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THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2 - Page 3

post #61 of 444
1/16/09 at 6:50am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Willis
It showed that the ones making the decisions with the older shows don't identify with the era that the shows were broadcast originally. I'd guess that to the decision-makers at CBS/P, it's just another 60's series to sell.

Jeff, we both know that there are people here who have done their best to try and convince us otherwise - but it's awful hard for me not to come to the conclusion you mention above. Really, really hard not to come to that conclusion. Ever since this thing has happened I've always maintained that it's easy to dismiss this as a "small thing" when it's not your favorite show that's being mangled. I'd love to see how the worm would turn if this happened with a modern, super-popular show. We know that won't happen because the companies now take all the legal precautions to make sure music is cleared, but still... I'd love to see the reaction from others if it happened to their show. The old song says it best. "You'd cry too if it happened to you."

Gary "oh, yes I got that thing you asked me about Jeff - thanks" O.
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post #62 of 444
1/16/09 at 7:18am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
Jeff, we both know that there are people here who have done their best to try and convince us otherwise - but it's awful hard for me not to come to the conclusion you mention above. Really, really hard not to come to that conclusion. Ever since this thing has happened I've always maintained that it's easy to dismiss this as a "small thing" when it's not your favorite show that's being mangled. I'd love to see how the worm would turn if this happened with a modern, super-popular show. We know that won't happen because the companies now take all the legal precautions to make sure music is cleared, but still... I'd love to see the reaction from others if it happened to their show. The old song says it best. "You'd cry too if it happened to you."

Gary "oh, yes I got that thing you asked me about Jeff - thanks" O.

Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing that myself ("wearing the other guy's shoes"). My guess is that, if that happend (a current hit show released on DVD with sub'ed score), there would be a major overload on forum Bd's in 'net land.

I recently did a comparison at Mom's with an episode that we viewed from S2V1 "When the Bough Breaks". I played both versions for Mom (CBS/P release vs the original music episode). I played a few scenes and one of them was the ending scene where the Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Dad makes peace with Diana Hyland's character in the hospital scene.
No comparison at all. The original score adds 200% to just that scene in itself. That was the one that made our (Mom's & mine) decision to watch the remaining "S2V1" shows with original music.

Jeff "10-4, Gary. Post Office is still delivering" W.
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post #63 of 444
1/16/09 at 7:44am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Well I certainly won't be buying S2 v2 until the reviews confirm my worst fears.
Fortunately S2 was shown here in the UK (uncut) in the 90's so at least I have it on tape.
In actual fact I haven't pre-ordered any CBS/Paramount release since this fiasco.
Jeff, you are far from the oldest poster here, I have you well beat !
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post #64 of 444
1/16/09 at 11:12am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Given the (misleading) nature of the music disclaimer ("restored" audio) it is a certainty that this will the same scenario as Vol 1. As previously posted, had this issue been resolved it would be prominently noted.
I don't mean to pick on anyone in particular ... A lot of people seem to be coming to a conclusion based on the wording on the packaging.

The packaging refers to "restored audio" and says music has been changed.

BUT ... it's very important to note that the EXACT SAME WORDING appeared on the back of the packaging of both Season 1, Volume 1 and Season 1, Volume 2, and if any music was changed at all in those releases, it escaped the notice of everyone.

The wording on the packaging means nothing -- it's standard.
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post #65 of 444
1/16/09 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevisedAndExpanded
I don't mean to pick on anyone in particular ... A lot of people seem to be coming to a conclusion based on the wording on the packaging.

The packaging refers to "restored audio" and says music has been changed.

BUT ... it's very important to note that the EXACT SAME WORDING appeared on the back of the packaging of both Season 1, Volume 1 and Season 1, Volume 2, and if any music was changed at all in those releases, it escaped the notice of everyone.

The wording on the packaging means nothing -- it's standard.

I agree, and am taking a wait and see attitude before judging anything. The disclaimers have never been a help, so there's no reason to assume they're of any help here.

My fervent hope is that someone in power at CBS/P has looked into the situation and has righted it. It certainly took long enough since last summer's release.

That's my hope - but it's not my expectation. I'm a realist too, and know that things are not always as rosey as what I hope for.

The guys at TVShowsOnDVD have done well for us before in finding these things out, and I'm content to let them do their thing in providing us with some answers.

