Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Go to Onkyo's website and look at the specifications. You will see the receiver is rated at 100 watts PER CHANNEL. That's a total of 700 watts. You should have no issues with this receiver having plenty of power for your needs.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

The 706 has more than enough power to handle any of the speakers you mention. If you can get the SVS, I say go for it.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

And if you need more power and Bi-Amplification (like I do) step up to the SR806 130 Watts per channel x 7 channels and the ability to reassign Surround Back channels to the mains (I don't run Surr Back) I now have 260 watts going to the Left Main and 260 watts going to the Right Main.

Love my new 806

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Just so you know, Bi-Amping does not double the power. It simply sends the same 100 watts to the mids/tweeters and to the lows separately. I tried it briefly and noticed no difference. For me in my room, I'd rather have 7.1. I have about 12 feet between the listing area and the back wall.

I'm not sure what the guy on Amazon was trying to say... Maybe he has the unit in a cabinet causing the fan to turn on. He obviously doesn't have a clue about the power, so who knows...

I say go for the floor standers. When I purchased my new speakers this year I got way more than what I need for my current room. I do not plan to purchase speakers again for a very long time, so I over did it with the idea that I would eventually move them to a bigger room.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Referring to the Amazon "review"...lots of self proclaimed experts out there. Sound & Vision found *slightly* different results when they did a real bench test on the 706.

-Brent

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Very sorry to hear about the prostate problems. Hope everything works out for you.

I don't recommend putting any AVR in an enclosed area. They all get warm. Only thing to do is try it and see how warm it gets. You may be OK.

Most new AVRs will be 7.1 - even the cheap ones. You do not have to use all the channels. There are similar systems from Yamaha, Denon, and Pioneer, but they will cost a bit more then the Onkyos.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

I also think the 706 would have more than enough power, especially for a 12' X 9' room. Quite often receivers aren't setup properly causing poor performance and less than flattering reviews. I'm currently using an H/K 435 (65 wpc) in a 13' X 10' room and volume isn't a problem. It shouldn't be with the 706 either.

As for 3.1, 5.1 or 7.1 I'm using 5.1. Too me, 7.1 isn't beneficial in a room that size. It's just too small. 3.1 can be enjoyable, particularly with movies, but you will miss the surround effect on occasion. I would go with a 5.1 and pass on bi-amping. But of course, it's your call.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

David,

You are a bit confused on Bi-Amping. Do NOT confuse BiAmping with Bi-Wiring. My mains have completely seperated crossover networks, the lows have thier own network as do the mids/highs. When I enable Bi-Amp in my 806 and wire accordingly, I am, indeed, sending 130 Watts RMS to the Mids/Tweeters and 130 Watts RMS to each 10" sub. That is a total output of 260 watts RMS per main. (The math, is correct).

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

I do not miss 7.1 because I lack the room to pull it off. 5.1 sounds fantastic and I would not give my floor standers up for anything.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

I am not confused. You are sending 130 watts twice, not 260 watts once. The max you get to mid/tweeter is 130 watts, and same goes for the low range speaker. The biggest user of this power is the lower frequency, which is still only getting the 130 watts. This is PASSIVE bi-amping, which is what you get if you use the internal amps and remove the straps from the binding posts on the speakers. You have obviously went further then this and actually setup your own crossovers and your actually using external amps (I think that's what I understand you saying).

I not here to debate the merits of this, but the OP should be aware it is not as straight forward as you would have them believe. Of course it doesn't hurt to try it, and if you like it, keep it.

Here's a few articles on the subject if you are bored:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_biwir..._biamping.html

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/biamping.html

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

David,

Ohhh I just figured out we're arguing semantics! The total amount of wattage RMS going to each main speaker (total) is 260 watts. Correct that no "one" driver is getting 260 watts of power, all the drivers in each cabinet will in total, equal out to 260 watts. That's 130 watts to drive two 5.25 Midranges and a 1" tweeter, and 130 watts to drive a 10" sub woofer.

