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Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

post #1 of 31
12/28/08 at 8:53am
Thread Starter 
Hello all and Happy Holidays,

Can anyone here clarify for me what are the correct aspect ratios for:

A Hard Day's Night
Help!
Let It Be

?

It appears, at least judging from the DVD, that Yellow Submarine is 1.66:1. I don't know what the offered screen formats have been for the various DVDs of the first two films, and I know that Let It Be hasn't ever been on a digital home video format, but I'm curious what it was projected at in theaters.

Anyone who can provide any information will be sent last night's holiday party leftovers. ;^)
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post #2 of 31
12/28/08 at 9:07am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

I am no expert, but IIRC, A Hard Day's Night may have been shot Academy ratio 1.37:1 but framed for 1.66:1 projection, which is how it was presented on the old Criterion LaserDisc.
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post #3 of 31
12/28/08 at 9:16am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

IMDB lists the restored ratio for A Hard Day's Night as 1.66:1 and the intended ratio as 1.75:1.

Help! as 1.75:1.

Let it Be as 1.37:1 as it was shot in 16MM.
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post #4 of 31
12/28/08 at 9:21am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

I would love to have 'Yellow Submarine' in BD. I wonder how much restoration would be needed for a top notch BD transfer. In the scope of possible releases, we might wait a long time for this one.
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post #5 of 31
12/28/08 at 9:35am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

"Yellow Submarine" was restored for both theatrical and DVD release back in 1999. The picture was cleaned up and stored on a hi-def digital transfer back then, so it shouldn't take too long for them to release it... if the surviving Beatles and their widows ever get around to it!!! It's corporate inertia and bureacratic mentality that's basically holding back The Beatles LLP from releasing the items we want out there on the hi-def consumer market!
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post #6 of 31
12/28/08 at 9:58am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

I own that 1999 "Yellow Submarine" DVD. The presentation was in a 1.66:1 aspect ratio (which I assume was its theatrical aspect ratio); but the transfer was *not* anamorphically-enhanced.

The thing is, the top and bottom framing seemed very tight in places. I would not be surprised if the animation was produced originally for the 1.33:1 aspect ratio.

So, as is, the DVD provides the "worse of both worlds": It's apparently cropped to a 1.66:1 aspect ratio; but doesn't provide the anamorphic enhancement which would be the main advantage of that type of presentation.

It is, of course, much better than nothing; and the provided transfer is better than average for a non-anamorphic DVD circa' 1999.

Still, it's more than time for an update for this title on both DVD and Blu-ray.
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post #7 of 31
12/28/08 at 10:57am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

There have been many arguments over the years about the aspect ratios of "A Hard Day's Night," "Help!" and "Yellow Submarine." I have read most opinions and evidence out there and I am convinced all three were designed for matted theatrical presentation. Consider that studios had been having theaters play "flat" films with matted apsect ratios for nearly a decade when "A Hard Day's Night" was released.

Some have suggested that "Yellow Submarine" was started as a television production and switched for theatrical before completion. Not true.

"Let It Be," however, was filmed in 16mm intended to be a television documentary, so it was optically manipulated to frame properly on a theater screen. The home video release was done from an element like this and therefore represents a heavily zoomed version of the originally filmed image. One of the hopes of fans for years is that in restoring "Let It Be," they will go back to the elements and reconstruct the film in 4:3 using the 16mm film as shot, not as conformed for theaters.
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post #8 of 31
12/29/08 at 6:19am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

1.66:1 was a very common aspect ratio for the UK (I don't know if it is still used as frequently anymore). Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that AHDN, Help!, and YS were all open matte and projected at 1.66:1. It's still a bone of contention for me over AHDN because the final "The End" head shot closing frames were presented "hard matte" in early 80's 16mm prints made from the original UA release. Believe it or not, I would prefer to see original mono optical mixes as soundtrack options on all future releases. The stereo fly-ins on AHDN are especially awkward.
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post #9 of 31
12/29/08 at 7:17am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Paynter
Believe it or not, I would prefer to see original mono optical mixes as soundtrack options on all future releases. The stereo fly-ins on AHDN are especially awkward.
Agreed! Thankfully I have recordings of the "restored" versions of "A Hard Day's Night" and "Help!" that aired on American Movie Classics what must have been about 10 years ago by now. I can't believe they didn't include the mono track on the otherwise comprehensive "Help!" DVD either.