Harry
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post #66 of 444
1/16/09 at 12:28pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Personally, I'll be fine if they retained the Rugalo scores and replaced incidental music or the music that was borrowed from other sources. It's the distinctive Fugitive music that is missed -- and I would think it is the music that is the easiest to get a lock on.

I'll buy the DVDs either way, but for those who can't get past the music changes, I suggest that if you really want to make a statement, order the DVDs and then return them. A "don't order" stance doesn't get a point across -- CBS/Paramount would interpret low sales as lack of interest. High returns from customers would make a statement that is undeniable. Plus, returns cost CBS/Paramount money. (There are processing fees for returns.)
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post #67 of 444
1/16/09 at 2:43pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevisedAndExpanded
I don't mean to pick on anyone in particular ... A lot of people seem to be coming to a conclusion based on the wording on the packaging.

I can't speak for anyone else but I can assure you that I personally am NOT coming to a conclusion based solely on the wording of the package. My conclusions are based on what CBS/Paramount has already demonstrated by way of previous action. A man is a fool who tries to pet the dog that just bit him.

I live in west-central Florida. I've been here for over 40 years. In that time I can only remember one snowfall that actually stuck. We got about 2 inches that day back in the late 70's. I guess it's possible that it could snow again this year. The likelihood isn't great but "anything" can happen. However, based on what I've experienced previously, I'd be all but lying if I told my kids it "might" snow tonight while they are asleep. That's where I am with this upcoming set. Sure, it "might" contain a restored Rugolo score but I can't in good conscience say it's a real possibility or that there's a good chance of it.

Gary "does anyone here really believe there is an honest to goodness, 50/50 coin-flip chance that we will hear the original music on this upcoming set?" O.

P.S. I hope I'm wrong, but as Harry said we have to be realists.
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post #68 of 444
1/16/09 at 3:58pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevisedAndExpanded
Personally, I'll be fine if they retained the Rugalo scores and replaced incidental music or the music that was borrowed from other sources. It's the distinctive Fugitive music that is missed -- and I would think it is the music that is the easiest to get a lock on.


That's a tough call for me personally. Certainly the Rugolo score is the heart of the show and by far the most important part of the music overall. But there are quite a few other cues (I'm guessing mostly Capitol Music ones) that I became used to and would miss terribly if replaced. I guess I could grin and bear it, but it'd almost be like visiting the doctor for an annual exam I'm told men my age should have. Seriously, it would be that tough of a call for me.

Gary "I guess I'd live with that compromise, but I'd rather see all the scores retained for sure" O.
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post #69 of 444
1/16/09 at 4:23pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
That's a tough call for me personally. Certainly the Rugolo score is the heart of the show and by far the most important part of the music overall. But there are quite a few other cues (I'm guessing mostly Capitol Music ones) that I became used to and would miss terribly if replaced. I guess I could grin and bear it, but it'd almost be like visiting the doctor for an annual exam I'm told men my age should have. Seriously, it would be that tough of a call for me.

Gary "I guess I'd live with that compromise, but I'd rather see all the scores retained for sure" O.
You probably pay closer attention to the music than I do, or know the sources better than I do.

The only music cues I truly miss are Rugalo's, because as I understand it, in addition to the main theme and the variations of that that are used as cues, the cue music for characters (such as Gerard) are Rugalo's as well.

Now, while it's only Rugalo's scores that I miss, the other part of the problem was that the new music was poorly done at times -- it didn't always fit the scene, and the audio mix was terrible. Cripes, some of those cues were loud! And they also felt a bit too crisp.

I fully understand why some people want to boycott the DVDs entirely. I'm also a fan of WKRP, and if you think The Fugitive release was bad, you ain't seen nothin'. WKRP was hacked all to hell, and some scenes were even removed entirely because of music rights issues. So I guess after going through that, The Fugitive's situation pales in comparison, so I'm a little more lenient.

I'm also of the opinion that I'd rather have The Fugitive with hacked-up music than no Fugitive at all (and I'm not a fan of bootlegs).

I'll never be happy about replacement music, but I'd be more unhappy if I could never collect the entire series.
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post #70 of 444
1/16/09 at 4:32pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I'll say it again. If the music had been restored back to the original, we'd have heard about it already. Everyone who's been following this knows what we're going to get--more Heyes gobbledygook.

