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THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2 - Page 9

post #241 of 444
4/1/09 at 5:40pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

So here we have John and Rod, presumably with the same discs, yet coming up with different reactions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
The replacement discs for The Fugitive Season 2, Volume 1 had changes for the opening act music in only two episodes, "The Iron Maiden," Act III and "Ballad for a Ghost," Act II.

In The Fugitive, Season 2, Volume 2, the following opening act music is changed:
"Brass Ring," Acts I and III. The music being replaced is the music from the carnival.
"Fun and Games and Party Favors," Acts II, III, IV. The music being replaced is party music from the era.
"Scapegoat," Act II. It sounds synthesized, like a Heyes score.
"The Survivors," Act IV. Those synthesizers again!
"Everybody Gets Hit in the Mouth Some Time," Act III. At first, it sounded off, but upon hearing it again a few times, I think it could be original. It leads into a scene though at a dive bar where the background jukebox music definitely sounds replaced.
"May God Have Mercy," Act III. Those synthesizers again! Act II sounds a little off as well, but it might be original.
"A.P.B.," Act II. It sounds a little off to me, but it might be original.

The replacement music would flow much better within these episodes if it was recorded with something truer to the era, like an orchestra, and not those god-awful synthesizers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
SECOND TIME OUT... (whistle blows)

One each of the four S2V2 discs, I hit Play All, and chapter skipped to -every- Act and Epilog. (it's surprising, when you play them in a row, how many times the same exactly orchestrated Rugolo Fugitive theme is repeated)

Next, I used my asbestos gloves and put in the "Alternate Four-Season Fugitive Set" of the 2nd Season discs in the player.

All the Rugolo Act-opening themes are indeed in S2V2 that were originally aired. Where Acts open with other 'scene setting' music like at the carnival, in night clubs, at parties, etc., those are somewhat different in S2V2 from the original TV versions. I presume they're Heyes recreations.

Again, IMHO, this is by no means a deal-breaker.

I don't wish to preach, but after all, we could be living today with S2V1 as the final CBS/P Fugitive set released.

Not that I don't want to trust either of you, but I'll judge for myself when the discs arrive, rather than getting all bent out of shape.

Harry
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post #242 of 444
4/1/09 at 5:43pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I know why they call this a "thread"...it's wearing mighty thin!



You will see, Harry, that no Rugolo Act Intro (aka 'The Fugitive' theme) music is missing that was on the air in 1965.

As you know, not all Acts began with 'The Fugitive' theme(s).
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post #243 of 444
4/1/09 at 5:45pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
I know why they call this a "thread"...it's wearing mighty thin!

Good one!

Harry
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post #244 of 444
4/1/09 at 5:51pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I think Rod is right. For the opening act music, when the Rugolo cue was originally used, it has been retained. When the opening act music was not Rugolo, that's when it might have been changed, specifically in those Acts I mention.
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post #245 of 444
4/1/09 at 5:54pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Harry, don't forget...when you watch Disc 1, please tell me we didn't dance like that back in 1965.

ep: "Fun and Games and Party Favors"
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post #246 of 444
4/1/09 at 6:15pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
TIME OUT! Please.

S2V2 is virtually the same as the replacement S2V1.

The Rugolo Act opens are there, if they were in the original airing.

"Brass Ring" opens with carnival music (be it Heyes or otherwise) in all but either Act IV or the Epilog...which as Harry said is normal. As the seasons progressed, there were plot teasers added at the beginning of the shows, and not all shows had Acts opening with the familiar theme.

Regarding the Party episode (Harry, did we really dance like that in 1965? Please tell me we didn't!), that 'garage scene' has new Heyes music, but it luckily even slightly rips off the first two notes of the Rugolo Fugitive theme...and, IMHO is certainly not a deal-breaker. It's OK, even though there's only faint party music in the background in the original TV airing.

I'll be glad when everyone gets their copy of S2V2 and all the crying "Wolf!" stops. A lot of folks here, without their DVDs yet, are getting upset unnecessarily.

The world is full of crepe-hangers who love to alarm everyone with bad news. Let's try to avoid that here at HTF.

Just saying.


