*** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

I was also reminded of Forrest Gump during the film, the combat sequence was intense and scary.
I've been near combat and was very impressed by the sound in Gump.
It was nominated for Best Sound and Best Sound Effects Editing.
During the pre-Oscar talk that year I recall someone sneering about those nominations, but, I thought they were richly deserved.
Since all those films had in common was Eric Roth, this was just good luck.
Another memory the film brought to mind was a book I first read over 50 years ago, The Door Into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein.
The romance with an age problem, that would be "corrected" later, made a big impression on me.
The Curious Case Of Benjamin Button was a treasure for me, locations, makeup. costumes, music, actors, writing.
I'll be suggesting this to friends.

BTW..met a co-worker in front of the theater after the movie. He was going on about the computer effects and how they had made "Brad Pitt look so small".
I'll think I should just let that bit of Hollywood magic remain a mystery.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Review Thread

i just have to remind ya'll that whenever a Fincher film comes out, there's always a lot of initial complaints about this and that... but when the movie makes its transition to home media and many have had several chances to watch his films 2 or 3 or more times, they will see his genius.

i didn't watch se7en, the game or alien3 in the cinema, but i did watch fight club opening night and 2nd time. it was extremely profound then, very impactful. but it was criticized when it opened initially and consequently found a large audience on home video and now it's a "classic" per se. i think it was a similar path with se7en, the game.

it certainly was the same with panic room and zodiac. lots of unrestrained complaints upon INITIAL viewing. people just don't sit back and THINK about it and review it any longer. they just talk about their initial reactions and think that's that.

curious case will also see similar adaptions (so to speak) to audience on home video. fincher has stated in interviews that he wants to make films that endure (classics, really). and so far, he hasn't turned back on his promises.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Wasn't he supposed to grow bigger, or at the very least reach a certain height and not grow back into a baby towards the end? It seems like a major screw up in the script, which isn't that good to begin with.

I thought it was a slightly above average movie. Fine special effects, makeup, art direction, and cinematrography; that's where the movie excels but it's too bad the rest wasn't as great.

The acting was very good, but Pitt and Blanchett felt souless. And I think as a result, I didn't care very much about these characters. A love story like this should make you want to see these two come together at some point, but the actors felt a little cold and the script had one too many false encounters before they finally connected in the middle. And jeez, they seem to care nothing more than just having sex with each other the whole time they were together. I felt Benjamin and Swinton's character had better chemistry and had a better love story than with Benjamin and Daisy.

The movie could've been trimmed by half an hour or so. Lots of characters appeared and didn't add much to Benjamin's life experience, or they were done so in a very obvious and stagey manner.

~T

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

The film felt hollow to me. I was ready for an epic love story about life and death. The characters and performances were bland and I didn't feel much of anything for these characters.
A major disappointment.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Review Thread

I disagree. If anything, his films fall apart after multiple viewings. Fincher is an incredible technician, but he's a pretty lousy storyteller. Films such as "Fight Club", "The Game" and especially "Benjamin Button" fall apart if you think about them too much. The sheer number of contrivances in both "Fight Club" and "The Game" to make those plots work strains credibility. If people are spending time punching holes in the plot, they'll never bother to dissect the film's themes.

When he's given a solid script like "Seven" or "Zodiac" he can deliver, but if he's asked to work on the story he fumbles, which was the case with "Benjamin Button." It's just lifeless (and I've already gone over the glaring siilarities to "Forrest Gump" in the review thread) and far too long. Again, technically it's flawless - but emotionally it's flat.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

I haven't seen Panic Room and Zodiac, but I agree with Chad saying he's an incredible technician or whatever you want to call it, and a lousy storyteller.

~T

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

to each his own. many have said the same of spielberg as well . time will tell.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Zodiac is a brilliant story, brilliantly told. I agree that Fincher is an extraordinary technician, but I think he is a better-than-average storyteller.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Steve Spielberg can tell a story with a shitty screenplay (Indy 4).

I love Curious Case btw.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

many of these thoughts were similar sentiments of people talking about spielberg pre-schindler's list... then that film happened... then saving private ryan.... =P. so when fincher gets his schindler and ryan, we'll talk then

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Review Thread

Just as I've gone over, in the review thread, the reasons why they're only "similar" on the surface. In fact, it's the differences that are glaring.

As for the film being "lifeless" and emotionally "flat", I respect your view, but if you've revisited the review thread, you must know that a lot of people don't share it.

You should see those two before you make up your mind. I'll admit, though, that it took me two viewings of Zodiac to appreciate it. (I only needed one for BB.)

