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THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2 - Page 12

post #331 of 444
4/6/09 at 8:38am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
S3 as I've said before will be the big acid test because they will have started work on these episodes only after they finally realized the controversy they created.

More like, who at the studios will be "dropping acid" when the decisions are made for the soundtrack to S3.

Quote:
It really doesn't take much to create a music expert on The Fugitive. Just watch episodes of Gunsmoke, The Twilight Zone, Outer Limits. The cues are repeated often enough that a person keeping track should recognize them easily. It seems like the people putting this together really don't watch that much classic TV, or their own show for that matter.

The worst of it is they do have at least one music expert from that time that worked on "Fugitive" and other shows--John Elizalde. He probably would have worked as a consultant free gratis.
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post #332 of 444
4/6/09 at 8:44am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
More like, who at the studios will be "dropping acid" when the decisions are made for the soundtrack to S3.

LOL. Now you are sounding like me, Michael. Welcome to the club.


Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
The worst of it is they do have at least one music expert from that time that worked on "Fugitive" and other shows--John Elizalde. He probably would have worked as a consultant free gratis.

Exactly! And this is why I'm not as willing to give CBS/Paramount a pass like many of the folks in this thread are apparently willing to. I just can't do it, because no matter how you slice it the studio could have done a better job with just a little bit more effort. There are undoubtedly several people living in and around L.A. that would have gladly worked on this project for little to nothing - people that do know the cues! It's not something the "average Joe" would want to handle, but it's not nearly as impossible a task as some might believe.

Gary "no free passes from me - this second volume is a real mess" O.
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post #333 of 444
4/6/09 at 9:38am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Well, Gary that "medical marijuana" comment of yours is what got me primed.

Quote:
Gary "no free passes from me - this second volume is a real mess" O.

Well that truly is ashame and after reading so many other comments posted here, I had that sinking feeling after having already placed my order for vol. 2. The worst of it is that the music substitutions are not wholesale or flagrant enough to warrant a replacement set in the future--my guess, anyway.
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post #334 of 444
4/6/09 at 9:58am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
...the music substitutions are not wholesale or flagrant enough to warrant a replacement set in the future...
This just-released S2V2 is the replacement set, in light of the original All-Heyes version of S2V1.

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post #335 of 444
4/6/09 at 10:22am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
This just-released S2V2 is the replacement set, in light of the original All-Heyes version of S2V1

True enough, and if Paramount wanted to follow-up with a "proof of purchase" submission for a further enhanced set where 60-65% (?) music soundtrack integrity were brought up to the vol.1 level of 80-90%, I wouldn't mind the inconvenience. Except to say that, like Tina I'm still waiting on the vol. 1 discs!
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post #336 of 444
4/6/09 at 12:02pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
...a further enhanced set where 60-65% (?) music soundtrack integrity were brought up to the vol.1 level of 80-90%...
That idea, which I heartily support, makes me think about the TZ's "Definitive Editions" ...rather than another free Fugitive replacement program.

Somewhere at CBS/P, there's a gleam in the eye of a marketing manager imagining a "Musician's Cut" version of THE FUGITIVE Volumes 1-4.

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post #337 of 444
4/6/09 at 12:17pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Somewhere at CBS/P, there's a gleam in the eye of a marketing manager imagining a "Musician's Cut" version of THE FUGITIVE Volumes 1-4.

With the inclusion of a lengthy featurette hosted by Jon Burlingame and John Elizalde? Better still would be a TV informercial with these two gentleman pitching the "fan's definitive collection" in that "your old scratchy LPs vs. our new remastered CD set" manner that you see for oldies collections.
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post #338 of 444
4/6/09 at 12:27pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
...a TV infomercial with these two gentleman pitching the "fan's definitive collection" in that "your old scratchy LPs vs. our new remastered CD set" manner that you see for oldies collections.
Now there's an infomercial I'd actually WATCH!
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post #339 of 444
4/6/09 at 1:01pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Gary, I think we're just ultimately a victim of the timing in how the projects were done. Suppose for instance we got to see V2 first with this lower level of original music restored and *then* were exposed to the corrected versions of V1? Our overall tone would be about how as they do more of these, they're getting better. I think its clear they worked on V2 first after initially preparing it as 100% Heyes.
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post #340 of 444
4/6/09 at 1:32pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
Gary, I think we're just ultimately a victim of the timing in how the projects were done. Suppose for instance we got to see V2 first with this lower level of original music restored and *then* were exposed to the corrected versions of V1? Our overall tone would be about how as they do more of these, they're getting better. I think its clear they worked on V2 first after initially preparing it as 100% Heyes.

