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Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

post #1 of 93
1/23/09 at 8:33am
Thread Starter 
This has been reported and discussed briefly on the Star Trek films on BD thread. The news of Star Trek TOS Season 1 deserves it's own thread for discussion and debate!

One aspect of the news that I didn't see coming regarding the TOS Season 1 sets is the inclusion of the original broadcast versions. (Original optical effects) That's a huge deal and while that's not fully confirmed, is very welcome news. I heard early rumors that would not happen. So perhaps they're listening to us fans.

Here's a quote from trekmovie's story:

Quote:
The biggest news we’ve learned is that CBS will finally release Star Trek: The Original Series - Season One on Blu-ray on the same street date in May as the movies. The release is currently planned to include both the original broadcast versions as well as the new Remastered versions of each episode. If this happens as planned, it’s obviously very cool news, though we’re still waiting to hear whether the Blu-rays will include all of the special features that were offered with the previous DVD and HD-DVD/DVD Combo releases of the series.

Blu-ray Update: TOS Season 1 + TOS Movies Coming May 2009 | TrekMovie.com
The Digital Bits: Celebrating Film on Disc - DVD & Blu-ray

Can't wait till May 2009 for so many reasons!

----------------

Some added thoughts on the release of TOS on BD;
I must say that I am excited about is the inclusion of the original optical effects in the set, if it turns out to be true! So thanks to CBS for listening to the fans!

But I think some of us will be amazed at the difference of how poor some of the original effects look now in hi-def! Not that I don't like them because some of the better composed shots look beautiful. But I am amazed at how I've gotten used the new CGI. Though sometimes they are flawed and CGI-ish! I am more aware of this now that I have seen the entire series Remastered. Some of the Enterprise motions look awkward, or the course of flight looked to be reused from other previous shots as a time saver. So some shots of the ship going into orbit of a planet looks wrong, like it's entering the atmosphere! Other shots like the Kligon Battlecrusier look poorly rendered and the motion of the ship's flight also looks awkward or unnatural as it veers off during a battle sequence in Elaan of Troyius.
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post #2 of 93
1/23/09 at 10:03am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

It's also possible that the original broadcast versions will only be in SD.
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post #3 of 93
1/23/09 at 10:27am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
It's also possible that the original broadcast versions will only be in SD.

I would expect that to be the case. When they did the "remastered" versions a few years ago, didn't they say that part of the reason for it was because the effects elements just didn't hold up to that kind of scrutiny? Which makes sense... the top of the line televisions in 1966 were nowhere near as big or high quality as the current models, so it didn't have to be as good.

Add to that that they already have SD versions of the original episodes, and that adding the SD versions to the set wouldn't take up much disc space, and even with no inside information whatsoever, I'm willing to bet its the SD versions of the original episodes that we get. Which I'm actually fine with - just as long as they're there. That had been the one sticking point that had kept me from buying the remastered episodes in the first place, and if the Blu-ray release fixes that, I'll be among the many rushing out to get it when it comes out.
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post #4 of 93
1/23/09 at 10:40am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

But, they did remaster the entire series, original effects and all. They did that before they made the new effects. So, who knows, we may see seamless branching of the effects only. Something like the old Doctor Who DVDs have done.
In any case, i am in.
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post #5 of 93
1/23/09 at 10:44am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Groovy. I probably won't lay out the money to replace my HD DVDs (and DVDs of the original versions), but I eagerly await seasons 2 & 3.
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post #6 of 93
1/23/09 at 11:36am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Any reason the original versions of the episodes couldn't be presented in HD, with the effects shot upscaled? That's pretty much what happened with the Blu-ray release of Firefly, isn't it?

Either way, I'm very pleased to learn that the original versions of the episodes are going to be included in some fashion.
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post #7 of 93
1/23/09 at 11:39am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

I hope they make the non-remastered version in HD---otherwise why would the folks who already own the episodes in SD bother with this set?

Having both the new & old FX versions in HD would make the 'purists' and the fans of the new FX happy. Simply having the original versions without being in HD is pointless.
But once again Paramount would have to have branching which they seem to not want to do.
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post #8 of 93
1/23/09 at 11:41am
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Carl, if you refer to upscaling the original optical effects, that isn't necessary as they are on film and have already been remastered at the same time they reworked the live action film elements. The issue is that the original optical effects were made from many layers of film and look worn or dirty and many have areas where the edges of the Enterprise is fading out or bleeding off.

