New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2 - Page 11

post #301 of 444
4/3/09 at 5:53am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
Not in whether or not certain pop songs have been replaced. Although, even there, I do think CBS has fared poorly.

Gary "just my two cents" O.

The truth of the matter is that CBS Paramount is really inconsistent in this area. Look at "Mannix," season 1. Musical performances by both The Buffalo Springfield and Neil Diamond were left intact. Some music performances are cleared for "Happy Days," others are not. To me, that's what is maddening about CBS Paramount . . . they're inconsistent. You never know from one release to the next as to what is going to be left in or removed/replaced.
Reply
post #302 of 444
4/3/09 at 6:01am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hug
The truth of the matter is that CBS Paramount is really inconsistent in this area. Look at "Mannix," season 1. Musical performances by both The Buffalo Springfield and Neil Diamond were left intact. Some music performances are cleared for "Happy Days," others are not. To me, that's what is maddening about CBS Paramount . . . they're inconsistent. You never know from one release to the next as to what is going to be left in or removed/replaced.

Exactly, Bob! It really is maddening. And it goes to my earlier point about whether or not the liberal "medicinal" marijuana laws in California are to blame.

Gary "they (CBS/P) really don't make any sense sometimes" O.
Reply
post #303 of 444
4/3/09 at 6:05am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hug
Some music performances are cleared for "Happy Days," others are not.
It all centers on how hard-nosed (greedy, some would say) each individual music rights holder wants to be.

The CD-ROM versions of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC have been held up for eight years because two photogs are fighting for money over two photographs they say were signed as "print only releases."

Follow the money.
Reply
post #304 of 444
4/3/09 at 6:11am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Some things that needs to be considered:

The fact that THE FUGITIVE's entire backscore was redone for S2V1 (and possibly V2 as well), while it doesn't sit well with anyone here, does show that CBS/P valued the property enough to try to get it out to the public. Though the ultimate move was bone-headed in the extreme, it still showed that even though they ran into a snag, they valued THE FUGITIVE enough to commission an entire new music score.

A good number of us know the Rugolo cues backwards and forwards, having watched FUGITIVE episodes over and over throughout the years. Some others are real sharp on the TWILIGHT ZONE cues. And a few have volunteered that there are other cues like GUNSMOKE, etc., that were used in THE FUGITIVE's backscore.

CBS/Paramount likely has someone that they relied on to identify the cues in Season Two, and I don't know about anyone else, but I'm glad they didn't ask ME to go about the task of mixing new cues with old ones.

I work in radio, so I have at least some working knowledge of the mixing of audio. Just the thought of trying to go back and restoring the original music, AND AT THE SAME TIME, trying to include the new Heyes stuff in place of the alleged Capitol cues, and making it all sound coherent and whole just seems impossible to me.

So the fact that at times, when it sounds seamless, I just have to marvel at it. Am I happy that this situation occured? No. Would I rather have the show as it aired in 1964-5? Sure. Is that likely to happen in the near future? Probably not.

I have a little theory about "Why this CBS cue here, and the same cue not there?" One thing one has to remember is that the music cues are not just sections of music that get plopped in. Most times, they need to fit the video portion - AND - to fit with the other cues that were fit in.

I'm sure many can hear when little snippets of familiar music get pared down to fit the scene, and when two different cues get mashed together seamlessly.

My little theory is that in some of these cases, where a TZ or Rugolo cue is missing, it might have been an edited version, or one that mashed up against or mixed in with another cue. In that case, mixing the new and old would sound really out of place, so CBS/P's music editors chose to use all new music in its place, giving some of that "seamless experience" they mentioned.

Way, way back, last year when this all blew up, most of us agreed and stated that the Rugolo cues were the heart and soul of the series and that had been ripped away. Well, CBS/Paramount did what I'd estimate, IMHO, to be a pretty good job of getting that heart and soul back into the series.

Yes, there are still some annoying sequences, but I for one am reasonably happy that I can now enjoy the episodes in DVD format, and I always try to look on the positives in life.

