples off the top of my head, but let's go with "300". That society is going to fall, but we still root for them. Their valor. Their courage. Their commitment. Their resolve.

I'm not going to critize Caprica for being what it is, but it's valid to say that when I watch entertainment, I will accept a pretty flawed character as long as the character gives me something to root for (or like). I have no problem rooting for Don Corleone, or even Michael Corleone, and these are bad people. In the case of a show filled with downer characters, then give me some characters to root for. It doesn't matter to me if those characters ultimately don't win out. Is the movie Gladiator, I don't even remember what happens to Maximus as the end. But even if he were to die, it wouldn't change that I've rooted for him the whole film -- and enjoyed doing so. Another example is the most depressing viewing experience I can remember -- Leaving Las Vegas. Through that whole movie, I rooted for Nicholas Cage, even though he tells Elizabeth Shue, and by extension the audience, never ask him to stop drinking -- even as he's killing himself. And it doesn't end well. But you're still pulling for him through the whole movie. It's the decline of an individual (and we join the story in progress with the decline well underway), but we still root for him.

So I think it's important to say that someone to root for doesn't necessarily mean "virtuous". It means that we have to be able to relate to the characters goals, motivations, or actions as "good", even in the face of struggle and failure. Or at least I do. With House, I can look at a character like Cuddy and be completely turned off by how she treated her PI boyfriend, yet overall, she's a good person that I root for.

There's no reason in Caprica we couldn't have a fascinating well-rounded character advising the folks in this story, “Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." This person could be powerful, but on an ultimately futile path. He could be long-time friends with Graystone. Similar, in some ways to Professor X and Magneto. Essentially friends, but in disagreement and going different directions. To me, it would make for such a more interesting show. We'd know this new character would ultimately fail, but we'd root for him to succeed. And I'd have no problem with that.

That should have been Joseph Adama's role, but they've never really figured out what to do with him.

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Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt 

That should have been Joseph Adama's role, but they've never really figured out what to do with him.

I don't think Adama was ever meant to be the protagonist specifically, nor a character we especially "root for."  I think he was always destined to be a someone we specifically root against--this is foreshadowed in how Apollo always "looked up to him," while the Admiral...well....emphatically did not.  I think the audience in BSG was meant to wonder "what does the Admiral have against his own father?  Why is it wrong that Apollo is 'following in his footsteps?'"  Well, now we know: he was a dirty, two-faced gangster.

Of course, it's all a strange debate, anyway, as this is clearly an ensemble cast, and nobody is the true protagonist in the strictest sense.  And while everyone knows protagonist doesn't mean "good guy" at all, I don't think there are any of those in the show, either.

Personally, I find Daniel to be the closest thing to a "root for" character, but not in the obvious way.  He's basically the creator of his own race's near-annihilation, so the show seems to be taking great strides to humanize him, make him flawed and vulnerable, pathetic.  He's very similar to Baltar in that sense.  Gaius' emotional break-down ("You know, I know about farming...") in the finale was heart-wrenching, in my opinion, specifically because of how tortured the character was throughout the series.

Who knows, maybe Joseph will make a similar about-face, and we'll come to see (assuming the cancellation gods turn a blind eye to the ratings) what Apollo admired in him.

We got some huge reveals in this new episode, including one that massively affects the BSG universe:

The "angels" (the same beings as Head Six and Head Baltar) are working behind the scenes of what's taking place involving Zoe-A, the virtual world, and the entire coming Cylon race -- this episode shows that they were directly responsible for the creation of the Avatar program (through the original Zoe Graystone).

In other words, God decided to have the Capricans create artificial life, which led to the First Cylon War, as God had already decided where humans and Cylons would end up over sixty years later (the Final Five's colony). For a being that wanted to "end the cycle of violence," this episode solidifies that God was directly responsible for it, and might even have been actively trying to destroy humanity for millennia.

Perhaps later on the series, we'll see that the avatars try to prevent the war. Leoben stated early on that God was so disappointed in humanity that he gave the Cylons "souls." Caprica, so far, seems to indicate that Leoben was right. Part of me wishes that the divine intervention was less obvious. But, for good or bad, these messengers are indeed part of the series' universe.