Also, in reference to my use of "matted" before, I'm thinking this isn't technically accurate considering that might imply hard mattes on the film. "Open matte and projected at 1.66:1," as Keith says above, is the idea I was trying to get across.
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post #10 of 31
12/29/08 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

What was the stated aspect ratio on the Criterion Laserdisc of "Help!", anybody know?
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post #11 of 31
12/29/08 at 10:52am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

The Criterion Beatles laserdiscs were all full-frame (!)
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post #12 of 31
12/30/08 at 12:50am
Thread Starter 

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Oh, interesting. "pitchman" posted above that "A Hard Day's Night" was 1.66:1.
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post #13 of 31
12/30/08 at 12:50am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob LoVerde
What was the stated aspect ratio on the Criterion Laserdisc of "Help!", anybody know?
Both Beatles films from Criterion were full-frame, but my suspicion is that they just released what the owners of the films provided, which were exactly the same transfers that MPI released on VHS.
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post #14 of 31
12/30/08 at 8:28am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

A Hard Day's Night and Help! are 1.75:1, but the current DVDs open up the image slightly to 1.66:1. Yellow Submarine is probably 1.66:1, but it's not shot for 1.33:1. Let It Be and Magical Mystery Tour were shot for standard on 16mm, but LiB's 35mm theatrical release was cropped to 1.66:1 via hard-matting.

Apparently, Richard Lester approved both the 4x3 transfers of AHDN and Help!, as well as the new 16x9 versions.

Hopefully the BluRay editions will add back the original mono mixes.
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post #15 of 31
12/30/08 at 1:45pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick McCart
Yellow Submarine is probably 1.66:1, but it's not shot for 1.33:1.

Here are just a few examples from the 1999 1.66:1 AR "Yellow Submarine" DVD that indicates the "tight framing" that I alluded to in the post above:





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post #16 of 31
12/30/08 at 3:26pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Joseph,

This is a particularly enlightening thread on the correct AR for Yellow Submarine: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...idescreen.html

None of the examples you point to looks particularly tight. If what you're referring to is the cropping of characters at the top or bottom of the frame, that submission is incorrect. Directors, both animated and otherwise, have been cropping non-essential elements out of the frame for decades now.
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post #17 of 31
12/30/08 at 6:44pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob LoVerde
Oh, interesting. "pitchman" posted above that "A Hard Day's Night" was 1.66:1.
My bad. I no longer have the Criterion laserdisc but Goggle-searched the title and wound up on Wikipedia. That's where I got the (mis)information. Keith is exactly right, both the CAV and CLV Criterion discs are 1.33:1. If I thought about it at the time, I should have realized what I was typing. Heck, even my MPI DVD is full-frame! I NEVER would have unloaded the Criterion LD if it presented the film in a different aspect ratio. My recollection at the time is that the MPI was almost identical to my Criterion CLV in terms of content, so that's why I sold it. Now watch... Someone here will set me straight on that call too! Since my Pioneer combi-player died years ago, it's a moot point. All it would doing is joining the pile of other laserdiscs I can no longer play...
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post #18 of 31
12/30/08 at 9:40pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Joseph,

This is a particularly enlightening thread on the correct AR for Yellow Submarine: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...idescreen.html

None of the examples you point to looks particularly tight. If what you're referring to is the cropping of characters at the top or bottom of the frame, that submission is incorrect. Directors, both animated and otherwise, have been cropping non-essential elements out of the frame for decades now.

Thanks for the link. After reading through that thread I feel a little more comfortable now regarding the provided AR on the DVD, even if I'm still not *entirely* convinced.

One item that I think we can all agree upon is that the Widescreen presentation on the DVD should have included anamorphic enhancement. (As I recall, for some reason MGM - which held the domestic distribution rights at that time - refused to provide anamorphic enhancement for *any* of their 1.66:1 AR WS movies prior to 2000.) Let's hope that this very unique movie is afforded a state-of-the-art HD presentation whenever it's released again.
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post #19 of 31
12/30/08 at 10:39pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Maybe MGM created the 1.66:1 master by adding matting on top of the 4x3? I recall that the 4x3 transfer did not have visible cel edges like the old 1987 laserdisc/VHS edition.
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post #20 of 31
12/31/08 at 9:45am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick McCart
Maybe MGM created the 1.66:1 master by adding matting on top of the 4x3? I recall that the 4x3 transfer did not have visible cel edges like the old 1987 laserdisc/VHS edition.

I think that this is a distinct possibility.