Harry
Reply
post #305 of 444
4/3/09 at 6:19am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
...the Rugolo cues were the heart and soul of the series and...CBS/Paramount did what I'd estimate, IMHO, to be a pretty good job of getting that heart and soul back into the series.
Amen!
Reply
post #306 of 444
4/3/09 at 8:19am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Given the replacement music, CBS/Paramount doesn't even make any attempts to make it sound like the period. Instead they use ugly synthesizers. If they had recorded the music with an orchestra, it would have sounded better.
Reply
post #307 of 444
4/3/09 at 10:02am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I'm assuming the synthesizer route was much cheaper and done by one individual. But you are right it probably would have sounded better if done by an orchestra.
Reply
post #308 of 444
4/3/09 at 10:41am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithb
I'm assuming the synthesizer route was much cheaper and done by one individual. But you are right it probably would have sounded better if done by an orchestra.
Right on both counts!
Synth = $
Orchestra = $$

Plus, as a former studio keyboardist, I can tell you it takes more than just a room full of instrument players to crank out stingers, cues, segues and codas.
It takes fine instrumentalists under the direction of a skilled arranger. = $$$

That's why all the original music (that we know and love and miss) was used and reused from TV show to TV show.

Reply
post #309 of 444
4/3/09 at 7:15pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Well, my prediction has, indeed, come true.

S2, V2 came ahead of my S2, V1 replacement set.

This coming Monday will be four weeks since submitting my replacement form to CBS/Paramount.

Only two weeks to go before the six-week deadline passes.

I predict, at this rate...I'll still be waiting.

Oh well, until then...it is on to S2, V2 FWIW.
Reply
post #310 of 444
4/3/09 at 9:12pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

From the official Replacement Disc form...

"In the event that consumers do not receive their replacement discs within the allotted time, or if they would like to follow up on their order, they may email: PHE.Fugitive@bydeluxe.com"

Reply
post #311 of 444
4/4/09 at 3:52pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Today I watched "Brass Ring". It's been a long time since I watched that episode, and I'd forgotten most of the story's details and how good the episode was.

I have to say that the music issue does indeed reach near-ugly proportions. I really don't care about the merry-go-round music, other than it sounded a bit loud and not authentic. If the very same composition had been performed on a real calliope - or at least SOUNDED like it was authentic, I would have no problems with it at all.

The Rugolo cues were there but sparsely used in an episode where the carnival atmosphere of the pier dominates the action. And there were some ugly moments of replacement music during some of the action scenes. The only times it took me out of the story was when it was mixed too loudly into the scene.

Still a great episode - kudos to Angie Dickenson and Robert Duvall for their superb turns as Norma and Leslie Sessions.

Harry
Reply
post #312 of 444
4/5/09 at 7:41am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

So The Fugitive, Season 2, Volume 2 does not revert back to the form of The Fugitive, Season 1, Volume 2, where replacement music was hardly noticeable at all. It's a big disappointment. Hopefully, Season 3 will revert back; that'll be the real test.

But again, that we can't hear a series of this stature the way it was originally meant to be heard is an abomination. Hopefully, one day, they'll reissue The Fugitive as a complete series in a definitive edition with all the original music intact. If anybody from CBS/Paramount is reading this, it'll be a great gimmick, practically ensuring big sales for the complete series box set!
Reply
post #313 of 444
4/5/09 at 9:08am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
So The Fugitive, Season 2, Volume 2 does not revert back to the form of The Fugitive, Season 1, Volume 2, where replacement music was hardly noticeable at all. It's a big disappointment. Hopefully, Season 3 will revert back; that'll be the real test.

But again, that we can't hear a series of this stature the way it was originally meant to be heard is an abomination. Hopefully, one day, they'll reissue The Fugitive as a complete series in a definitive edition with all the original music intact. If anybody from CBS/Paramount is reading this, it'll be a great gimmick, practically ensuring big sales for the complete series box set!

I have written CBS/Paramount not long ago asking for what you have just suggested. I also thought it is a good idea and given their track record of issuing complete sets once they have released them in individual sets, and also including extras the individual sets did not have, I hope this is the route they will take with The Fugiive. I also asked them to make sure that they take special note of "Ill Wind" and the song written for and composed for that episode for their season 3 release.

If we remember, when this all first happened CBS/Paramount stated that the reason Season 2 was not like Season 1 was due to the fact the music placement sheets were jumbled and not arranged like they should have been like Season 1 was. Hopefully the powers that be at the time compiled Season 3 and 4 sheets like Season 1.
Reply
post #314 of 444
4/5/09 at 11:26am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
From the official Replacement Disc form...

"In the event that consumers do not receive their replacement discs within the allotted time, or if they would like to follow up on their order, they may email: PHE.Fugitive@bydeluxe.com"

Thanks, Oz. I'll drop 'em a line tomorrow!!!!!!
Reply
post #315 of 444
4/5/09 at 11:41am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
Hopefully, one day, they'll reissue The Fugitive as a complete series in a definitive edition with all the original music intact. If anybody from CBS/Paramount is reading this, it'll be a great gimmick, practically ensuring big sales for the complete series box set!
I think the only thing that will guarantee is an absolutely irate response from the people who have already bought the individual sets that have portions of the music replaced.
Reply
post #316 of 444
4/5/09 at 1:07pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
I think the only thing that will guarantee is an absolutely irate response from the people who have already bought the individual sets that have portions of the music replaced.
That's for sure!