I understand that reasoning, Jack, and it is logical. Having said that, I don't for one minute believe they reworked Season 2, V. 2 before Season 2, V. 1.

My belief is when they hired Heyes they had him do all of Season 2 at once. After the fallout they came back through and redid all of Season 2 at the same time, giving us a chance at getting the redone V.1 before releasing V.2. That seems the most likely sequence to me.

Gary "I'm still inclined to believe they had a person or persons working on these replacements that doesn't know the show very well at all and that the entire Season 2 could have easily been much, much better with just a small amount of real effort on CBS/Paramount's part" O.
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post #341 of 444
4/6/09 at 2:05pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Even on that timing element Gary, wouldn't it follow more that V2 would have been redone first *at the same time when they would have been doing all of S2* given that a higher quantity of V2 discs needed to be produced to get it on-time for its street date? By contrast, they couldn't possibly have produced as many V1 replacement discs as they have V2 sets at this point even with their availability two weeks before V2 was released?
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post #342 of 444
4/6/09 at 2:38pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
Even on that timing element Gary, wouldn't it follow more that V2 would have been redone first *at the same time when they would have been doing all of S2* given that a higher quantity of V2 discs needed to be produced to get it on-time for its street date? By contrast, they couldn't possibly have produced as many V1 replacement discs as they have V2 sets at this point even with their availability two weeks before V2 was released?

Yes, I see your point. And it may very well be that you are correct. I was just assuming they originally did Season 2 completely in Heyes and then came back and redid Season 2 in the same manner - starting from "Man in a Chariot" and working forward from there.

Gary "but with this company, who knows what the truth is" O.
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post #343 of 444
4/6/09 at 4:03pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from the 60's
More like, who at the studios will be "dropping acid" when the decisions are made for the soundtrack to S3.

It's back to the 60's But I get your drift. "Ain't it the truth?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary a fellow Fuge Fanatic
And this is why I'm not as willing to give CBS/Paramount a pass like many of the folks in this thread are apparently willing to. I just can't do it, because no matter how you slice it the studio could have done a better job with just a little bit more effort. There are undoubtedly several people living in and around L.A. that would have gladly worked on this project for little to nothing - people that do know the cues! It's not something the "average Joe" would want to handle, but it's not nearly as impossible a task as some might believe.

That's it for me as well. Because of the inconsistencies with the entire backscore issue, I can't see applauding CBS/P much to date. Yes, they did re-issue S2V1 and it's definitely an improvement, but, and here's where my view differs substantially from some here, is that the Rugolo portion of the backscore, while a necessary portion (and admittedly the "sig" of the show) is not enough for me to give "kudos" to CBS/P. For some of us, the cues are a big part of the mood for this show.

This is just imo here, but for me, I place the Rugolo portion at about 60-65% of the overall "impact" for me when I'm watching the show.

Another imo about this issue, but seeing how as it's opening day for us baseball sports fans out there, the analogy that I put on this backscoring replacement/editing/Heyes, etc.. issue is how a MLB batter would feel if they swapped out home plate umpires after every inning. Let's see...."Low strike zone"...."High strike zone"...."Nat'l League" strikes...."American League" strikes.....

"Know what I mean, Vern?"
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post #344 of 444
4/6/09 at 7:58pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Willis
It's back to the 60's But I get your drift. "Ain't it the truth?"



That's it for me as well. Because of the inconsistencies with the entire backscore issue, I can't see applauding CBS/P much to date. Yes, they did re-issue S2V1 and it's definitely an improvement, but, and here's where my view differs substantially from some here, is that the Rugolo portion of the backscore, while a necessary portion (and admittedly the "sig" of the show) is not enough for me to give "kudos" to CBS/P. For some of us, the cues are a big part of the mood for this show.

