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Caprica - Page 5

post #121 of 349
According to http://galacticasitrep.blogspot.com/ after Caprica airs its tenth episode, it will go on hiatus until late summer - in typical SciFi/SyFy Galactica fashion.

Also worth reading at that link are comments from a SyFy exec who expresses confidence in the show, despite low ratings. You don't see that much.

Lastly, there is going to be a screening in New York March 17 with Moore, Eick and some of the cast. No word on which episode will be screened, but I presume it will be the half-season finale.
post #122 of 349
Also in that same Syfy VP-interview article, it's confirmed that we'll be seeing Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
at least one Viper (Mk. I?) space battle coming up.
Also, according to TV Guide, the series producers have already contacted Lucy Lawless about reprising her role of D'Anna Biers on Caprica...in some shape or fashion. The original human upon which the Number Threes' design is ultimately based?
post #123 of 349
Thread Starter 
Hmm.  I don't know.  There are some things I really enjoy about this show, but as a whole it move so slowly that I can't really care for any of the characters.  It feels as though the whole plot is molasses.  I'm just waiting for something to make sense or actually happen.
post #124 of 349
In the same boat. 
post #125 of 349
It's a strange show. The only plot line that's going anywhere is the mystery behind the Zoe avatar and the Soldiers for the One. The rest of the show is a soap operatic chronicle of these two families' lives. It keeps my interest, but there's no goal post like there was for BSG.
post #126 of 349
Yesterday's episode was probably my favorite since the two hour pilot. I wonder if the Tamara storyline is going to be like the Helo storyline in BSG, in that it takes a character that was originally intended to be written off and then integrates him/her into the mythology of the show. Sort of a Matrix-y vibe.
post #127 of 349
Yesterday's episode is the first one I'd watch if it didn't have all the BSG goodwill behind it. In other words, it's the first time I've really liked the show on its own merits, as opposed to a "continuation" of BSG.
 
What throws me about this whole VR world is... where exactly is it housed? Is there a big corporate mainframe somewhere and everyone wirelessly jacks into it? And when people jack into it, the rules and environment are provided by the "construct" but the thoughts and actions are provided by the brain of the person jacked in. But if that's the case, there's no ghost image to remain behind in the mainframe once the real person's brain is gone. There were just Avatar's in the VR world, not AI. If the Avatar was AI and off on it's own, there'd be little benefit of a real person jacking in.

Maybe someone who watches the show more closely can explain. Personally, until the most recent episode, I was bordering on dropping the show.
Edited by Mikah Cerucco - 2/27/10 at 4:20pm
post #128 of 349
My understanding is that V-world developed much like the internet, starting with closed commercial services like Compuserve and AOL but evolving into an open, loosely associated network. The holo-band, then, is like like a cable modem. The high-traffic areas are probably maintained by big commercial services like Graystone Industries, but the areas we've seen are probably stored on personal servers somewhere, loosely strung together. The Tamara avatar is like a virus, a piece of incredibly intricate code that can travel from server to server.
post #129 of 349
Thread Starter 
I think that's what he was pointing out when he said "kids hang out at the hacker sites"  In other words, while the V-World has several areas that the company controls, it's quickly grown into a bunch of home-grown off site areas that they don't support or have anything to do with, and they are losing money and ground to them.
post #130 of 349

Assuming I accep everything you said... I still am left with the same question... Avatar or AI? I'd say Avatar, in which case when you die, your Avatar dies, because it doesn't have a brain to drive it. Obviously this isn't true based on the show. Before anyone answers AI (a topic that is part and parcel of the show), consider that if it's AI, what's the point of a person jacking in?

Here's how I can reconcile it, now that I've had a chance to think about it...
 
As I said before, I believe the VR world contains AI in the sense that there are probably characters who exist beyond being jacked in. There are also the "rules", so that if you walk into a wall, you can't just go through it. Something must stop your Avatar. Something must also send feedback to your brain in real life so you feel like you've hit a wall and stop walking. What I postulate has happened is Tamara has effectively been downloaded via wireless VR band into the VR world and become part of the construct, represented by AI code that is able to travel throughout the VR world (like a virus). The same thing has happened to Zoe, but she exists in a Cylon neural net instead of the VR computer, except when the Cylon computer taps into the VR world wirelessly.
 