I really hope the original TOS version is HD!
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post #9 of 93
1/23/09 at 1:29pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Any hint of pricing or should we just assume that like all previous releases of TOS, it will be over-pri....er I mean premium priced?
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post #10 of 93
1/23/09 at 2:56pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

If the original versions are included in HD, I'm in. Even at the likely high price.
(I would expect the episodes were first remastered with the original shots, if only because the original opticals/dissolves seem to still be there. Though I could be wrong on that)
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post #11 of 93
1/23/09 at 9:18pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

We could have the first case where they actually use some sort of ANGLE or PIP control so that the episodes play with the original effects or not. I don't see why with BD's capacity they can't offer some sort of seamless branching.
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post #12 of 93
1/24/09 at 12:37am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex cosmo
If the original versions are included in HD, I'm in. Even at the likely high price.
(I would expect the episodes were first remastered with the original shots, if only because the original opticals/dissolves seem to still be there. Though I could be wrong on that)

The claim is that the restoration came from the edited original camera negatives. This would explain why whenever a NEW effect shot is added, where there is a dissolve, the new shot starts a few frames earlier than the original.

This would indicate to me that the original effects shots were indeed scanned at the same time as the rest of the footage, and could be put in as a branching feature.

Considering that some episodes have as few as 5 or 6 effects shots, this shouldn't be too big a deal.

Doug
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post #13 of 93
1/24/09 at 9:03am
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

On the HD-DVD's of season 1, there are only a handful of episodes where they do a comparison of the original effects and new CGI effects. To watch the comparison, there is a split screen where the original is on one side and the CGI on the other. Unfortunately, you can't, as far as I know, watch the original in full screen.

That was disappointing and I hope the BD won't be just a simple port over from the HD-DVD and that they do indeed include the originals in HD! I miss the original dissolves as they align with the music and visuals.

The Starfleet Access was a cool feature too that is hopefully inclusive on this set. It's again, a picture in picture where you see a talking head discuss an aspect of the episode or series.
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post #14 of 93
1/24/09 at 9:18am
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
The claim is that the restoration came from the edited original camera negatives. This would explain why whenever a NEW effect shot is added, where there is a dissolve, the new shot starts a few frames earlier than the original.

That's my understanding too Douglas. What I'm curious about, because I am not in the film business, would this camera negative be called a "master" or some sort of similar term given that all the duplicates are made from that?

I guess the term camera negative is the literal piece of film in the camera they actually exposed the day they filmed the scene and edited together to make the whole episode. Which also includes the dissolves and effects. What I noticed on the remastered SD sets of S2 and S3, you can actually see some live action shots that look pristine and others not so. One shot will be on Kirk and then cut sway, then back to Kirk and it's quality has degraded a bit and it's sometimes right before a dissolve or edit. So it's obviously been processed.
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post #15 of 93
1/24/09 at 12:42pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Here's a crazy thought: What if the "remastered" episodes were presented in their 16x9 versions? If the original, unaltered versions are indeed going to presented in HD, I'm not too sure I'd have a problem with it. In fact, it might be interesting to see... and I'm surprised to find myself thinking that.

Mark
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post #16 of 93
1/25/09 at 2:18pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

The versions ofg the originals that TVLand has been showing look much better than the SD dvds. The colors are more vibrant, there is more detail, and the original Desilu logo from Season One (sans the 1978 copyright) is present.
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post #17 of 93
1/25/09 at 4:54pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_TB
Here's a crazy thought: What if the "remastered" episodes were presented in their 16x9 versions? If the original, unaltered versions are indeed going to presented in HD, I'm not too sure I'd have a problem with it. In fact, it might be interesting to see... and I'm surprised to find myself thinking that.

Mark

It would never happen because you couldn't use branching.
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post #18 of 93
1/26/09 at 1:11am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
That's my understanding too Douglas. What I'm curious about, because I am not in the film business, would this camera negative be called a "master" or some sort of similar term given that all the duplicates are made from that?

I guess the term camera negative is the literal piece of film in the camera they actually exposed the day they filmed the scene and edited together to make the whole episode. Which also includes the dissolves and effects. What I noticed on the remastered SD sets of S2 and S3, you can actually see some live action shots that look pristine and others not so. One shot will be on Kirk and then cut sway, then back to Kirk and it's quality has degraded a bit and it's sometimes right before a dissolve or edit. So it's obviously been processed.


Yes the original camera negative or ON is what went through the camera on the day the scene was photographed. Over the years the ON has been treated differently. At one time all prints were made from the ON. Later an internegative was created to make prints and save the wear and tear on the ON. This is one reason that a movie you see in the theater is not as sharp as what the director saw in the screening room. The internegative would be the Master, though they aren't referred to as such. Master is a video term and not typically used in film.