This is just imo here, but for me, I place the Rugolo portion at about 60-65% of the overall "impact" for me when I'm watching the show.

Another imo about this issue, but seeing how as it's opening day for us baseball sports fans out there, the analogy that I put on this backscoring replacement/editing/Heyes, etc.. issue is how a MLB batter would feel if they swapped out home plate umpires after every inning. Let's see...."Low strike zone"...."High strike zone"...."Nat'l League" strikes...."American League" strikes.....

"Know what I mean, Vern?"


I could give CBS/Paramount high marks on the redo if only the Capitol cues, the ones really in question, were the ones that were missing. But for replacing cues used from other shows, cues that they actually own and have no reason to replace, and cues that give this show feeling, I can't give them credit for. I agree it is better than the whole Heyes score, but it could be better. If season 3 voulme one comes out like this, then I am done and will just have to be happy with my bootlegs.
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post #345 of 444
4/6/09 at 9:44pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I just got through "Moon Child" which really comes off sounding like a mess with the greatest level of Heyes music I've heard in any of the episodes so far and where the sound of modern synths was more pronounced than at any other time when I've heard Heyes music. "The Survivors" fared better except for the two key "chase" moments of the story, when again we got overly loud blasting Heyes. This was the first time I went back and made a comparison with an episode I had transferred off from VHS to DVD and while I didn't recognize what the original cues for these sequences were (they weren't from any TZ episode I'm familiar with so I doubt they came from there) the important contrast was that they could be pulsing and urgent without being so blasting.

I am going to keep banking on the hope for now that V1 represented an improved standard of getting things done right and that V2 represents their initial more imperfect standards of restoration, because if that's the case then the damage that's been done to some of these latter S2 episodes will be more tolerable long-term. I think if we can relax ourselves and try to hang some hope that this is the case of how things unfolded, we can stay cool until S3 V1 is released and then we'll find out just how good or bad their standards of replacement have become.
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post #346 of 444
4/7/09 at 6:47am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

If nothing else, you would think they could at least do a better job of how they integrate the Heyes sound based on the complaints. It keeps coming up that the Heyes inserts are too loud/blasting. If adding new sounds, I would think it would be added in a low key fashion so as to not be so obvious.

So if we are stuck with the concept of integrating in new music, is there a way to inform them for seasons 3 and 4, to:
- possibly replace Heyes with someone else that has a different style
- create new music that is low key and non-intrusive
- try creating music more fitting to the original style and period.

If continuing to complain to get the original scores put back in won't work then maybe complaining that they need to do a better job of selecting the new scores or integrating the new scores will help. Just a thought.
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post #347 of 444
4/7/09 at 7:54am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I had ordered both season 2 volumes, but after hearing about all the changes making volume 2 worse than the "fixed" volume 1, I probably will be returning the sets. I can live with the alternative set. I'll just spend the money on another show that hasnt been butchered. Need to save the money anyway.

Dave
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post #348 of 444
4/7/09 at 9:47am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

V1 is worth having, because the ratio of fixed music is in excess of 80-85%. I can understand waiting on V2 to see if S3 will be okay but for now I would caution again about not getting too disheartened over the long-term future of the show at this point.
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post #349 of 444
4/7/09 at 12:34pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Paul Mavis' review for "The Fugitive" S2, vol. 2:

The Fugitive - Season Two, Volume Two : DVD Talk Review of the DVD Video
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post #350 of 444
4/7/09 at 2:06pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I have to confess while I like most of Paul's reviews he disappoints here again as he did on V1. He not only gets the network the show aired on wrong (it was ABC, not CBS) but he still hasn't brought himself up to speed on the nature of the controversy surrounding the music. He's under the impression that the old music was entirely new stuff by Rugolo as opposed to being a mixture of Rugolo and CBS Library music, and he also hasn't read the important John Burlingame article that laid to rest the question of why the replacements occurred in the first place (because the cue sheets were messed up and spooked CBS/Paramount regarding what they owned free and clear and what they didn't).
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post #351 of 444
4/7/09 at 3:29pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
I have to confess while I like most of Paul's reviews he disappoints here again as he did on V1. He not only gets the network the show aired on wrong (it was ABC, not CBS) but he still hasn't brought himself up to speed on the nature of the controversy surrounding the music. He's under the impression that the old music was entirely new stuff by Rugolo as opposed to being a mixture of Rugolo and CBS Library music, and he also hasn't read the important John Burlingame article that laid to rest the question of why the replacements occurred in the first place (because the cue sheets were messed up and spooked CBS/Paramount regarding what they owned free and clear and what they didn't).