But I hope I have to eat my words. I really do. I'll eat them happily.
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post #71 of 444
1/16/09 at 5:07pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I'll say it again. If the music had been restored back to the original, we'd have heard about it already. Everyone who's been following this knows what we're going to get--more Heyes gobbledygook.

But I hope I have to eat my words. I really do. I'll eat them happily.
I would think that you're right, to be honest ... but on the other hand, where would we have heard it? In their press release?

I'm doubtful that CBS/Paramount would draw attention to the controversy by saying something about it in a press release. We have to keep in mind that while we're all aware of the situation, the vast majority of people walking around HMV and spotting a great classic on DVD don't hang out on message boards and don't come to sites like this ... which is just about the only place that gives good, timely info on such releases. And most people don't even bother reading reviews on Amazon, so they're not getting the goods there.

I think their motivation for talking about it in a press release about the new DVDs has to be quite low.

Of course, as you can probably tell, I'm trying to convince myself that they fixed things this time around, but that's in my nature. I'll hope for the best, and I can deal with the consequences if we get hacked-up music at the end of march.
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post #72 of 444
1/16/09 at 5:45pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Frankly, I think either Paramount would have announced it (to improve sales, because face it, the people who are going to buy it anyway will buy it, but if you restore the music you get more sales from people like me and the folks on these boards. You don't lose any sales by announcing it).

I also believe Dave and Gord would have been told by someone way before now if the music had been restored. That's just my own personal belief, but it seems logical.

Again, I hope I'm wrong.
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post #73 of 444
1/17/09 at 3:17am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Guys. Mind games here: Suppose for a minute that someone at CBS/P got wind of the matter, took the situation to heart, and ordered a "partial-fix" to the situation.

By "partial-fix", I'm thinking along the lines of, Rugolo music restored to the Act intros, perhaps outros, and with Heyes music the rest of the way.

It's been stated here many times that the place where the Rugolo music is missed most is at the act intros.

The only reason I bring it up is the timing of the release. S2V1 last summer was all but rushed out to release after spring's S1V2 release. For them to wait about nine months for the next release just has an air about it that says that maybe they attempted to fix something about this release.

Or - it could just be the sucky economy that's slowed down other release dates as well.

Don't know, just playing devil's advocate here.

Harry
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post #74 of 444
1/17/09 at 5:48am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
Guys. Mind games here: Suppose for a minute that someone at CBS/P got wind of the matter, took the situation to heart, and ordered a "partial-fix" to the situation.

By "partial-fix", I'm thinking along the lines of, Rugolo music restored to the Act intros, perhaps outros, and with Heyes music the rest of the way.

It's been stated here many times that the place where the Rugolo music is missed most is at the act intros.


Harry, I certainly agree that the Rugolo score is missed most at the beginning of the different acts and the epilogue. But for me personally, restoring only that portion of the backscore would NOT be enough. There are too many other places all through the episodes where the Rugolo music plays and is integral to setting the mood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
The only reason I bring it up is the timing of the release. S2V1 last summer was all but rushed out to release after spring's S1V2 release. For them to wait about nine months for the next release just has an air about it that says that maybe they attempted to fix something about this release.

Or - it could just be the sucky economy that's slowed down other release dates as well.


In this case I personally don't believe the [seemingly] delayed release date has anything to do with CBS/Paramount fixing anything, although I hope I'm wrong about that. I also don't think it's about the economy. I believe had there not been a horrible backlash, one that was unexpected by CBS/P, from the Season 2, Volume 1 release then we would have seen Season 2, V. 2 before the end of the year. That's just the type of schedule it appeared CBS/Paramount had settled in on with this show.

Nope, I believe this delayed release was due to one thing and one thing only - the bad press CBS/Paramount received after the replaced music dvd came out. They wanted this series to fly under the radar for a bit. Kinda wait out the storm, so to speak. I'm convinced that's the reason they waited nearly10 months in between releases. Nothing more than that. Of course that purely conjecture on my part, but until I hear or see otherwise it's what I'm going to believe was the reason.

Gary "like others, I'll be overjoyed to eat my words if this upcoming release has the Rugolo backscore restored throughout the episodes" O.
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post #75 of 444
1/17/09 at 6:44am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
Harry, I certainly agree that the Rugolo score is missed most at the beginning of the different acts and the epilogue. But for me personally, restoring only that portion of the backscore would NOT be enough. There are too many other places all through the episodes where the Rugolo music plays and is integral to setting the mood.