That adds up to 260 to the left, 260 to the right, total.... At any given time that number will be much less due to dynamic loading, though the sub will always consume more than the mids/tweeters.

FWIW no I did not split my networks, they came straight out of the box, intended for Bi-Amplification (not bi-wiring). Bi-wiring is useless. Bi-Amplification makes perfect sense and anyone with hearing will know the difference between powering my speakers with the straps in place and 130 watts RMS, or with the straps removed and Bi-Amped with 260 watts.

The Subs won't even move when feeding each floor stander with just 130. Send just the sub 130 and the subs jump out of the cabinet like any good sub should.


So are we in agreement yet? I've been at this for a few years and I'm fairly familiar... As you can see by my join date, post count and my post history, I did lots of posting on the DIY forums here...

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

No point in arguing - it is not possible to win. In my opinion it is not worth it. Maybe its my post count, but I'm pretty sure my opinion wouldn't change if I joined 20 years ago. Search this forum and others and you will see what I mean.

I really hate comments like "anyone with hearing". Why does it always get personal?

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Getting back to the original question (sorry for the hijack), SVS speakers and the 706 or 806 and you will smiling. Bi-amp if you want and decide for yourself if you like it. Since it seems you will want 5.1, there's nothing lost. Let us know what you decide.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

It is not a thread hijack when we are talking about particular features of a receiver that the OP wants to know about.

I want you to elaborate on "not hearing a difference". When a 130 watts is not enough to adequately drive full range floor standing speakers, an additional 130 watts for the low end section, most certainly makes a noticeable difference in both hearing and in SPL measurements (I can post data if you want). We're not arguing, we are conversing, debating at best. And it's relevant to the topic.. The OP was considering floor standers, if you are going with floor standers and can afford full range, why not...

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Brett, I don't think you clearly understand the physics behind bi-amping. There is no "additional 130 watts" available. With passive bi-amp, as done in most (all?) receivers, the amp channel you have connected to the mid/tweeter posts is still amplifying the bass frequencie, but the crossover is soaking up that signal. Likewise, the bass section is still receiving the mid/tweeter signal, but releasing it as heat in the crossover.

I would be interested in seeing your measurements, including the methodology used to guarantee a true A/B. Even if it worked the way you suggested, doubling the power will only produce a +3dB change in max SPL output. 3dB is the smallest incremental SPL change the average human can detect on complex waveforms. Under clinical conditions using pure tones, our precision drops to 1dB.

You also seem to subscribe to the theory of a given speaker, such as floor standers, "needing" more power. Don't confuse power handling with power requirements. Let's look at Polk, because they make the comparison easy. The RTiA7 tower with 2x7" woofers, 1x6.5" mid, and 1x1" tweeter is rated at 89dB@1w/1m. The bookshelf RTiA3 with a single 6.5" mid/woofer and 1" tweeter is also rated at 89db@1w/1m. Assuming Polk is being honest with their specs, if you feed both speakers the same signal power within their operating frequency range, they will produce the same SPL. The A7 can absorb more power in the low frequencies due to more and larger drivers, but they don't need more power to produce a given SPL.

Apologies, Bozobytes, as we continue to stay off course of your original question. I too, hope everything goes smoothly with your health.

-Brent

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

OK, first lets set the context for my remarks. My room is slightly bigger the the OP's room. I'm using a 100 watt Onkyo 705 to drive my Axiom M60s. They are crossed over at 80hz to allow my SVS sub to handle the low range.

Now, given my setup, I can get spl readings way above reference. I am not even beginning to stress the amp in the 705. When I bi-amped the M60's, I did not hear or measure a difference.

The OP's room is smaller than mine and the speakers he is looking at are slightly less sensitive (89db vs 84db) and the amp is more powerful. Given these facts, I'd expect to not hear any difference in his room, either.