Unfortunately, the chances of a Fugitive box set with all the music restored to its original pristine 1965 condition is about as likely as having a David Janssen commentary accompany each episode.
Reply
post #317 of 444
4/5/09 at 2:52pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
I always found it odd that Barry Morse wasn't asked to do some kind of cameo in the movie.

Barry Morse supposedly turned down a cameo in "The Fugitive" movie that would have portrayed him as a retired cop (possibly Sam Gerard's father) who catches sight of Kimble on a busy Chicago street. Recognizing the fugitive, he starts to chase him, but is hit by a bus before he can collar his man.
Reply
post #318 of 444
4/5/09 at 5:03pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Ouch, that would have been inappropriate! I would have more envisioned him for the judge who sentences Kimble to death, or perhaps in a reversal as Kimble's defense attorney.
Reply
post #319 of 444
4/5/09 at 5:37pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I got to hear some of the original music for "Scapegoat." The opening music that is replaced in Act II did not have to be replaced. In fact, it's usually left in. On the DVDs, it's the same music you hear open the Epilog for "The Old Man Picked a Lemon." It's a cue from Gunsmoke. Also with "Scapegoat," the opening music for Acts III and IV are also from Gunsmoke, and they are left in. It makes one wonder what's behind some of these replacements.. Maybe they were contractually obligated to Heyes to leave some of his music in; or maybe they figured they paid the guy, why not use some of his music..
Reply
post #320 of 444
4/5/09 at 6:08pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
I got to hear some of the original music for "Scapegoat." The opening music that is replaced in Act II did not have to be replaced. In fact, it's usually left in. On the DVDs, it's the same music you hear open the Epilog for "The Old Man Picked a Lemon." It's a cue from Gunsmoke. Also with "Scapegoat," the opening music for Acts III and IV are also from Gunsmoke, and they are left in. It makes one wonder what's behind some of these replacements.. Maybe they were contractually obligated to Heyes to leave some of his music in; or maybe they figured they paid the guy, why not use some of his music..


I wonder if some of the fault also lies in what CBS/Paramount said when they released their statment some time back: The music cues were messed up in a way they didn't know what went where and what didn't. They stated that the season one music sheets were intact so that was why the first season was released with the music almost 100% intact. I wish they would give us some clue as to what the season 3 and 4 sheets looked like.
Reply
post #321 of 444
4/5/09 at 6:13pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clugul
Barry Morse supposedly turned down a cameo in "The Fugitive" movie that would have portrayed him as a retired cop (possibly Sam Gerard's father) who catches sight of Kimble on a busy Chicago street. Recognizing the fugitive, he starts to chase him, but is hit by a bus before he can collar his man.


That would have been wonderful with the exception of the Mr. Morse getting hit by the bus. I would have been happy to see him chase Kimble and just end up loosing him like he did so many times in the series.
Reply
post #322 of 444
4/5/09 at 6:14pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
It makes one wonder what's behind some of these replacements.. Maybe they were contractually obligated to Heyes to leave some of his music in; or maybe they figured they paid the guy, why not use some of his music..

In all seriousness, am I the only one here that thinks this is simply a matter of the inmates are running the asylum? Come on, there is no reasonable explanation for this.

Gary "I bet it's as simple as different people working on different episodes giving us differing degrees of replacement music - at the very least it's about people not knowing enough about the music to make the correct decisions" O.
Reply
post #323 of 444
4/5/09 at 6:23pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

It's a frustrating situation that it's not all the way back to normal when it could be. There's no question but that if this was how it was all done originally and there never had been a 100% Heyes set like with V1 we would be hearing a greater level of complaints about V2. Some of us are probably at this point more conditioned to accept half a loaf and move on if our level of expertise about what originally was there isn't that high.
Reply
post #324 of 444
4/5/09 at 7:46pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
I got to hear some of the original music for "Scapegoat." The opening music that is replaced in Act II did not have to be replaced. In fact, it's usually left in. On the DVDs, it's the same music you hear open the Epilog for "The Old Man Picked a Lemon." It's a cue from Gunsmoke. Also with "Scapegoat," the opening music for Acts III and IV are also from Gunsmoke, and they are left in. It makes one wonder what's behind some of these replacements.. Maybe they were contractually obligated to Heyes to leave some of his music in; or maybe they figured they paid the guy, why not use some of his music..
My guess is that they had the cue sheets for Scapegoat but didn't have the cue sheets for The Old Man Picked A Lemon. Yes, it's the same cue but that there aren't many people on the planet (and probably zero at Paramount) that would realize that those are the same cue.