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Even if he was great with Zodiac and Panic Room, I still wouldn't call him a great storyteller since those are only two among several he's done.

~T

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Well, that's progress, of sorts. You've gone from "lousy storyteller" to not a "great" storyteller.

Seriously, though: We just disagree. I think that Se7en, The Game, Fight Club and, as previously noted, BB are compelling and well-told stories. Obviously not conventional in the telling, but each one has kept my attention, and deepened my appreciation, through multiple viewings.

(Alien3 is a special case, because Fincher didn't have creative control. But I've always liked the film, and the extended cut released with the Quadrilogy set suggests what might have been if he'd been allowed to tell the story as he wanted.)

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I think you are exactly right, Michael. To me, the signature feel of Fincher's movies, in tandem with his expert eye and knack for finding and telling compelling, interesting and inherently intriguing movies is among the very best working today. I don't think there is a misstep in his library of films, but his storytelling has matured and become remarkably solid. His pace has slowed but I think it adds time to savor the moments in the film and provides more time for truly great performances to resonate.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

u compare him to every other director working today. the qty of films that others make is a lot more... but quality suffers. fincher's QUALITY is awesome on all his works. similar to kubrick's worth ethics.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Separate from the Fincher discussion.

I expect this film will win the VFX award for 2008, and I think it absolutely should. I read my first Cinefex article in ages to get a feel for what was done in Button, and it simply made me excited for whatever special edition Button gets in a few months.

I'm looking forward to another viewing of the film itself, but that will probably have to wait until home viewing.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Again, hate to disagree with you, but Spielberg first major film, JAWS, was nominated for an academy award, and then the same for Close Encounters, Raiders, E.T., The Color Purple; in short he's always been hailed as a fantastic storyteller. The biggest complaint towards him for most of the 80s was a tendency to be over sentimental - but he's always been hailed as an incredible storyteller and embraced by both critics and audiences.


Huh, I just looked at your thoughts over there. I think their similarities are far more than cosmetic. Structurally they are almost identical, and thematically they are very similar. Thematically they are both about the importance of family, the importance of roots, history, fatherhood and forgiveness.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

1) I love Spielberg as much as the next guy but he's never tackled material like Seven or Fight Club. I trust Fincher at least as much as I trust Spielberg in terms of telling a story. Spielberg is stronger at some things, but Fincher is stronger at others.

2) I don't think that the themes you list are the themes of Button (and some aren't even Gump). I believe Button's themes are more relevant to understanding where you have been and what love means.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

I'm not sure at what level of generality you're talking about "structure". Are we talking about tracing a person's life from childhood to adulthood? If so, Gump and BB do share the same structure, but they also share it with David Copperfield, Great Expectations, Portnoy's Complaint and dozens of other fictional works. It's one of the most commonly used narratives in western storytelling, and saying that two films share it is about as meaningful as saying that they're both in Cinemascope.

Now, if we're talking more specifically about narrative strategy, Gump, like BB, does allow the protagonist to narrate the story. But in Gump, it's Forrest talking to strangers, and in an important narrative shift late in the film, he ceases to narrate his life and goes to see Jenny. That's when he meets his son, and if there's a moment in Forrest's life when he really changes, that's it. The move from narrating to direct action underlines the change.

BB is narrated by two people: one dead and one dying. Both of them are beyond change, but their audience is not -- and it's a very specific audience of one: their daughter. Her entire life is upended and spun around, and she's the one who's left to make sense of what she's learned.

Now maybe all you see is similarities in those narrative strategies -- certainly the ease with which you ignored all the differences I listed in my review suggests so -- but I see differences that are substantive and meaningful and those, together with the utterly different source materials and directorial styles, add up to a unique and original work. I don't expect to persuade you of that, but by the same token, you're not going to persuade me that what I experienced sitting in the theater was a mistake or a delusion. (Besides, as the review thread indicates, I'm not the only one.)

Again, by operating at such a high level of generality, you've encompassed much of western narrative art, but without saying much. I was about to agree with Chuck that these aren't really the themes of BB, but they're so abstract that I could probably stretch to find them in the film. I could also find them in Shakespeare, O'Neill, Welles and Kubrick without working too hard at it. Would that prove that both Gump and BB are knock-offs? Hardly.

So, if BB is nominated for Best Picture and Fincher for Best Director, both of which appear likely in light of the DGA and PGA nominations, will that raise it in your estimation?