post #131 of 349
Zoe Graystone "made" the Zoe Avatar, by accumulating all of the data out there about herself with a current brain scan. The Zoe Avatar is a sentient AI formed from all of the data that existed out there at the time Zoe made it. Because Zoe likely performed a brain scan specifically for creating the avatar, the Zoe Avatar probably has a clean break between Zoe memories and her own memories; one day was totally real Zoe, the next is totally avatar Zoe. By contrast, the Tamara Avatar is a shoddy knock off of the same process created by Daniel Graystone in order to convince Joseph Adama to retrieve the AI chip from the other company. Since he didn't have the flesh-and-blood girl to work with, he presumably used an old MRI or equivalent as the basis and then filled in the blanks from the public record. So it's entirely possible the sentience at the heart of the Tamara Avatar is copied from a 12-year-old's brain, a 10-year-old's brain -- or even younger -- but with flashes of more recent information that don't fit in neatly. The pilot showed us that everyone has a full body scan to create the avatar part of their holoband presence, so Graystone undoubtedly sourced Tamara's appearance from the most recent such body scan stored in his company's servers.

Both the Zoe Avatar and the Tamara Avatar are sentient, so they can grow and change and innovate just like flesh and blood beings. But on the most basic level, they are pieces of software and can be downloaded as software. Daniel Graystone downloaded the Zoe Avatar from V-World into the Cylon hardware. If Joseph Adama could find the Tamara Avatar, he could likely download her to his own server or hardware as well. In the meantime, the Tamara Avatar has special powers within V-World because she is more than simply an avatar of a biological creature; the entirety of what makes her her is stuck inside V-World. And since V-World is a crafted place, the rules that govern it are more manipulatable than the rules that govern the physical reality.
post #132 of 349
This show is indeed weird and just "out" there.

I'm sort of vibing on the whole Matrix-ish V-World/Tamara subplot, where she's literally a ghost in the machine, but hasn't quite reconciled it, even after learning the truth of it.

The Zoe/U-87 subplot is a bit snoozy.

The Adamas subplot feels like it's trying to conjure "Once Upon A Time on Caprica".

Caprica is a show where I have no idea where it's going because it's sort of wide open, but it's still grounded by the Cylon/BSG link in some respects, but they can take any different route to get to the BSG timeline and either make it exciting or not-so-interesting, I'm hoping for the former.
post #133 of 349
 The first episode that I felt really captured me. Hopefully the pace will pickup because I really can see some definate cool sifi potential.

But why am I complaining. It should be no wonder the plot moves like molasas. After its "58 years before the fall". They've got some time to kill. :)
post #134 of 349
Adam, do you think all Avatars in the V World are sentient? I'd have to go back and look at these episodes again, but I really don't think so. I think Zoe and Tamara are very unique cases that even the designer would be shocked by.
post #135 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikah Cerucco View Post

Adam, do you think all Avatars in the V World are sentient? I'd have to go back and look at these episodes again, but I really don't think so. I think Zoe and Tamara are very unique cases that even the designer would be shocked by.

Did you see the pilot? The reason I ask is, the origins of the Zoe and Tamara Avatars and what makes them unique are explicitly laid out in those first two hours.

The show makes a distinction between the computer term avatar, which is a virtual representation of a living breathing user, and the Avatars which are fully encapsulated software recreations of persons. The Zoe and Tamara Avatars are not avatars in the traditional computing sense, because they are the users, not merely representations of human users.

Something like ninety percent of the people in V-World are living breathing users. They may or may not look their avatars in the real world. The other ten percent or so of the people in V-World are AI programs that are not sentient but take human form within V-World. These are on par with the AI opponents in first person shooters; they are designed to react to certain stimuli originating from the human players, but they are not capable of the innovation or growth I mentioned in my last post. Most are visual metaphors of current software programs; for instance the bank guards are really just security programs for the mob boss's account.

Only the Zoe Avatar (created by Zoe Graystone before she died in the monorail bombing) and the Tamara Avatar (created by Daniel Graystone, cribbing liberally from his daughter's work on the Zoe Avatar) are truly and independently sentient. The Zoe Avatar was almost certainly a perfect copy of the biological Zoe up to the moment she was created. The Tamara Avatar is much more likely to be a flawed copy of the biological Tamara since Daniel Graystone didn't have access to the original girl.
post #136 of 349
V-World functions in multiple ways.

First, it acts as an internet of sorts, allowing the transfer of data in various forms.  You can interact with this data through various methods, such as e-sheets, computers, et cetera.

Second, users who are connected directly to V-World via the holobands can interact with each other, by way of avatars, which are digital representations of real people.  Avatars enter what are essentially virtual chat rooms (think old school IRC) that allow holoband users to do many of the things a person could do in real life--chat face-to-face, touch each other (the holoband makes it feel real), exchange information, et cetera.  There are also games and other entertainment options in V-World.  The catch is that all of this operates on Graystone-owned computer networks, so there's a fee to use it (how this works probably doesn't matter).