I think if they had used the party music in the background in the garage area like the original bordcast version instead of the inserting the Heyes theme like music, it would have flowed much better. I can't say that they replaced music in this section where there was none because my bootleg copy has party music, be it faint, playing in the background in the entire garage scene. Paramount replaced half of the music with Heyes, and the other half with party replacement music. Not really a disater in my book, but it does stand out like a sore thumb. I really think this is an oversite on the part of Paramount and hopefully we can get them to take a look into this and fix this DVD with a replacement. What should have been playing in this scene, if anything, is nothing but party music.

Is everybody willing to send a letter or contact Paramount like we did before and see if they will look into this and offer a possible replacement? I am more than willing to compose a letter for everyone to copy if you want.
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post #247 of 444
4/1/09 at 6:46pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

When it comes to who was in charge of actually making the music subs I have but two words: CRACK MONKEYS. Seriously, it makes about as much sense as anything else.

Gary "I'll enjoy as many episodes as I can with these sets, and the rest will simply get skipped in favor of alternate episodes where there is no mutilation" O.
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post #248 of 444
4/1/09 at 7:13pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLKINSER
Is everybody willing to send a letter or contact Paramount like we did before and see if they will look into this and offer a possible replacement?

Surely you jest!
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post #249 of 444
4/1/09 at 7:34pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
Surely you jest!

It worked once before.
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post #250 of 444
4/1/09 at 8:08pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

S2V2 has Mark Heyes music used liberally throughout all of the discs,however his name has been omitted from the end credits...CBS/Paramount certainly works in mysterious ways!
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post #251 of 444
4/1/09 at 8:41pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

ZERO music replacement in "The End Is But The Beginning".

An interesting trivia note is that guest stars Andrew Duggan and Barbara Barrie would play husband and wife as Dwight and Mamie Eisenhower in the "Backstairs At The White House" miniseries fifteen years later.
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post #252 of 444
4/1/09 at 8:58pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
ZERO music replacement in "The End Is But The Beginning".

An interesting trivia note is that guest stars Andrew Duggan and Barbara Barrie would play husband and wife as Dwight and Mamie Eisenhower in the "Backstairs At The White House" miniseries fifteen years later.

Here is another triva note from "The End Is But The Beginning" When Kimble goes backs to his hotel room, he hides around a corner un-noticed as a man and woman pass him in the hallway. The woman is David Janssens mother.
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post #253 of 444
4/1/09 at 9:12pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Folks, before this gets out of hand with S2V2 complaints...

It would be best for all of us to realize that the DVDs released today are the replacement discs of Season 2 Volume 2.

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post #254 of 444
4/1/09 at 9:17pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLKINSER
...The woman is David Janssens mother.
Good catch!

Don't forget, she also had a small role in the 1993 film "The Fugitive" starring Harrison Ford.

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post #255 of 444
4/1/09 at 9:19pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I always found it odd that Barry Morse wasn't asked to do some kind of cameo in the movie.
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post #256 of 444
4/1/09 at 9:46pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
Good catch!

Don't forget, she also had a small role in the 1993 film "The Fugitive" starring Harrison Ford.

I have heard that. Where is she at in the movie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
I always found it odd that Barry Morse wasn't asked to do some kind of cameo in the movie.


Me too! Possibly play Kimbles dad in a segment or Gerards dad
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post #257 of 444
4/1/09 at 9:51pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
When it comes to who was in charge of actually making the music subs I have but two words: CRACK MONKEYS. Seriously, it makes about as much sense as anything else.

Gary "I'll enjoy as many episodes as I can with these sets, and the rest will simply get skipped in favor of alternate episodes where there is no mutilation" O.


Maybe someday in the future a different studio like Shout! may take a stab at The Fugitive and release them intact: Music and film!
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post #258 of 444
4/1/09 at 10:17pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLKINSER
I have heard that. Where is she at in the movie?
Berniece played a court reporter who attends the trial. She passed away two years later, in 1995, at the age of 85.
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post #259 of 444
4/2/09 at 7:37am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Dr. Kimble and the SSRN Seaview have apparently been sighted in my hometown post office as of 4:58 this morning. Delivery could happen today!