As for being contractually obligated to use Heyes' music, I can't see that ever happening. Why would a studio sign a contract where they HAVE to use a basically unknown composer's music?
Reply
post #325 of 444
4/5/09 at 8:07pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
It's a cue from Gunsmoke...
If any of the Cue Gurus here are so inclined, give a listen to GUNSMOKE Season 3 Volume 1 when you get OD'd with The Fugitive.
I could swear there is replaced music among those eps.
I base my suspicion on some of it being quite loud and intrusive, à la Heyes.

Reply
post #326 of 444
4/5/09 at 8:51pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I just finished "Scapegoat" which I have to admit has an almost schizophrenic nature to it in terms of the shifts back and forth from original to Heyes. Whereas other episodes I've seen tend to compartmentalize the old from the new fairly well (even when the new cues are more obtrusively bombastic) by spacing them apart, here it just seemed like an on/off switch at times.

Then after that I went through "Corner Of Hell" which sounds to me like it has no replacement music at all or like "The End Is But The Beginning" the most insiginificant amount of change possible. It's interesting that through six episodes I've gone through the two that are almost completely unaltered are the two where Gerard appears.
Reply
post #327 of 444
4/5/09 at 9:10pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
I just finished "Scapegoat" which I have to admit has an almost schizophrenic nature to it in terms of the shifts back and forth from original to Heyes. Whereas other episodes I've seen tend to compartmentalize the old from the new fairly well (even when the new cues are more obtrusively bombastic) by spacing them apart, here it just seemed like an on/off switch at times.

Then after that I went through "Corner Of Hell" which sounds to me like it has no replacement music at all or like "The End Is But The Beginning" the most insiginificant amount of change possible. It's interesting that through six episodes I've gone through the two that are almost completely unaltered are the two where Gerard appears.

I think the part in "Corner Of Hell", where Kimble crashes through the road block and when the police refuse to go after Kimble in the woods because they will set the woods on fire, I believe that is all Heyes
Reply
post #328 of 444
4/6/09 at 2:34am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Consider too, the ordering of events in this little CBS/Paramount drama.

June 2008, we get S2V1 full of Heyes' rescore. Complaints are loud and long, sales likely tank, CBS/P issues a vague statement, and no sign on the horizon of S2V2.

Jan 2009, we get news of S2V2 being released at the end of March, with no mention of the music situation. Everyone assumes another all-Heyes release.

That announcement was a full seven months after the S2V1 debacle, and enough time for CBS/P to have relented on the music situation, taking a "mixture" tack for S2V2 and putting it on the schedule.

Suppose now that S2V2 with its mixture approach is finished in December/January and given its street date for the end of March. Meanwhile, to stir up interest, CBS/P gives the go-ahead to apply the same "mixture" technique to S2V1 and offer them free starting in February to those who bought the earlier release.

If this is the case, then it means that S2V1's fixed edition was done AFTER S2V2 was already in the can. That means that by the time they worked on S2V1, whoever was in charge of identifying cues might have had a better ear for the job, resulting in more accurate replacement tactics.

Just a theory...

Harry
Reply
post #329 of 444
4/6/09 at 4:49am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Certainly makes the most sense as far as "benign" theories go. I also would lean to the idea of how V2 likely was first done with 100% Heyes in the initial remastering and that if they worked on restoring cues in V2 before they did V1 that might account for why the results seem a bit more erratic in V2.

S3 as I've said before will be the big acid test because they will have started work on these episodes only after they finally realized the controversy they created.
Reply
post #330 of 444
4/6/09 at 7:34am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

The whole Fugitive music issue is a real fiasco. After all this, why can't they just restore the original scores? Or find someone familiar with the show to help them? It really doesn't take much to create a music expert on The Fugitive. Just watch episodes of Gunsmoke, The Twilight Zone, Outer Limits. The cues are repeated often enough that a person keeping track should recognize them easily. It seems like the people putting this together really don't watch that much classic TV, or their own show for that matter.

I also heard some of the original score of "Fun and Games and Party Favors." In Act II, the original party music that was replaced was heard at a low pitch, almost a whisper. On the DVD, it's way, way higher. It would be nice if they're replacing music to take into account how loud or soft the original is.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: TV on DVD and Blu-ray