Enter the hackers.  Hackers have figured out a way to host their own rooms, on their own servers, and jack them into the V-World, expanding it beyond Graystone Industry's control.  These hacked rooms are passworded, with various levels of security place around them, so even the Graystone folks can't penetrate them.  What has happened is that the users have basically taken the holoband technology, and used it to interface with their own virtual creations/worlds/games/all that fun stuff.

Zoe, being the expert hacker she was, began experimenting with the V-World code, and with the avatar code--something easier for her since she was Daniel Graystone's daughter, and had privileged access one assumes.  Eventually, Zoe managed to create not just an AI, but a self-aware and sentient AI, which, since it "lived" in V-World, she fashioned after herself.  Further, Zoe was able to give the AI *personality,* which too was crafted after her own.  The end result was basically a virtual/digital copy of Zoe.

After the train accident, Daniel used Zoe's software to "rip" the AI-Zoe out of V-World, and onto a flash drive.  This was then uploaded into the cylon body.  From then on, Zoe no longer "lived" in V-World, but rather she lives in the real world, in the body of the cylon.  Whenever she wants to go into V-World, she has to interface with the holoband like anyone else (it seems she might be able to access V-World through online computers, too).

Comlicating things further, we have Daniel using Zoe's software to create a Tamara AI as well.  However, the Tamara AI doesn't have the months and months of acclimation Zoe's AI had, so she doesn't understand much of anything.  She's still sentient and self-aware, and has all the personality and memories of the real Tamara (debatable point, since while Daniel worked on the Zoe's software, it might not be as complete as the Zoe AI).  She just doesn't know she's an AI (though that is changing, obviously).

So the result is two very special instances of artifical intelligence.  Zoe, who is "living" in the cylon body (and can access both the real world and V-World), and Tamara, who is "living" in V-World (and can't access the real world, but can interact with anyone who logs into V-World).
post #137 of 349
I hope the writers stay on point and not flip and flop around ala "Lost" and "Hero". Those are good programs, but Caprica is supposed to get us to the war and how it came about.
post #138 of 349
Thanks for the summary guys. It makes sense to me now I did watch the pilot way back when (May 2009?) but I made the mistake (short on time) of thinking I didn't need to watch it again when it aired. Obviously I'd forgotten quite a bit after watching a Pilot that I wasn't even sure was going to be picked up at the time. Now that we've all done all that typing, here's hoping the show has turned a corner and will continue to be worth the effort we've invested (and will continue to invest).
post #139 of 349
Well this episode sealed the deal for me.  That was one heckuva of a ride.  Really enjoyed all the storylines with the V World the sexiest but the Graystone and Adama ones more emotionally engaging.  In for the long haul.
post #140 of 349
The Sister Clarice storyline just isn't working for me. I don't buy Polly Walker's performance, and I don't (with the exception of Lacy) buy how the other characters react to her. In a strange way, the Tamara Avatar's storyline is the most compelling because she's the only one who's reacting on an emotional, visceral level. Everyone one else has schemes insides schemes.
post #141 of 349
I really enjoyed this episode.

The scene with Adama "opening" the holoband packaging was one of the funniest I've seen in a show in a while.  I loved it when the camera slowly panned across the hammer, screwdriver, et cetera :)
post #142 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt View Post

The Sister Clarice storyline just isn't working for me. I don't buy Polly Walker's performance, and I don't (with the exception of Lacy) buy how the other characters react to her. In a strange way, the Tamara Avatar's storyline is the most compelling because she's the only one who's reacting on an emotional, visceral level. Everyone one else has schemes insides schemes.
 

I must agree on both counts.  What was really odd was after conducting a high-stress covert operation (to steal data off Daniel's computers), she goes home and... gets high?  OK, that perhaps is somewhat understandable to take the edge off, but surely she should have passed the gadget back first before going off to get stoned.  Instead, her multiple husbands find her in bed high as a kite, and one of them happens to find it and observes that it's full of data, so she must have succeeded.

OK, I'm just nitpicking that one sequence to death, but generally the whole Sister Clarice/STO storyline has not been as well-developed as the others, and really seems to be going nowhere, and doing it in a most uninteresting fashion.  With Daniel's and Zoe's stories, it's understandable that they get developed the most the fastest, but even say Tamara's, which was benched for a few weeks, just one ep kick-starts it in a big way -- when I watched it, I was going "She's The One" -- OK, just kidding, but it was so like Neo in the Matrix, when she just willed it and other avatars went pffftt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hooked.  But I hope the Clarice/STO story gets more interesting, otherwise it's turning to be a real drag.