If you have the resources and have a need to fill a very large area with sound, bi-amping with powerful external amps and external crossovers is a good way to go. For a small room with off the shelf speakers, I see no point in it.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

I do not disagree that it may not be beneficial given room dimensions. I run my setup in a 20Lx16.5W with 10' ceilings. I've used both a receiver with an outboard amp (Onk TX787 + M282) I've also used the M282 + SET Tube Monoblocks and a Halo P3, currently the SR806 BiAmped and it drives them better than the 787 + 282 ever did.

Brent,

I don't have the desire to refute your post right now.. But research the 806. When it's in BiAmp operation, it is not sending full range signals to the woofers and the high end the networks are not "soaking up" power and turning it into heat.

And I also have to say, I have my fingers crossed for you bozobytes, I wish you a quick recovery.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Now I understand the source of your confusion.

The 806 works just like my 805. I think you're interpreting the manual's instructions to connect the FR/FL amps to the low section of the speaker and the SB/SL amps to the upper section in bi-amp mode to mean there's some internal filtering going on.

Think about it for a second. Onkyo doesn't specify a frequency for this high/low crossover. As such, if there were a fixed active crossover present in the 805/806, it might be incompatible with the high/low passive crossover in an owner's speaker system since there's no universal crossover frequency or slope for splitting the mid/high and low sections.

The only technical reason I can think of for Onkyo writing the instructions that way is if the shared power supply is somehow biased to give more power to the front amps than the SB amps. This would make some sense given the spectral power demands of music and surround playback. They may have also simply done it to eliminate consumer confusion from the question of what to connect to what. OTOH, the cheap Pioneer receiver I use in my living room system actually has a sentence in in its bi-amp section saying it doesn't matter which amps go to which section of the speaker, not that I expect that to convince you of anything.

I can assure you both amp sections are receiving the exact same signal in bi-amp mode. I used bi-amp mode to compare the voicing of my SB in-walls to my front mains. In my case, I use an 805 as a prepro with a five channel amp. When I added the inwalls for 7.1, I used the 805's SB amps to drive the inwalls. Since there's nothing connected to the 805's front amps, I can drive either pair as FL/FR by the correct combination of bi-amp on/off and the main amp on/off.

Back to your view of it. With each amp receiving the same signal, it's attempting to amplify the whole signal, regardless of which section of the speaker's passive crossover it's connected to. Yes, we could split hairs that it's attempting to drive a resistance that sloping towards infinity for the out of band signals resulting in nearly zero power draw at those frequencies, but some will still be fed to the speakers. With sensitive enough equipment, you could measure the bass being produced by your mid/tweeter section and vise versa.

In a worst case scenario, you could actually get less maximum output from your woofer section in bi-amp mode than normal. Take the opening of "Also Sprach Zarathrustra". The first few seconds are a single pipe organ pedal with the fundamental right around 20hz. In normal mode, the 805 would be dedicating its full power output to the front channel amps. Now, switch to bi-amp mode and do the same test. Now, the power supply is trying to drive that 20hz signal in both front and SB amps. The SB amps will be seeing a nearly infinite resistance, but nearly is not truly infinite so there will be some minute power supply bleed to the SB amps. Since most (all?) receivers use a shared power supply that results in less power available per channel the more channels are driven simultaneously, going from 2 amps to 4 amps driven in this worst case max output test would produce measurably less power at the speaker terminals and less SPL in room.

If you want to prove both amps are reproducing the same signal to yourself, just disconnect one or the other amps from your speakers and reconnect the speaker's bridging strips while leaving the 806 in bi-amp mode. Since you've got some sort of testing suite, run some frequency sweeps to compare the front and SB amps driving your speakers full range while in bi-amp mode. If it works the way you suggest it does, there'll be a huge rolloff in frequency response at one end of the spectrum or the other if the 806 really cares which amps goes to which crossover section.

If you think bi-amp sounds better, great! That's what matters in the end in your system. We all just need to be a little careful when espousing facts that science doesn't support.