As for dancing styles in 1965, don't blame me. I wasn't exactly a trendsetter!

Harry
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post #260 of 444
4/2/09 at 9:58am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
ZERO music replacement in "The End Is But The Beginning".

Good. That is a great episode.

Does anybody know about "Nicest Fella You'd Ever Want to Meet"?

Dave
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post #261 of 444
4/2/09 at 10:27am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Allow me to propose a hypothetical situation for which I would appreciate responses (not that I would have to ask for them).

Let's say that the S2V1 re-release from CBS/P came out in that form the first time (in other words the replacement version) and that Mark Heyes and the other two musicians names were not in the credits (just Peter Rugolo) and therefore no one was aware of where any replacement cues came from. And then S2V2 comes out as just released this week.

Does anyone think under that scenario there would be this much scrutiny of every replaced piece of music in the episodes? Certainly the Heyes name would not be coming up.

While I am happy with the re-released S2V1 and the new S2V2 and feel that some of the criticism is justified, I tend to think that the S2V1 mess the first time around has put a negative spin on what would otherwise have been acceptable releases. Am I wrong?
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post #262 of 444
4/2/09 at 10:44am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary16
...the S2V1 re-release from CBS/P came out in that form the first time (in other words the replacement version) and that Mark Heyes and the other two musicians names were not in the credits (just Peter Rugolo)...
The missing Fugitive "Theme" music opening the Acts and Epilogues was the glaring change in S2V1 that alerted everyone to trouble ahead.

All but the Almighty Curators of Cues might have missed most of the other music changes had they not been synthesized and glaringly loud.

I say that with all due respect to the Cue Curators among us.
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post #263 of 444
4/2/09 at 11:54am

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Can anyone tell me how much music replacement there is in "Nicest Fella You'd Ever Want to Meet"?

Thanks,

Dave
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post #264 of 444
4/2/09 at 12:03pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

I'm watching it right now and clear replacement pops in at the 15 minute mark in the whole scene that culminates in Pat Hingle commiting his act of murder and closing out Act I. Then for the beginning of Act II right afterwards we're back to a traditional Rugolo cue.
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post #265 of 444
4/2/09 at 12:04pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary16
Does anyone think under that scenario there would be this much scrutiny of every replaced piece of music in the episodes? Certainly the Heyes name would not be coming up.

I think there would be just as much outrage as there is currently. If S2V1 came out as it is with the replacement discs, eventually someone would have gotten the word out here or elsewhere that a music cue was altered.

Remember, even in the Season One threads, people were obsessing about dance-band music and radio/jukebox background music being changed. That act alone had people'd sensibilities heightened to look out for problems.

Let's face it, "problems" are what this place is all about. When a release comes out and everything's perfect, there's very little discussion about it. You get an announcement thread, a review thread maybe, and an "I got mine" thread, with a few "Nice job, XXX Comapny" posts. Then it disappears into history until the thing goes out of print and someone revives a four-year old thread to say that he can't find it.

Nearly every release has some problem somewhere along the line, and people love to find it and post about it. So, with Season One's history, people would have been LOOKING for music problems in Season Two, and they would have found big ones.

There would have been just as much hand-wringing as there was with the total replacement discs, except that some people would have hung onto their purchases and learned to live with the replacement music, rather than returning the sets.

Now, with Volume 2, it sounds like much the same, so the dissatisfied among us would complain just as loudly as they are now.

So bottom line, I don't know if the replacement program and the way things turned out helped or hurted the overall view of CBS/P in the eyes of fans.

Harry
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post #266 of 444
4/2/09 at 12:12pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
I'm watching it right now and clear replacement pops in at the 15 minute mark in the whole scene that culminates in Pat Hingle commiting his act of murder and closing out Act I. Then for the beginning of Act II right afterwards we're back to a traditional Rugolo cue.

Thanks!

Dave
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post #267 of 444
4/2/09 at 12:26pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary16
While I am happy with the re-released S2V1 and the new S2V2 and feel that some of the criticism is justified, I tend to think that the S2V1 mess the first time around has put a negative spin on what would otherwise have been acceptable releases. Am I wrong?