In this case I personally don't believe the [seemingly] delayed release date has anything to do with CBS/Paramount fixing anything, although I hope I'm wrong about that. I also don't think it's about the economy. I believe had there not been a horrible backlash, one that was unexpected by CBS/P, from the Season 2, Volume 1 release then we would have seen Season 2, V. 2 before the end of the year. That's just the type of schedule it appeared CBS/Paramount had settled in on with this show.

Nope, I believe this delayed release was due to one thing and one thing only - the bad press CBS/Paramount received after the replaced music dvd came out. They wanted this series to fly under the radar for a bit. Kinda wait out the storm, so to speak. I'm convinced that's the reason they waited nearly10 months in between releases. Nothing more than that. Of course that purely conjecture on my part, but until I hear or see otherwise it's what I'm going to believe was the reason.

Gary "like others, I'll be overjoyed to eat my words if this upcoming release has the Rugolo backscore restored throughout the episodes" O.

I totally agree here. There are too many places throughout the episodes where the music sets the mood, either Rugulo or CBS cues. And even though the CBS cues have been used in other shows, somehow they fit perfectly in this show. Part of it is a nostalgia thing I will admit, but now that I have watched almost all of the episodes with these cues, it just would not be the same show without them.

I must admit that I like the music from seasons 1-3 a lot more than season 4, and MAYBE could go with music replacement for season 4 (NOT the Rugulo cues), but like everyone else on this board I am going to hope for the (probably) impossible, that they make it right.

Dave
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post #76 of 444
1/17/09 at 7:30am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Heres something that maybe somebody could help me out with:

I know we are all busy, but if somebody has the original episodes could he or she pick an episode, say, from season one, (not See Hollywood and Die, I know a lot of the jazzy stuff like when the hoods show up at the beginning is not Rugulo) maybe Flight From the Final Demon or Taps For a Dead War for instance, time where all the different cues start, identify if the cue is from CBS or Rugulo and post that information here?

I know the obvious Rugulo cues, but I have always been interested in the other familiar ones, and whose they were. Some sound like they could be a variation on Rugulo, and I have not watched enough Twilight Zone or Outer Limits to be able to identify the others.

If anyone has the time.

Thanks,

Dave
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post #77 of 444
1/17/09 at 7:42am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

It doesn't matter if the music is different. DO NOT complain if the music is changed. I want this whole series on DVD. I don't watch a show for the music.
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post #78 of 444
1/17/09 at 7:43am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Dave, I've also wondered which cues are non-Rugalo. Personally, I'm of the belief that if all of Rugalo's scores were retained, there would not have been a backlash. I suspect some may have noticed that some music was replaced, though I'm not convinced of this.

I think the problem CBS had is that they couldn't identify which cues were Rugalo's and which came from other sources. Or perhaps they could to a certain extent, but there were too many uncertainties.

My hope is that the uncertainties were ditched, and the certainties dealt with.

Too answer an earlier question, if there is replacement music, I'll personally be happy if a) all the known Rugalo cues are retained, b) the replacement music fits the tone of the scenes, and c) the sound mixing is a little better.

All these things were problems in the S2V1 release.
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post #79 of 444
1/17/09 at 7:46am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve...O
Given the (misleading) nature of the music disclaimer ("restored" audio)

That's not a music disclaimer. It says "audio." There's nothing misleading about it.

As for the music disclaimer, it says "Some music has been changed for this home entertainment version." I'll take it. It's great to have this classic on DVD.
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post #80 of 444
1/17/09 at 7:46am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by elec08
It doesn't matter if the music is different. DO NOT complain if the music is changed. I want this whole series on DVD. I don't watch a show for the music.

For me the music is half of this show. We can agree to disagree.

Dave
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post #81 of 444
1/17/09 at 8:55am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I really don't care to revisit this entirely aggravating subject (the sickening treatment of one of my all-time favorite shows), but I have to jump in to say that I find it EXTREMELY disturbing if the 'syndicated' run is now utilizing those re-scored prints as well.
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post #82 of 444
1/17/09 at 9:54am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by elec08
It doesn't matter if the music is different. DO NOT complain if the music is changed. I want this whole series on DVD.
Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean that it doesn't or can't matter to other people. DO NOT complain if the whole series doesn't get released on DVD because Paramount desroyed their own sales by changing the music.