Of course, we are also given the new thought that there is a backup of the avatar-maker out there -- it made no sense that it was so easily erased, so this is good, and it will now be in the hands of Clarice coming up.

Which suggests there will be two forces among the AIs: Zoe/Tamara and Clarice's apotheosis-army. Interestingly, we know that the Cylons ultimately end up monotheist, so we don't know who's going to win, as both forces are currently aligned that way.

We don't know for sure the avatar-maker is backed up, though it almost certainly is. I would guess that at the very least another copy of the Zoe Avatar is in the STO symbol pin.

As you said, the huge event in this week's episode was the reveal that one of the angels was guiding Zoe, which imprints divine providence on her creation of the Zoe Avatar. It does not necessarily imprint divine on Clarice's plan for apotheosis, however, since we know Zoe split with Clarice before she died in the train bombing. Whatever reason God (or whatever He likes to be called) intervened with Zoe, it's for what the Zoe and Tamara Avatars are about to embark upon, not what Clarice had planned for them.

Syfy has greenlit a full, feature-length TV movie pilot for BSG: Blood and Chrome -- originally, it was to be a webisode series:

http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/10/22/syfy-adama-blood-and-chrome/

It will likely air on Syfy next year, and a full TV series could receive a pickup order from the network. Details from the article:

• Movie/potential TV series is set in the 10th year of the First Cylon War; Ensign William Adama is in his first year as a "rookie" Viper pilot, and a recent Academy graduate. A potential "love interest" will be introduced, as well as a top-secret mission "[that could] turn the tide of the war."

• The Galactica is the "newest battlestar in the Colonial Fleet," at the time of the show.

• Nico Cortez is at "the top of the list" for portraying Young Husker once again, but still may or may not do it, depending on various factors.

• David Eick, Michael Taylor, David Weddle, and Bradley Thompson are the executive producers on the project.

• Ronald D. Moore will have no real official connection to the show, only being present earlier when the initial pitch was made to the network. He's currently quite busy with The Wild, Wild West and other projects.

• The existence of this show doesn't have any real bearing one way or another on the final fate of Caprica. It is its own "thing."

• Bear McCreary will likely be the composer.

• Shooting begins in Vancouver early 2011, for airing in late 2011 or early 2012.

Weddle and Thompson coming back? Frakking awesome. They wrote some of the best episodes of seasons three and four. The article also mentions that some characters from BSG and Caprica might cross over to the new show, but they plan on using such devices sparingly.

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Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt 

 

We don't know for sure the avatar-maker is backed up, though it almost certainly is. I would guess that at the very least another copy of the Zoe Avatar is in the STO symbol pin.

 

As you said, the huge event in this week's episode was the reveal that one of the angels was guiding Zoe, which imprints divine providence on her creation of the Zoe Avatar. It does not necessarily imprint divine on Clarice's plan for apotheosis, however, since we know Zoe split with Clarice before she died in the train bombing. Whatever reason God (or whatever He likes to be called) intervened with Zoe, it's for what the Zoe and Tamara Avatars are about to embark upon, not what Clarice had planned for them.

That does indeed seem to be the case, since it's clear up to this point that "God" (or, at least, His/Its "messengers") have only directly intervened on the side of Zoe-A and Tamara-A, and not Clarice's. What I'm wanting to see is whether or not the Tamara avatar gets brought into the "vision" fold, and becomes privy to what Zoe-A is glimpsing -- or if she's simply going to have to take what Zoe-A says on (probably very sketchy) faith.

It's obvious as well that Clarice's entire faction is barely holding together at this point, at least on Caprica itself; with so many different internal and external pressures pulling the STO in so many different directions, will she rise to the top of the organization at the end, or will Meg Tilly's Gemonese crew reassert their dominance?

Too, it's clear that there's a major connection between her "apotheosis" program and what the later skinjob Cylons will integrate into their existences -- that aspect of STO doctrine clearly ends up as part of their programming, either leading up to, or after, the first war (and is mentioned several times late in the series, and in The Plan).

Also, the identity of Clarice's holoband contact -- who the hell is it?