Gary, just imo, but I don't think that it has put much of a negative spin on things. Speaking as a 1st-time viewer of this show on DVD, in almost every case I along with my Mom, who is a retired music teacher with a degree in music, have been able to identify the Heyes cues and all have been intrusive to the show and affect the scenes of the show in a negative way.

The way I see the music substitution issue is that we as consumers should not have to accept editing of a show of this caliber when we're paying for studio releases. I understand the legal concerns from the view of CBS/P, but as Gary OS and others here have mentioned numerous times, the inconsistancy of the music replacements (ie, some CBS library cues left intact while others have been replaced) begs for explanation when its done with a show that arguably was the best drama produced on American TV.

As Gary OS posted earlier, I have opted to view my alternate set for certain episodes (ie "Ballad for a Ghost) where, imo, the music replacement amounts get to a point of being overly intrusive to the episode in question.

Just speaking for myself, if CBS/P releases S3 in the same mode as the S1 sets, I'll consider the issue resolved and be very satisfied with CBS/P regarding their Fugitive releases. I honestly don't consider this as asking too much from a studio release of a show in what many consider to be in a class by itself.

Having said all of that , I have found that the restored S2V1 set to be adequate but not completely satisfactory. The one scene that, imo, the Heyes replacement music damaged the show was in the courtroom scene in "Man on a String". I haven't viewed all of the restored S2V1 eps yet, as I was viewing the show with my alternate set since we didn't know the status of the CBS/P releases of the series until the restored S2V1 release and the recent indications of the HD remastering progress from the CBS Syndication Bible site.

I understand some of the issues other members have regarding the perception of excessive negative posts with the music subs, but it's interesting, to me, that in my case, I had not previously seen this show and I have found the Heyes subs to be a problem. That's one view from a Fugitive-music rookie.
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post #268 of 444
4/2/09 at 12:34pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

The chase music for Act IV in this episode as Hingle pursues Kimble is also clearly Heyes. It's reached a point where even if I don't recognize a TZ cue, I now have an ear for knowing if the sound recording quality is early 60s or recent. The climactic music for this Act when Dabney Coleman arrives though is clearly original so that's two scenes amounting to about 3-4 minutes.

One oddity is that the end credits cut off the theme music before its end in this episode. I'm going to assume that was the case on the originale pisode though.
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post #269 of 444
4/2/09 at 2:10pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Willis
I understand some of the issues other members have regarding the perception of excessive negative posts with the music subs, but it's interesting, to me, that in my case, I had not previously seen this show and I have found the Heyes subs to be a problem. That's one view from a Fugitive-music rookie.

Ahh...but were you aware of all the concerns about music replacements and the style of the replacements before you watched any of season 2? It could be that even though you are a first time watcher that you were already jaded to the release before attempting to watch it.

I have yet to watch any of the Fugitive even though I just received all of season one and have S2V1 on the way. While I am glad to have found out about the replacement set for S2V1, I'm also a bit disappointed in that I don't want to take the negativity of the music replacements into my viewing unecessarily. I have a ton of new material to watch based on several recent purchases, so I will probably put the Fugitive on the back burner until at least season 3 is released and hope I can go in with a fresh take.

It would be interesting to find out how season 2 is perceived by first time viewer that know nothing about the music replacements. If not the original S2V1 release, the replacement disks.
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post #270 of 444
4/2/09 at 2:34pm

Re: THE FUGITIVE - Season 2 Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithb
It would be interesting to find out how season 2 is perceived by first time viewer that know nothing about the music replacements.

This misses the point.

Let's suppose that I give ice cream to two people, Mr. Heyes and Mr. Rugolo.

Mr. Heyes receives a dish of plain vanilla ice cream.

Mr. Rugolo receives a dish of vanilla ice cream topped with nuts, chocolate syrup, whipped cream, and a cherry.

"Mister Heyes, how did you like your dessert?"

"Oh, it was yummy."

"Yes, but that's because you don't know what you're missing! Mister Rugolo's dessert is ten times tastier."

A neophyte viewer might very well enjoy the Heyes version of Season 2. But that's not really the point, is it? They would undoubtedly find the Rugolo episodes "ten times tastier".
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