Count me stupid, but did Vargis actually pland/want anything more than what he expressly stated at the end, i.e. that he wants to inflict maximum pain on Daniel while destroying him?  Unfortunately, when watching TV I just "hang on for the ride" and tend not to think very deeply about what's going on, and tend to miss nuances/clever social or political commentary/subtle plot points that are designed to pay off later.
post #143 of 349
I love the dynamic between Eric Graystone and Tomas Virgis.  Virgis is a man of strong convictions and directness that is refreshing.  He tells Graystone outright they are enemies, that Graystone stole his chip, that Graystone is responsible for the murder of 2 people he considered friends, and that he is going to do everything in his power to destroy Graystone. 

What can Graystone say or do?  For he knows that Virgis is in the right.  An interesting perspective shift on the show's lead character.  While Graystone's motivations were murky from the start the reveal that his actions caused the loss of life shifts him to a darker level.  What will Graystone do?  Will he resort to more dark dealings for Virgis is not a man to be bought?

This is a very intriguing storyline I can't wait to see played out.

As to the Sister storyline, I agree it is the weakest of the bunch.  Maybe it seems even more so because the other ones are so much stronger.

Another very good episode.
post #144 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Sytsma View Post

What will Graystone do?
 

My guess is the Cylon comes into play eventually.  Either Daniel uses her to do his dirty work, or Zoe herself opts to "get the job done."  I can see Virgis and his lackeys (everyone in this show has lackeys) break into the Graystone house, take out Serge (Virgis is good with electronics, afterall), and attack Amanda.  Cue Zoe in enforcer mode.
post #145 of 349
I agree the STO and Clarice storyline hasn't given us much payoff yet, but I don't mind being patient.  BSG was similarly slow paced in parts and while the resolutions were not always perfect, they came eventually.  BSG Spoiler re STO and what we already know:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I also think that because we know that the STO eventually carry some pretty significant impact into what becomes the cylons and their religion, civil uprising, etc., this stroyline is eventually going to become one of the core arcs.  Since that's the case and there are 40 years to fill, I'm fine that it's taken more than 6 eps to get hold.  We don't know yet how extensive the STO are, but it is in its infancy and the simultaneous nefarious yet disorganized nature of it seems realistic to me to other religious, terrorist underground organizations.
post #146 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Campisi View Post

I agree the STO and Clarice storyline hasn't given us much payoff yet, but I don't mind being patient.  BSG was similarly slow paced in parts and while the resolutions were not always perfect, they came eventually.  BSG Spoiler re STO and what we already know:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I also think that because we know that the STO eventually carry some pretty significant impact into what becomes the cylons and their religion, civil uprising, etc., this stroyline is eventually going to become one of the core arcs.  Since that's the case and there are 40 years to fill, I'm fine that it's taken more than 6 eps to get hold.  We don't know yet how extensive the STO are, but it is in its infancy and the simultaneous nefarious yet disorganized nature of it seems realistic to me to other religious, terrorist underground organizations.

Soldiers of the One aren't mentioned at all in BSG, other than
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
the infinity symbol the Cylons displayed during the mass funeral in "Islanded in a Stream of Stars."
There was a group in BSG called the Sons of Ares, but they aren't related at all.

Unless, however, you are referring to Baltar,
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
and his monotheistic cult
I guess what I'm saying is we don't know anything about STO, other than what we've seen in Caprica.
post #147 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post
 
I guess what I'm saying is we don't know anything about STO, other than what we've seen in Caprica.
 

i would agree that we don't know anything about the STO in formal name only.  from what we have seen in BSG we know a whole lot about the STO already.
post #148 of 349

The religion of the STO seems to be the same as the Cylons' religion in BSG. I think we are seeing the genesis not only of the Cylons but their religion.

post #149 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert A. Willis Jr. View Post

The religion of the STO seems to be the same as the Cylons' religion in BSG. I think we are seeing the genesis not only of the Cylons but their religion.



agreed.
post #150 of 349
Well, obviously.  My point was that we don't *know* anything, other than the Cylons in BSG believed in a one true god.  This is especially the since (spoiler for BSG)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
It would appear that very little of the Cylon's actions in BSG stemmed from their religion.  Cavil was essentially an atheist, and very few of the other skinjobs even referenced the one god.  The bulk of the"religious stuff" came from Head Six, Baltar, Gina, and Ellen.  We actually saw virtually nothing of the toaster's religious practices.
I guess what I was trying to say was I doubt we'll get many instances of "oh, so *that's* why so-and-so did that in BSG--it was because of the relgion!"
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