While Syfy says Blood & Chrome has no impact on Caprica, I wouldn't be surprised if the network views it as a more marketable successor to Caprica. Personally, I find that era more interesting than what we're getting now. It's also notable that David Eick is spearheading this one without RDM's help. Presumably, Michael Taylor and/or the writing team of David Weddle & Bradley Thompson will be showrunning with Eick heading up the production side. Considering that this would be a war focused series, Weddle & Thompson make sense, since they were the specialists in getting the military details right. And unlike Taylor, who wrote the last two episodes of season 1.0, so far they have had no association with Caprica.

True, I have a feeling this new show will be the exact tonal opposite of Caprica. Caprica was an attempt to continue the series drama and focus on character of BSG, but without the war and action of the previous show. Blood and Chrome will likely be war and action, with drama and character work, but also featuring the plot twists, mysteries, and suspense of its predecessors. In what particular balance, it's too early to say yet.

But yes -- it's clear that Syfy is still interested in BSG as a franchise, as it lends considerable critical prestige to the network, but is also looking at a more "marketable" version of another project set in that universe than Caprica has turned out to be.

Which I find disquieting on one level, feeling that Caprica has much to offer the discerning viewer, but I won't deny that seeing more of the First Cylon War has some serious appeal to it. Yet, at the end of the day, I'm probably more interested in how that war actually started (i.e., Caprica's story) than I am the war itself.

On the other other hand, having Taylor, Weddle, and Thompson steering the ship makes me hugely anticipate this project, as well as the grit and sweat and grounded character drama that they imbued much of BSG with.

And if Syfy were to (hypothetically) pair up Caprica with BSG: Blood and Chrome, it would be an interesting strategy to save the struggling former show. The synergy-strategy, in other words -- each series would "sell" the other.

Not unexpected, but why not just let the remainder of the season play out now? Grrr, Syfy..

I agree Adam. Makes no sense whatsoever to not air until next year.

You're losing that audience, why can't the fans get to see the episodes play out..

Ohhh, they're going to want us back to watch the other new BSG series with the cool lasers and stuff.

F U SyFy execs.

Not that we didn't really see this coming, but still. Thanks a fucking lot, Syfy, for twisting that knife just a little bit more.

Syfy hasn't made a show yet it couldn't kill momentum on by splitting up a single season across a year-and-a-fucking-half. Yes, Caprica was also probably the most expensive show running on Syfy, which meant the ratings requirements were higher, but it was the way they handled everything that's at issue, here. This show had one-million-plus in ratings when the mid-season break happened. They then tried to convince us there was some sort of elaborate "plan" to save Caprica, that only smart TV network executives could understand.

The Digital Bits is already reporting on the Season 1.5 DVD set, to be released on 12/21....before the "final five" (har-de-har) air in 2011:

And a very special "fuck you" goes out to Syfy VP Mark Stern, who basically cockteased us all summer long with assurances that the show's chances of getting picked up again were "strong" -- it's quite possible that this decision was already made months ago, but with this whole smokescreen of false promises and manipulated hopes thrown up in order to goose the Season 1.0 DVD sales.

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Originally Posted by joshEH 

And a very special "fuck you" goes out to Syfy VP Mark Stern, who basically cockteased us all summer long with assurances that the show's chances of getting picked up again were "strong" -- it's quite possible that this decision was already made months ago, but with this whole smokescreen of false promises and manipulated hopes thrown up in order to goose the Season 1.0 DVD sales.

To be fair, the show was averaging well above a 1.0 rating when Stern said that. Yesterday's episode was down to a 0.5 rating (and a staggeringly low 718 thousand viewers). He could hardly have expected that the show's audience would be less than half when it came back.

It'd be interesting to see how much better it would have done outside of the Tuesday night slaughterhouse. Easily the most competitive night of the week this season, in my opinion.

Frak you, SyFy.  And frak your stupid "edgy" frakkin' name.

I did not watch this show past the first episode...but that is beside the point. I never forgave Sci Fi, for canceling Farscape! Now that it is SyFy, who cares what they do.

What a shame.  I believe the show had great potential.  Splitting the season did not help.  Is BSG the only show that survived that, (and wasn't it mainly because of the writers' strike)?

The cast of Caprica could, theoretically, be asked to reunite in a special episode of Blood & Chrome that would be a flashback to the time of Caprica. There could be a resolution to Caprica in this way. Just putting the idea out there.