-Brent

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Brent,

I think we are more in agreement than disagreement. But there are a few points that you did not cover in your last post. I do agree about the FR FL and SBL SBR assignments, I doubt it means anything other than those binding posts are closest together on the back, to facilitate ease in Bi Amplification.

I have to disagree about power output with more channels driven. Unless Onkyo is lying to the consumer, they rate the power output at both 6Ohm and 8Ohm, Full Bandwidth, All Channels Driven. That leads me to believe that the power supply and on board capacitance, is appropriately sized so that you are actually receiving 130 watts per channel, RMS @ rated Ohm load under true dynamic loading, not just a one frequency tone. The 806 even goes as far as adding a 6 ohm / 4 Ohm software switch for impedance matching I presume.

As for filtering, again I agree with you on how a passive crossover network "works" they do absorb the signals that are filtered out and only pass the signal that it's designed for, excess power can be shed as heat through the inductors.

But, and there is always a but... My setup has me set my mains to Large, Sub Woofer to No. All low pass goes to the mains. At that point I most certainly do have Low Pass Filter control. Without getting the manual out, if I am not mistaken, I can adjust LPF from 40Hz to 120Hz. If that is the case, the woofers are NOT receiving a full bandwidth signal and that does make your argument null. If I see the pass band in the receiver, to the same pass band as my woofers, then if the receiver works like it should, a true 130 watts will make it to, and through the passive network on the sub side of the main L/R speakers.

Am I right or am I wrong on this?

Honestly I know you and Dave don't seem to believe me... Not sure why... But the fact is, my subs work in a way that they have never worked before. and I've tried all sorts of configurations in the past. I believe they are working harder due to more power to drive them and a more precise match between active and passive filter networks (I did not have this much flexibility on the 787).

Though, when the 787 was in the 806's place and I was sending a full range signal out to the 282 to power the LF side of my floor standers, I still didn't get this kind of output. Nor did I when I fed the LF side off the sub out from the 787 to the 282.

So the 806 is obviously doing something better with it's BiAmp setup that my old setup was.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

First, the 806 specs:

130 W + 130 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Second, even if I agreed with you, what you are doing is way beyond what most folks do. The OP was looking at speakers, off the shelf speakers, and a subwoofer.

Third, I'm not sure what you are reading, but the owner's manual for the 806 simply states this:

The FRONT L/R and SURR BACK L/R terminal posts
can be used with front speakers and surround back
speakers respectively, or bi-amped to provide separate
tweeter and woofer feeds for a pair of front speakers that
support bi-amping, providing improved bass and treble
performance.
• When bi-amping is used, the AV receiver/AV amplifier
is able to drive up to 5.1 speakers in the main
room.
• For bi-amping, the FRONT L/R terminal posts connect
to the front speakers’ woofer terminals. And the
SURR BACK L/R terminal posts connect to the front
speakers’ tweeter terminals.
• Once you’ve completed the bi-amping connections
shown below and turned on the AV receiver/AV
amplifier, you must set the “Speakers Type” setting to
“Bi-Amp” to enable biamping (see page 47).
Important:
• When making the bi-amping connections, be sure
to remove the jumper bars that link the speakers’
tweeter (high) and woofer (low) terminals.
• Bi-amping can only be used with speakers that support
bi-amping. Refer to your speaker manual.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

The OP posted about running floor standing speakers off of this receiver, Lots of "Off the shelf" floor standing speakers can be Bi Amped (Since we're all into semantics I said lots, not most or not all).

At any rate I am done here... There is nothing more to add. You have your opinion, I have mine... I have the setup and I (and everyone else) can hear the difference, not in sound quality but the output levels of bass, I think it's a great receiver to drive Bi Amp capable speakers, and that is that.

Have fun!

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

See the bench tests for any number of receivers at any magazine/e-zine site. They all "suffer" due to a shared power supply. The FTC doesn't have a standard for multi channel amp ratings like they do for single/stereo power amps/receivers. Granted, the 80x being Ultra2 certified, do better than most. According to HomeTheaterMag, the 805 clipped at 181 driving one channel, 162 x 5, and 120 x 7.