Someone gave me a heads-up that my review had been linked here and was being discussed. Sorry it disappointed you, but just two corrections: I identify ABC as the correct network in the first reviews (I even discuss the line-up that night for The Fugitive). Perhaps you're mixing it up when I'm mentioning the releasing arm of Paramount here, CBS DVD (look on your set - the logo's right on top). If there's a typo somewhere in the review, though, where I write CBS instead of ABC, let me know, and I'll change it.

And nothing in my review suggests I think Rugolo did the new cues (my previous posts on this issue make that pretty clear) -- I think you're reading that into that particular sentence for some reason. Read my paragraph again about that issue -- I just didn't mention Heyes by name.

I'm glad you like most of my other reviews, though.
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post #352 of 444
4/7/09 at 4:22pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Mavis
If there's a typo somewhere in the review, though, where I write CBS instead of ABC, let me know, and I'll change it.

Here's where the review indicated CBS ran the original series:
"And the season finale, Last Second Of a Big Dream, although set in a too-familiar setting (it always seemed like CBS set at least one episode of their series each year at JungleLand),..."
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post #353 of 444
4/7/09 at 4:23pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Thanks for replying Paul, and these are the points in question I was referring to, first regarding the CBS reference.

"And the season finale, Last Second Of a Big Dream, although set in a too-familiar setting (it always seemed like CBS set at least one episode of their series each year at JungleLand),"

If this is a typo and ABC was supposed to be there, I'm glad to know that.

On the music issue I was referring to this comment:

"because series composer Pete Rugolo's underscores for those episodes were eliminated and replaced with new music cues. That evocative opening and closing theme was retained, but everything else by Rugolo, apparently, was replaced"

The point was not that I said that the "new music" as in the replacement music was identified by you as Rugolo, I was referring to the description of the original music as *all* Rugolo when the "Fugitive's" original music is a mixture of library music composed by Rugolo mixed in with CBS Library music originally composed for "Twilight Zone" etc. and other shows. Sorry that I didn't clarify that point.
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post #354 of 444
4/7/09 at 4:31pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Willis
Because of the inconsistencies with the entire backscore issue, I can't see applauding CBS/P much to date. Yes, they did re-issue S2V1 and it's definitely an improvement, but, and here's where my view differs substantially from some here, is that the Rugolo portion of the backscore, while a necessary portion (and admittedly the "sig" of the show) is not enough for me to give "kudos" to CBS/P. For some of us, the cues are a big part of the mood for this show.

This is just imo here, but for me, I place the Rugolo portion at about 60-65% of the overall "impact" for me when I'm watching the show.

Another imo about this issue, but seeing how as it's opening day for us baseball sports fans out there, the analogy that I put on this backscoring replacement/editing/Heyes, etc.. issue is how a MLB batter would feel if they swapped out home plate umpires after every inning. Let's see...."Low strike zone"...."High strike zone"...."Nat'l League" strikes...."American League" strikes.....

"Know what I mean, Vern?"


Well said, Jeff. I like the analogy on the strike zone too. It's just hard to get behind CBS/P when there are so many inconsistencies and unnecessary Heyes insertions. And to applaud the studio for this? I just can't do it.

To add another analogy to this dilemma, Jeff, I'll use a driving one. When I drive over the speed limit I know I'm taking a chance on the police pulling me over and giving me a ticket. I did something wrong and may have to pay the consequences. That's like the Heyes insertions. It's wrong and should be called out.

But when I drive at or under the speed limit I'm only doing what I'm supposed to do. I don't have police pulling me over and giving me a lollipop and pat on the back for doing what I'm supposed to do anyhow. Yet that's what I think is happening here with these music subs. We've got people applauding CBS/Paramount for only doing what is right and expected of them. That's crazy, IMHO. To give kudos to a studio for NOT putting in more music substitutions is like a beaten and bloodied girl telling her abusive boyfriend, "Thank you for not hitting me any more than you did." It's silly and I refuse to do it.

