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FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Page 2

post #31 of 170
3/19/09 at 10:32am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so disappointed. This is really bad news. I guess it is what it is. I guess there is nothing that can fix this now, it's a done deal. I am having second thoughts about buying this. Maybe they can do a better job with the other seasons (if they are indeed released) I probably will buy it though. It is better than nothing at all.
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post #32 of 170
3/19/09 at 10:38am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodore J. Mooney
This is another set I plan to buy. I haven't seen this series in ages. The last time I seen it was when Nick-at-Nite aired it back in the 90's. So it is going to be a treat to watch this set. I can't wait to watch the Rhoda's Wedding episode ... that one was so hilarious.

Scratch that. I won't be buying this mess of a set. I'm better off getting a bootleg set than this.
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post #33 of 170
3/19/09 at 2:22pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm certainly disappointed, but I can't say I'm surprised. I don't say that cynically. I just don't know how anybody could expect high sales for the less popular sibling of a series that famously never sold very well. Which means things that cost real money -- searching for pristine elements, tracking down original length masters, etc. -- had to be sacrificed if there was any hope to make this a profitable endeavor. I was hoping, of course, that this wouldn't be the case. But it's easy to see how, and why, it happens.
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post #34 of 170
3/19/09 at 3:34pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The way the review describes these edits reminds me of how awkwardly bad the edits are of MTM S7 that I have seen on TV Land Canada in the past where it was the biggest hack job on a program I'd ever seen. It sounds like they just used a similar set of syndication masters prepared the same way.

I was only going to get this set if MTM complete series remains on-track but now I don't think I'm even going to get it even if MTM is released.
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post #35 of 170
3/20/09 at 9:08am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! What a major bummer. This is really a sad, sad day. While I'm still going to buy the set, I was looking forward to seeing the show complete and uncut. I only saw the show when Nik-at-Nite showed it and that is what I have on tape. I guess, like Bob Newhart Show (which I didn't find the video quality all that great either), the masters have just not been taken care of. I don't blame Shout, nor do I really blame Fox. Fox inherited the show and if this is all that there is left, then this is all that there is left. I'm not happy about this, but I'm still going to buy it becasue I'm such a huge fan of this show. But what a real bummer.
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post #36 of 170
3/20/09 at 9:29am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until we are in possession of the facts, It'd be foolish to judge (positively or negatively) either party involved (Fox or Shout!).

Unless someone knows otherwise...
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post #37 of 170
3/20/09 at 11:27am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vnisanian2001
Anytime the issue of syndicated episodes on DVD occurs, you usually mention the unedited network versions being on 3/4" inch U-matic tapes in the Library of Congress. You think Shout! Factory could have just acquired those tapes from there?

I also find it odd that Shout! can release Mr. Belvedere and Room 222 (both of which they also acquired from Fox) uncut, but not this show, which, in this case, is a mix of syndicated and network episodes.

Rhoda was shot on film, and for filmed shows up until the 1980s the production companies tended to send film prints. MTM Productions sent film prints of filmed shows (which was everything they made except WKRP) to the LoC up until 1982. Those prints will have faded by now.

The state of the negatives may have been such that putting them through a telecine without serious work may have damaged them further. That is, if there was ever any talk about remastering. Keep in mind that Fox didn't produce this show, as they did Room 222 and Mr. Belvedere. The materials for the MTM library may have been in transit at least once in their lives. The company was sold by Mary Tyler Moore to TVS of the UK, then to International Family Entertainment, which in turn was bought out by News Corporation. Anything could have happened between 1974 and today.

Shout! tends not to get the best masters, nor access to the vaults to find them, and I doubt they can afford to fund remasters. The picture quality on the first season of Punky Brewster reveals that they received not anywhere near first generation copies. They were international masters with dropouts (albeit uncut ones), and with that show's joint ownership I wouldn't know where the original 1" tapes are held. The same goes with Father Knows Best S1. They went with what was already easily accessible. For FKB it was only the outcry over cutting that led Sony to do any better on S2.
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post #38 of 170
3/20/09 at 1:36pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Rhoda was shot on film, and for filmed shows up until the 1980s the production companies tended to send film prints. MTM Productions sent film prints of filmed shows (which was everything they made except WKRP) to the LoC up until 1982. Those prints will have faded by now.

The state of the negatives may have been such that putting them through a telecine without serious work may have damaged them further. That is, if there was ever any talk about remastering. Keep in mind that Fox didn't produce this show, as they did Room 222 and Mr. Belvedere. The materials for the MTM library may have been in transit at least once in their lives. The company was sold by Mary Tyler Moore to TVS of the UK, then to International Family Entertainment, which in turn was bought out by News Corporation. Anything could have happened between 1974 and today.