In the case of an optical effect, the final composite would be the "master". Its unlikely that the original effect elements still exist for Star Trek. Roddenberry was stealing them from the editing rooms even as the last 2 seasons were being made in order to sell them at sci-fi conventions. Its a shame because it would have been interesting to see how good those shots might have looked if they could have been re-composited digitally.

In the case of some live action shots looking soft or slightly grainier, generally they are because there is some kind of optical in that shot, such as a dissolve at the end. When a dissolve is used, the whole shot becomes an optical.

A good example of this is the episode The Conscience of the King. There is the scene where Kirk brings the body of his friend back to his wife. The scene starts with a dissolve, and that whole next shot is soft. Then it cuts away to the body, and then back to Kirk and the wife. That shot is now very sharp. It cuts away to the body again, then back to Kirk as he calls another ship on his communicator. That shot is now soft again, because there is another dissolve at the end.

Doug
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post #19 of 93
1/26/09 at 5:26am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

That the original broadcast episodes are included is a nice touch and makes it much more likely than not that I will get this. I just hope they have the good sense to include all the extras from the 2004 TOS DVD sets. Can't say I much like the packaging that leaked.
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post #20 of 93
1/26/09 at 6:54am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Favate
Can't say I much like the packaging that leaked.

I don't much care what the artwork looks like as long as the case isn't the shitty one used on the DVD and HD DVD releases. That damn thing was broken more often than not when I saw it and a complete pain in the ass to use.
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post #21 of 93
1/26/09 at 9:11am
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Thanks for the added clarity Douglas!

That's amazing that the original negatives, if they were used all these years to make prints, has survived so well. The remastered live action shot on the HD-DVD's of S1 and new SD remastered S2 and S3 really look impressive.

I'll have another look at Conscience of the King!
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post #22 of 93
1/26/09 at 9:26am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

I see 3 ways this could be interpreted..........

1. Simply the old fairly dirty prints included in SD as a bonus.....

2. The newly cleaned-up prints in SD with the old FX OR.........

3. The newly cleaned up prints in HD with the old FX

The third option would be the best case but would have to involve branching and Paramount HAS NEVER done branching on any Blu-ray release and won't do so for the upcoming movies...

I really with they'd clarify this when the official announcemnet is made.
I'm afraid they'll simply re-state the fact the original versions are included without saying in what format or in what shape.
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post #23 of 93
1/26/09 at 9:31am
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Or the Remastered prints in HD with original effects on separate discs. I guess that takes up more discs.
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post #24 of 93
1/26/09 at 9:59am

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

^^Yes you're right, separate discs would be a fourth option, but wouldn't that mean about 16 discs mimimum !!!!

Four episodes per disc---8 for HD with the new FX & 8 for HD with the old FX.

I can't imagine what a 16 disc set would cost from Paramount

Or wait option 5...........double sided discs again !!!
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post #25 of 93
1/26/09 at 1:57pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

I interpret the press release to mean that we'll see the remastered versions along with the unremastered that we already have on dvd. But that's just me. I'm of the school that thinks the old dvds looked pretty good.

Really, I don't think I'd be missing out on life if the BluRay only contained the remastered versions. I already have the oldies on dvd; don't care or need to buy them again.
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post #26 of 93
1/26/09 at 5:03pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camper
Four episodes per disc---8 for HD with the new FX & 8 for HD with the old FX.
Only four per disc? Ideally, but in the TV releases from WB they've been putting 3 episodes on single-layer discs or as many as 7 on a double-layered disc. (My only other TV release is Torchwood, which isn't exactly a typical American release case. )
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post #27 of 93
1/27/09 at 1:14pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

I'd be great if they went to at least 5 per disc-----then we could get season 1 down to 6 discs. As long as it doesn't affect quality, I'm for it.
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post #28 of 93
1/27/09 at 1:59pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

To contrast, the HD-DVD of Star Trek S1 has 3 episodes per disc and thee were 10 discs! I don't know how that translates from HD-DVD to Blu Ray's higher storage capacity and what of the extra features like Starfleet Access will be ported over and converted to work on BD.

The SD-DVD of Season 2 are on 7 discs with 4 episodes per disc. Season 3 is on 8 discs. No doubt for the addition of the 2 versions of The Cage.
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post #29 of 93
1/27/09 at 2:59pm

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Nelson, the HD-DVD set was limited to DVD storage capacity because they were combos.
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post #30 of 93
1/27/09 at 3:32pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Star Trek TOS Season 1 coming to BD in May-what we know so far

Not sure I follow Zack. You mean they spread out the episodes on the standard def side because they were limited on the SD side? And as combo discs, the standard side can't hold as much?
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