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Originally Posted by Jack P
ZERO music replacement in "The End Is But The Beginning".
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Originally Posted by Jack P
I didn't even notice them. The whole "sound" of the episode was remarkably consistent, so if it was Heyes there, then give him credit for coming up with something in those spots that fit everything else seamlessly.
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Originally Posted by rjd0309
This misses the point.
Let's suppose that I give ice cream to two people, Mr. Heyes and Mr. Rugolo. Mr. Heyes receives a dish of plain vanilla ice cream. Mr. Rugolo receives a dish of vanilla ice cream topped with nuts, chocolate syrup, whipped cream, and a cherry. "Mister Heyes, how did you like your dessert?" "Oh, it was yummy." "Yes, but that's because you don't know what you're missing! Mister Rugolo's dessert is ten times tastier." A neophyte viewer might very well enjoy the Heyes version of Season 2. But that's not really the point, is it? They would undoubtedly find the Rugolo episodes "ten times tastier". |
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Originally Posted by smithb
CBS ... made the changes they were willing to make.
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Originally Posted by smithb
It seems fairly obvious that CBS wouldn't go to all this trouble of replacing music if there wasn't a substantial reason.
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Originally Posted by Jack P
I think there are some of us though who would question the description of Shout as a "quality" company in light of what they just did with "Rhoda".
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Originally Posted by rjd0309
This assumes that CBS actually has substantial reasons for its music replacements.
What reason would CBS have to use an original cue (one from Twilight Zone, for instance) in its proper place, and then replace that very same cue later in the same episode? Anyone want to clear that up for me? |
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Originally Posted by rjd0309
I understand that the masters were in poor condition, and that Fox could only supply Shout with syndicated versions of some episodes -- factors that were beyond Shout's control.
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Originally Posted by Jack P
It was still in their control to decide that spending money on that kind of substandard product wasn't worth doing as opposed to other titles they chose to abandon.
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Originally Posted by Jack P
If they did their best with it they wouldn't have tried to conceal the fact that 67% of the episodes were edited before an outside reviewer first broke word about it. And I believe that their not releasing the final season of "The Bill Cosby Show" because of a sob story about how much it would cost them to do so when they had the money to put out something less than worthless when it comes to a quality end product (since butchered copies of a TV show can easily be had for a fraction of the cost in the boot route) is as inexcusable as what CBS/Paramount has done with their needless waste of money on music replacement that wasn't needed in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Jack P
Your point is that Shout is a wonderful company that has done no wrong
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Originally Posted by Jack P
Um....if their record was perfect for "respecting the source material" then they would not be releasing a program with 66% edited episodes and trying to conceal that information as they did (I can quote one public posting a representative of theirs at another place where the term *complete* is used to describe the episodes).
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Originally Posted by Jack P
Shout is wonderful in contrast to evil CBS/Paramount
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Originally Posted by rjd0309
The issue is music replacement, and whether other DVD providers have done a better job than CBS at releasing musically-unaltered shows.
If The Fugitive happened to be a single case of music replacement, then it might be argued that CBS was forced to replace musical cues due to unique circumstances. But it's not a single case. Time after time after time, CBS ends up musically mutilating series after series, e.g., Gomer Pyle, The Odd Couple, My Three Sons. It might be argued that music replacement is just a fact of life when dealing with TV series from the 50s and 60s. If that were the case, then other DVD providers would be constrained to replace music, just as CBS has. But again, that's not the case. Other providers (Shout is just one example) have been able to release series after series, musically unaltered. The issue isn't "CBS = bad" and "Shout = good". That is simplistic, black-and-white thinking. The issue is whether The Fugitive might fare better, musically, if it were to be put in the hands of one of these other DVD providers. No one can positively predict what might happen, of course, but based upon the track record so far, I doubt that another DVD company would do worse than CBS, and in all likelihood would do far better. |
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Originally Posted by rjd0309
The issue is music replacement, and whether other DVD providers have done a better job than CBS at releasing musically-unaltered shows.
If The Fugitive happened to be a single case of music replacement, then it might be argued that CBS was forced to replace musical cues due to unique circumstances. But it's not a single case. Time after time after time, CBS ends up musically mutilating series after series, e.g., Gomer Pyle, The Odd Couple, My Three Sons. It might be argued that music replacement is just a fact of life when dealing with TV series from the 50s and 60s. If that were the case, then other DVD providers would be constrained to replace music, just as CBS has. But again, that's not the case. Other providers (Shout is just one example) have been able to release series after series, musically unaltered. The issue isn't "CBS = bad" and "Shout = good". That is simplistic, black-and-white thinking. The issue is whether The Fugitive might fare better, musically, if it were to be put in the hands of one of these other DVD providers. No one can positively predict what might happen, of course, but based upon the track record so far, I doubt that another DVD company would do worse than CBS, and in all likelihood would do far better. |
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Originally Posted by smithb
I'll use a statement you used earlier "speculation". In this case, whether you think CBS had cause to make these changes or not, it is all speculation at this point until further imformation is available.
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Originally Posted by rjd0309
The issue is music replacement, and whether other DVD providers have done a better job than CBS at releasing musically-unaltered shows.
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Originally Posted by Jack P
In one instance, the Heyes carnival music was actually a familar tune that I always hear at circuses (or is associated with them) and I wish I could remember the name of it (if I hummed it you'd know the one I mean) which indicated to me that Heyes in doing these new ones was free to use public domain stuff in addition to doing original stuff.
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Originally Posted by Gary OS
Brad, while I agree with you that some of the music gutting is speculation on our part ("My Three Sons" in particular because no statement was ever made), in the case of THE FUGITIVE we don't have to rely on speculation. We know the reason for the entire fiasco. As reported by Jon Burlingame in both the Film Music Society and Variety, this problem is due to a few Capitol cues that CBS/Paramount doesn't own. And since they didn't hire someone that could discern between those few Capitol cues and the CBS Library cues do they do own, they originally gutted the entire backscore. They've since gone back, after public rebuke and pressure, and restored the Rugolo cues. But the problem remains that they obviously don't have the people in place that can definitively tell them in each episode what is and is not a CBS cue (one they do own and can include) versus a Capitol cue (one they do not own and would rather leave out). But there are people that have the ear in Hollywood to do this work. Burlingame made that very clear. So I believe the fault still rests squarely on the shoulders of CBS/Paramount for doing only half a job.
Gary " yes, the new discs are better than the first ones, but they still could have been much better" O. |
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Originally Posted by Gary OS
...how CBS/P handles Season 3 (which I'm certain we will see coming in a few months). If they can return to a Season 1 template then I'll accept that Season 2 was an anomaly and just live with it. But if Season 3 shows up with the same haphazard insertion of Heyes...
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