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

Agree - After the experience of the theater cut and it's broken delivery, the extended and it's documentary really give you the impression something was there. The studio cut him at the knees so many times, it's amazing anything made it to the screen. There are fantastic sections in the film, mixed with takes that were obviously not finished (even in the theater version)
You can smell the studio shutting the project down at every turn.

I can see why many think Button is flat. The distance in emotion is there for a purpose, and it's not to please everyone in a generic sense.

Comparisons to Kubrick are not far off the mark, but it's a little early in a career. No one will ever have the time Kubrick was allowed to work on a single project.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

No, I'm talking about specific instances at specific turning points that move the plot/character forward. Such as Benjamin/Forrest choosing to "light out into the world", being rejected by their true love who's built another life while he was gone, returning home, mother dying, child being born. And whereas you could argue that they share similarities with other works of literature - these two particular films are from the same screenwriter using many of the same devices. That's probably what I find so egregious. It's not that I ignored the differences you pointed out, there are plenty otherwise the film would be a remake, but the similarities are too glaring and punctuated by complete carbon copy sequences to be ignored or forgiven.


Themes tend to be general, which is a connective tissue amongst most Western literature, but what my problem is here is the illumination of these themes through the character's revelations is basically the same. The importance of family is illuminated to both characters through being raised by strong, single mothers who die at pretty much the exact point in each characters lives and having children at the same point. Roots in that it's illuminated through a southern setting, that both characters eventually return to with their lovers after world-wide adventures. Fatherhood in that they both lack father figures (especially in Button as Mr. Weathers is given such short shrift the mention of his death is merely an afterthought) so they seek out powerful male figures (Lt. Dan and the boat captain) and eventually become uncomfortable fathers themselves.

Probably not. But I was really just pointing out the comparison doesn't fit the point. I can't recall anyone leveling those claims at Spielberg who's always been embraced by critics and audiences alike. JediFonger's argument is that Fincher has enjoyed cult status for so long, that now people who dismissed him will go back and judge his previous films differently. A notion I still disagree with. His film's got proper vetting when they were released.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

As I said in the review thread, I have no problem with novelists, filmmakers or screenwriters exploring the same themes in multiple works, as long as they keep it interesting. Shakespeare did it, and just so that I'm not accused of using the all-purpose example, so did Dickens, Hemingway, Philip Roth, Hitchcock and yes, Spielberg.

Yes you have, and it's apparent that you and I have very different understandings of Forrest Gump. To me it is the essence of that film that it portrays a turbulent time in American history through the eyes of a man who was unchanged by it. (Indeed, that's what certain critics found so objectionable; they didn't like seeing their beloved 60s "belittled", which I don't think the film did, but never mind.) To me, the essential difference in the relationship between the two protagonists and the world -- active vs. passive, changing vs. unchanging (except for the one change in Forrest I have previously noted) -- is so central to the two stories that it informs everything else and renders secondary any other similarity you may care to point out. That's why I only fleetingly thought of Gump when sitting in the theater at BB. Even the hummingbird/feather comparison only occurred to me later.

I hate limiting narratives, but if I were forced to choose, I'd say that Gump was about love, mostly unrequited love. I feel somewhat confident in saying this, because I'm repeating what Robert Zemeckis said when the film was released. The narrative of Gump resolves when the (mostly) unrequited love of Forrest for Jenny becomes the shared love between Forrest and their son.

BB is about mortality and, more specifically, about how the experience of mortality shapes our experience of the world. The narrative resolves when Caroline, having received the full knowledge from both parents of everything they learned from their very different journeys through mortality, is left with the question of what to do with the rest of her life -- the same question that the film poses to the viewer.

With respect to the Oscar nominations, I was just giving you a hard time for using Spielberg's awards credits as a seal of approval. Probably the only thing on which we can agree is that the comparison between Spielberg and Fincher is inapt. Fincher has never aspired to be a populist entertainer, although he sometimes succeeds in being one anyway. It appears that BB will be one of those times.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

So my wife and I revisited BB on blu-ray last night (second viewing for both) and both of us were completely mesmerized. I thought this was a great film on first viewing, and believe it to be a masterpiece now. Bravo!

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

I watched it again about 2 weeks ago and had the same reaction.

Re: *** Official THE CURIOUS CASE OF BENJAMIN BUTTON Discussion Thread

^same. i'd zip around scenes in Blu-Ray. did u guys notice all of the clocks placed in the film? yeah kind of hammering the message home. but then there are more subtle references like the hummingbird or time-related stuff in various scenes. it's very densely packed per usual fincher film