Gary "sorry, but this second volume set is a real downer to me" O.
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post #355 of 444
4/7/09 at 4:34pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
Thanks for replying Paul, and these are the points in question I was referring to, first regarding the CBS reference.

"And the season finale, Last Second Of a Big Dream, although set in a too-familiar setting (it always seemed like CBS set at least one episode of their series each year at JungleLand),"

If this is a typo and ABC was supposed to be there, I'm glad to know that.

On the music issue I was referring to this comment:

"because series composer Pete Rugolo's underscores for those episodes were eliminated and replaced with new music cues. That evocative opening and closing theme was retained, but everything else by Rugolo, apparently, was replaced"

The point was not that I said that the "new music" as in the replacement music was identified by you as Rugolo, I was referring to the description of the original music as *all* Rugolo when the "Fugitive's" original music is a mixture of library music composed by Rugolo mixed in with CBS Library music originally composed for "Twilight Zone" etc. and other shows. Sorry that I didn't clarify that point.

Yes, that's a typo on CBS (thanks for the close read; I was also thinking of the Route 66 episode I recently watched), and you're right, that's not quite clear on my part about Rugolo's contribution (although all of his stuff was indeed yanked -- along with the other cues) I'll amend it. Thanks again!
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post #356 of 444
4/7/09 at 4:39pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I guess Gary, after going the horror of the initial S2 V1 set which had most of us thinking there'd never be anything worth seeing again of this title on DVD some of us are little more conditioned as a result of that to settle for half a loaf to a degree, although with V2 I do want to reiterate my belief that they did restoration work on this first before redoing V1 and that if that's the case we don't have to be quite as upset for the long-term picture in terms of what to expect for S3. I know that doesn't take the sting out of some S2 episodes now sounding not so good as a result of the replacements that are left in (I don't think I can ever watch "Moon Child" again after hearing the worst use of synths in any episode) but what it does mean is that we can at least still have reasonable hope that the rest of the run, if it emulates the replacement S2 V1 pattern will be okay because that set I do think was done very well with an 85-90% restoration rate by my reckoning.
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post #357 of 444
4/7/09 at 4:40pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

You're welcome Paul and I appreciate your dropping in here on that to listen to the feedback. Look forward to more reviews from you!
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post #358 of 444
4/7/09 at 7:15pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Well, I finally got S2V2 in the mail , but am waiting for my replacements, to watch first.
Has anyone watched all of Volume 2 yet and what is the percentage ratio compare to the 15-20% Heyes in Volume 1 ???

What has happened to Carab ???
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post #359 of 444
4/8/09 at 10:18pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Report on "Everybody Gets Hit In The Mouth Sometime." Music replacement much less intrusive on this one and more importantly what replacement music there was, was dialed down better. Same thing pretty much true on "May God Have Mercy" except for a couple briefer blasts in the climactic escape scene. But all-in-all these were much easier to sit through than "Moon Child" which wins my award for the worst episode in terms of music replacement (going by the ten episodes I've watched so far).
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post #360 of 444
4/9/09 at 12:58am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
Report on "Everybody Gets Hit In The Mouth Sometime." Music replacement much less intrusive on this one and more importantly what replacement music there was, was dialed down better. Same thing pretty much true on "May God Have Mercy" except for a couple briefer blasts in the climactic escape scene. But all-in-all these were much easier to sit through than "Moon Child" which wins my award for the worst episode in terms of music replacement (going by the ten episodes I've watched so far).
I only watched one episode (Netflix rental) "Everybody Gets Hit In The Mouth Sometime" and found the music annoying enough that I didn't feel the need to watch any other episodes. If you haven't seen the show in a long time these changes probably won't bother you, but if you are familiar with the show it is just not worth sitting through. Lost in all the comments is CBS was NEVER EVER going to get sued over 40 year old music cues and their lawyer just made a fuss to try and justify his salary. I'm sure he probably went around the office for days bragging about how he had just "saved" the studio millions.
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