I could be wrong but I imagine that this will be the last release of The Fugitive and the only reason that this is coming out at all is because they already spent the money on the new score and want to try to recoup some of that money.
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post #83 of 444
1/17/09 at 11:00am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Ok, I went thru a couple of episodes and found the music cues I am interested in finding out about. Id like to know if they are CBS cues or Rugulo cues.

In Taps For a Dead War:

8:59 to 9:26
17:53 to 20:37
41:20 to 42:07
45:46 to 46:15

In Flight From the Final Demon:

1:56 to 3:10
3:11 to 3:43
3:47 to 4:02
6:54 to 7:09
9:35 to 10:17
20:13 to 21:39
24:12 to 26:20
31:04 to 32:17
32:18 to 34:10
36:27 to 36:38
37:09 to 39:20
39:53 to 41:45
41:46 to 42:34
44:51 to 46:34
46:35 to 47:47
48:48 to 49:48

There may be a duplicate in here but I dont think so. Anyway, if someone has absolutely nothing else to do I would appreciate the help.

Thanks,

Dave
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post #84 of 444
1/17/09 at 4:39pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean that it doesn't or can't matter to other people. DO NOT complain if the whole series doesn't get released on DVD because Paramount desroyed their own sales by changing the music.

I will complain because it will be the childish whining of people like you that sinks this series. The music DOES NOT matter. If you like the music so much, go and buy the soundtrack on CD.
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post #85 of 444
1/17/09 at 5:59pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by elec08
That's not a music disclaimer. It says "audio." There's nothing misleading about it.

As for the music disclaimer, it says "Some music has been changed for this home entertainment version." I'll take it. It's great to have this classic on DVD.

I respectfully disagree with the first part. The "audio" verbiage is not found on CBS/P other releases (at least none that I'm aware of). The "restored" part presumably is supposed to "disclose" the new underscore to the series without actually admitting there is a new underscore. This is a material enough change that the magnitude of it should have been disclosed to the buyer.

For the second part, you are well within your rights as a consumer to purchase this if the music changes don't bother you. It's unfortunate that CBS/P didn't make full disclosure with the changes.

Bottom line is that this iconic series deserved better.
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post #86 of 444
1/17/09 at 6:03pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I hate to be a schoolmarm, but all together now: R-U-G-O-L-O.
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post #87 of 444
1/17/09 at 8:32pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Funny how it is always someone with very few posts who comes into these FUGITIVE threads and tries to stir up trouble. For my part, I'm gonna ignore them. If someone with more than 5 posts comes alongs and says they love the show with the new music, I might be inclined to actually take their post seriously. It's the same with 5-star reviews of the altered sets on Amazon; virtually all are by first-time reviewers.

True, I had only 1 post when I broke the news about the original alterations; the difference is I was stating a fact, not an opinion, and my post didn't repeat a previous pattern of an inciting a conflict that ended up with the previous thread being locked.
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post #88 of 444
1/18/09 at 1:22am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

deleted by carab
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post #89 of 444
1/18/09 at 3:53am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

It is quite true that Mr. Emery, "elec08", seems to have one mission in life on this forum. At this point in time, he's had exactly five posts - three in the other thread and one here. There's one other post back in November in a HTPC thread about backup software.

And it was our esteemed Mr. Epstein who pointed out that Mr. Emery's posts in the old thread were few and suspicious, yet were inflammatory enough to cause heightened emotions in the waning days of that thread.

I believe our friend Carabimero is correct - that people like "elec08" seem to exist to stir up the pot and provide opposing points of view. The same applies to the five-star reviewers over at Amazon.

Anyone on the Internet can say anything. Anonymity provides cover so people feel that they can just say anything.

I urge everyone to simply ignore Mr. elec08 until such time as he proves himself a member with valid viewpoints. For a member to only have such an apparent singular mission in life seems a bit odd, but we all have our interests.

Harry
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post #90 of 444
1/18/09 at 4:18am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I don't begrudge Mr. elec08 to say whatever he wants within the posted rules--I'd just hate to give him the satisfaction of inciting another conflict that locked this thread too.

Richard Kimble kept his cool under forces that tried to make him crack--a great example for all!
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