Notice that the credits are "window-boxed" inside the 1.66:1 frame:



Also, in this frame a "Blue Meanie" is launching a missile. Due to the apparent cropping, we never actually see the missile launch:

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post #21 of 31
12/31/08 at 10:54am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
One item that I think we can all agree upon is that the Widescreen presentation on the DVD should have included anamorphic enhancement. (As I recall, for some reason MGM - which held the domestic distribution rights at that time - refused to provide anamorphic enhancement for *any* of their 1.66:1 AR WS movies prior to 2000.) Let's hope that this very unique movie is afforded a state-of-the-art HD presentation whenever it's released again.
Agreed. I have a few non-anamorphic 1.66:1 discs and besides not taking full advantage of the resolution available on DVD, these discs are a pain to zoom on my 16:9 display, since there's no variable zoom setting that would allow me to maintain all of the height of the image on either my player or my display.
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post #22 of 31
1/1/09 at 3:56am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
Also, in this frame a "Blue Meanie" is launching a missile. Due to the apparent cropping, we never actually see the missile launch
You don't see it in the old 4:3 release, either.

See: YouTube - Yellow Submarine Part 1 @ 4:48

And at 9:15, compare the credit screen to the capture earlier!
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post #23 of 31
1/1/09 at 10:19am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Miner
You don't see it in the old 4:3 release, either.

See: YouTube - Yellow Submarine Part 1 @ 4:48

And at 9:15, compare the credit screen to the capture earlier!

Derek,

Thanks for that link ... I *never* suspected that it would be possible to find large segments of the old 4:3 VHS presentation of "Yellow Submarine" up on YouTube!

And ... After closely examining that opening segment, I'm finally satisfied that 1.66:1 is the proper AR for this title. There is definitely more information available on the sides of the DVD presentation while the top and bottom are cut off in the same places on both the 1.66:1 and 4:3 versions.

Thanks again!
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post #24 of 31
1/1/09 at 11:16am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Actually, I'm taking back what I just stated in the prior post!!

After looking a little more closely at the 4:3 "Yellow Submarine" transfer, it's now apparent that the 1.66:1 DVD transfer provides more information on the sides, *but* the 4:3 transfer provides more information (in some cases a *lot* more) on the top and bottom. So now I'm *thoroughly* confused!!

Here, take a look at these identical frames:

1.66:1 from the DVD:


4:3 from YouTube (derived from the VHS release?) :
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post #25 of 31
1/1/09 at 11:38am

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Why wouldn't an animated film in a flat aspect ratio be subject to exactly the same process as a live action film? Namely, filmed open matte but intended to be masked in theatrical presentation?
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post #26 of 31
1/3/09 at 1:30pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

It happened/still happens with animated films. The Disney films of the 60's and 70's for instance. Even the CAPS ones were matted to some extent (from 1.66:1 to 1.85:1 for theaters). And when the movies were put on dvd, some folks cried foul when it had the theatrical aspect ratio, thus where matted. Some forget having OAR doesn't necessarily mean getting the most image.
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post #27 of 31
1/3/09 at 4:54pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

If you watch a lot of animated films, as I do, & study the animation process, as I have, you will discover some interesting things. One of them is that cels are often painted out beyond the intended frame line, & giving the the director flexibility in choosing which parts of the cels will be visible during the filming process.

As a result, for example, a 4:3 transfer of a film intended for a wider ratio may have "information" not visible in the theatrical ratio, but that does not make it more correct. An extreme case which I have seen is the "open-matted" version of an animated film in which the edges of "gadgets" (overlay sub-cels for moving sections) & background artwork are visible — I believe the US-release LaserDisc of Robot Carnival does this in places.
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post #28 of 31
1/4/09 at 1:14pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherDAC
If you watch a lot of animated films, as I do, & study the animation process, as I have, you will discover some interesting things. One of them is that cels are often painted out beyond the intended frame line, & giving the the director flexibility in choosing which parts of the cels will be visible during the filming process.

And there are some people out there who would like to see this entire animated picture, even though some of it was never meant to be seen.
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post #29 of 31
1/4/09 at 1:17pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Borst
And there are some people out there who would like to see this entire animated picture, even though some of it was never meant to be seen.

In the case of the 1960-1983 Disney features, I can understand it since they're generally made safe for open matte or matted.

At least more noble than the creeps who go with open matte for nudity.
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post #30 of 31
1/4/09 at 4:00pm

Re: Q re: BEATLES films aspect ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick McCart
In the case of the 1960-1983 Disney features, I can understand it since they're generally made safe for open matte or matted.

At least more noble than the creeps who go with open matte for nudity.
It wasn't the case for Disney's "Lady And The Tramp", which was shot both in 1:33 and 2:55 to 1 Cinemascope!
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