Shout! tends not to get the best masters, nor access to the vaults to find them, and I doubt they can afford to fund remasters. The picture quality on the first season of Punky Brewster reveals that they received not anywhere near first generation copies. They were international masters with dropouts (albeit uncut ones), and with that show's joint ownership I wouldn't know where the original 1" tapes are held. The same goes with Father Knows Best S1. They went with what was already easily accessible. For FKB it was only the outcry over cutting that led Sony to do any better on S2.

Well, this does explain alot. Is is possible that the original masters/negatives are missing for some episodes? I know from watching Nik-at-Nite that Bob Newhart, Rhoda, Phyliss and Mary all looked rather grainy and faded. Some episodes looked worse than others, but over all none of those shows looked pristine. I was very surprised with Mary Tyler Moore when it hit DVD. The picture looked amazing. However, the Bob Newhart sets tended to have the same faded, bland look that they did on Nik-at-Nite. True, there was a marked improvement in the cleanup that Bob Newhart went through, but they weren't the quality that Mary Tyler Moore got. I don't want to lay the blame on Shout. If this is all that there is left, so be it. Shout has done a great job with That Girl and I'm very excited about Room 222 so I'd hate to ponit a finger at Shout. They may have done all that they could to get the best elements available. I'll just have to wait and see what the set actually looks like when I get it.
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post #39 of 170
3/20/09 at 4:55pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Understand that everyone is dissapointed. But isn't "some" Rhoda better than "none" Rhoda?
I've waited for this for years, and I will still pick it up. I look at it this way, in 35 years, anything could have, and probably DID happen to the masters.
Aren't some of you guys being a bit harsh?
I mean, it's not like watching "Friends" or "Seinfeld" which is on ten times a day on thirty diiferent channels.
Rhoda is definetly hard to come by.
I have some butchered/edited episodes which I recorded from TVLAND Canada, and the show is still very enjoyable to watch.
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post #40 of 170
3/20/09 at 6:22pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan*T
I Understand that everyone is dissapointed. But isn't "some" Rhoda better than "none" Rhoda?
I've waited for this for years, and I will still pick it up. I look at it this way, in 35 years, anything could have, and probably DID happen to the masters.
Aren't some of you guys being a bit harsh?
Every time a box set is released with syndicated episodes, we have this debate.

I guess it all depends on how much you enjoy the show, if you're willing to lose roughly a few episodes worth of material, and if you're just determined not to support edited shows being released on DVD.

Everyone's tolerances are different.

Sometimes, supporting a flawed first season helps (Father Knows Best). Sometimes, it's garbage in, garbage out (ALF).

I guess it all depends on how much you want this show, and if you can stomach the edits.
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post #41 of 170
3/20/09 at 9:37pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Obsolete Man
I guess it all depends on how much you want this show, and if you can stomach the edits.
Well,I've wanted this show on DVD,for a long time,but I can't stomach the edits.So,unfortunately,I won't be getting this.
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post #42 of 170
3/20/09 at 9:49pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if I were a big fan of this show, which I'm not, I would still on general principle not buy it because at the very least when I get a boot set of something I *know* the quality isn't going to be the best, but with an official release I expect higher quality unless the company is honest and upfront about why the material is in this condition. And Shout provided *no* advance warning that so many episodes would be in this condition and that makes them look just as bad as CBS/Paramount did for not informing us about the "Fugitive" music situation.
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post #43 of 170
3/20/09 at 9:55pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
Even if I were a big fan of this show, which I'm not, I would still on general principle not buy it because at the very least when I get a boot set of something I *know* the quality isn't going to be the best, but with an official release I expect higher quality unless the company is honest and upfront about why the material is in this condition. And Shout provided *no* advance warning that so many episodes would be in this condition and that makes them look just as bad as CBS/Paramount did for not informing us about the "Fugitive" music situation.

First of all, please don't mention CBS/Paramount in the same sentence as Shout! Factory. At least you don't see them hiring that talentless Mark Heyes, like CBS/Paramount does nowadays.

Secondly, they did (well, sort of) provide a warning about the episodes being in poor condition on SitcomsOnline. They also mentioned that some of episodes came from private collections, which might explain why some of the episodes turned out to be unedited, while others did not.

Even the back of the box, as noted in the review, mentioned the episodes being taken from the best possible surviving masters, and the unavoidable tape flaws on the episodes.
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post #44 of 170
3/20/09 at 10:30pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can point out one place where Shout offers any hint that there are edited episodes in a public pronouncement, by all means tell me. If there isn't, I don't feel they have a leg to stand on in terms of how they handled this. There are undoubtedly other things they've done right, but so too has CBS/Paramount done other things right (like the heads-up that "Bored, She Hung Herself" would not be in H5O S2). For me, this is their equivalent of a "Fugitive" moment for accepting such substandard material that seems to be making more people cancel their orders than be willing to accept it.
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post #45 of 170
3/21/09 at 7:05am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We truly regret the disappointment that some fans have expressed about the inclusion of some syndication masters. Our preference--always--is to use the original broadcast masters. We did extensive research into available masters for season one of "Rhoda," and we found the best--and in some cases, the only--ones that existed. When original broadcast masters are not available, we usually think it’s better to put out the show with the best ones that we can find rather than not release the show at all. However, if we determine that the syndicated versions just don’t do a show justice, then we would make the difficult decision not to release it.
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post #46 of 170
3/21/09 at 10:50am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When we're talking about 16 of 25 episodes that's not "some" syndication masters, that's an overwhelming landslide majority.
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post #47 of 170
3/21/09 at 11:22am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why was Mary treated so well and Rhoda ends up like this? Weren't they both made by MTM, originally filmed the same way, etc.

Were MTMS prints put away someplace safe while Rhoda just got lost in the shuffle? It just seems that two shows, made at the same time by the same company would get similar treatment. Same storage/archive facilities, originals left alone while dupes were sent out for syndication, whatever the process was at the time.
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post #48 of 170
3/21/09 at 11:42am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you actually bother to look for the original film elements, or are you just going by what was already on tape? Because Fox is notoriously bad about remastering pre-Simpsons, non-M*A*S*H library material...they haven't since the 1980s.
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post #49 of 170
3/21/09 at 3:19pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Did you actually bother to look for the original film elements, or are you just going by what was already on tape?

We worked directly with Fox and definitely looked for original film elements. Some were available; some weren't. It's unfortunate, we know, but the alternative, as I said, was not releasing at all, and we agreed it was still worth releasing.
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post #50 of 170
3/22/09 at 7:05am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My question would be; how are the film elements on subsequent seasons? Do they improve any? would there be less syndicated episodes? If so perhaps i could deal with S1 as is. But if the whole run is hit n miss, then i should probably pass. But, spend my money on some of Shout Factory's other great releases. Because you guys do a tremendous job. I am not going to let this stand in the way of supporting you.
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post #51 of 170
3/22/09 at 7:25am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I plan to get the release either way.
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post #52 of 170
3/22/09 at 7:27am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Rhoda does get more boxsets put out, will seasons 4 & 5 be combined since 5 was only a half season and the network didn't even all the episodes?
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post #53 of 170
3/22/09 at 7:35am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last season also had 4 previously unaired episodes added into the syndication package.
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post #54 of 170
3/22/09 at 7:50am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanfields
We worked directly with Fox and definitely looked for original film elements. Some were available; some weren't. It's unfortunate, we know, but the alternative, as I said, was not releasing at all, and we agreed it was still worth releasing.

Better to let certain titles that are stalled get more out than a new title in substandard quality get started.
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post #55 of 170
3/22/09 at 11:13am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanfields
We worked directly with Fox and definitely looked for original film elements.
I give you credit for politely responding to a post that began "Did you actually bother…" Cynicism is fine, but suggesting, with no information whatsoever, that the producers of this set acted in either utter laziness or complete contempt is just rude and completely uncalled for. Object to this release all you want, I would never say otherwise. But how about some basic civility?
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post #56 of 170
3/22/09 at 11:14am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
Better to let certain titles that are stalled get more out than a new title in substandard quality get started.
Since when does one have anything to do with the other?
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post #57 of 170
3/22/09 at 11:35am

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it's a rather elementary point that if one chooses to spend money to license a brand new title and go to the trouble of spending money to search for elements and then put it out on DVD with all the production matters related, then that is money that could easily have been spent on another title that has been abandoned already by the company.
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post #58 of 170
3/22/09 at 12:07pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P
I think it's a rather elementary point that if one chooses to spend money to license a brand new title and go to the trouble of spending money to search for elements and then put it out on DVD with all the production matters related, then that is money that could easily have been spent on another title that has been abandoned already by the company.
Okay, if it's one company. I was under the impression that Shout Factory has not abandoned many series, but I could be wrong.

But the reason a series is abandoned is because it's selling poorly. And since subsequent seasons always sell worse than previous seasons, I don't know that it's actually so "easy" to spend money on a title that will not make it back. Will a new series (such as "Rhoda") sell better? Who knows? I would doubt it, but these things frequently surprise me, and hope springs eternal. Some series have proven themselves to be unprofitable. Some have yet to do so!
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post #59 of 170
3/22/09 at 12:20pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm thinking in this case, more of one specific title abandoned by this company "The Bill Cosby Show" which needs only *one* more release to have its entire run out on DVD but they've chosen for two plus years to pull a Sony-SWAT posture on that one. The idea that they would then decide that compromised material of another title started up is a better thing to do than just *finishing* one title on DVD for the sake of those people who did shell out money for the first season (and once you have an entire run out on DVD, that might provide more incentive for others to then be willing to pick up *both* seasons) is the item that doesn't sit well with me in connection with this.
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post #60 of 170
3/22/09 at 6:16pm

Re: FINALLY.....RHODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll still be buying "Rhoda," disappointed though I am. I've only really known the syndicated version so I suppose I won't really be missing anything.

I'd also like to know if subsequent seasons will be edited.
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