When you're set to full range, it's just that, full range. With sub=no, any other channel with a crossover in place is directing its bass information to your mains along with the LFE channel.

Also, with sub=no, the only other filter you can adjust has to be the "LPF of the LFE". This isn't related to bass management in the traditional sense and Onkyo's decision to give the user access to it has lead to much confusion. Per Dolby's spec, the LFE channel is brickwalled, not simply rolled off, at 120Hz. The LPF of the LFE is implementing a rolloff on the .1 channel in 5.1/7.1 above your configured frequency. Anything in the LFE channel above the set point is simply thrown away, not redirected somewhere else. In your case, you're redirecting the LFE back into your L/R mains...the LPF of LFE is filtering that signal to throw away anything present above your set point, but below the Dolby mandated 120hz brickwall. In the end, both your FL/FR and SBL/SBR amps are still amplifying the exact same signal.


It's not that we don't believe that you observed differences with the 806, but what you've described is not attributable to bi-amping as implemented on the 806. The 806 has many other features that could account for any subjective and objective output changes when comparing to your previous setup. The most likely candidate is Audyssey's DynamicEQ. Audyssey's room correction is calculated for Reference Level playback. Very few of us can or even should listen at that level...can't get that hearing back once it's gone. DynamicEQ was created as a kind of variable loudness boost to compensate for our lack of sensitivity to certain frequencies as the SPL is lowered. So, as you back off the volume from Reference, DynamicEQ dials in more and more boost, especially in the boom frequenices.

I had a 506 with DEQ in my living room system for a short time. DEQ turned everything into a bass spectacular, the news, weather channel, whatever...even when listening at "quiet, the kid's asleep" levels. It didn't take me long to turn it off. Since installing that 506 at its permanent home at my parents' house, DEQ is now back on...it seems to play nicer with the modest 8" sub I built for them than it did with the dual DIY NHT1259s in my living room.

-Brent

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Brett, you might also be interested to know that Dolby has something in the spec that when you set sub=no, the redirected LFE level is reduced. The assumption being that main speakers simply aren't built to handle their full range duties along with the +10dB boosted signal available with the LFE channel (the LFE plays back +10dB higher than the main channels after decoding).

Your sig lists an AV12. Where is that in your system? If you have a spare amp (the 282?), you should consider running the AV12 at least as the LFE if not redirecting all bass to it. I couldn't find much information on the AR9s, but as a general rule, the included passive "subwoofer" in similar speakers is still going to be no match for a beast driver like the AV12. With the AR9s having a 10" driver and a f3 rating of 32hz, a ported AV12 will open up another whole octave of bass and with proper power will probably have more output than both AR9 10" drivers combined.

-Brent

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Brent,

My AV12 is in a custom built enclosure fed by a 500w Carver TDC Plate amp (Search for the AR ARS500 sub, that's the amp) but it's down at the moment. My system took a surge a while back and something happened to the amp. I have had it apart and I found a blown fuse, replaced it and the plate amp powers up and the sub thumps, but it doesn't seem to be getting any signal. I haven't really sat down and spent any time diagnosing the issue. Once I do the sub will go back into the frey.

You are correct that the passive 10's in the AR9's can not match the AV12, not even close.. I run the AV12 in a very tight sealed enclosure and it's an absolute monster. I'm friends with John Janowitz, he and I collaborated on a huge pair of ribbon line array's that I bought from him (and still haven't finished yet) they will have active networks and Bi Amped (tubes for the ribbons and solid state for the midranges).

If the LPF of the LFE is brick walled, why do they give you the option to change the frequency? it starts at 120 goes 100, 80(THX) and lower. *shrugs*

I do not run Dynamic EQ or Music Mode on here, I do have it set on Auddesey EQ though, and it sounds very flat to my ears.. Without hooking up the spl meter and Studio RTA there is no way to know for sure, but even if it's not flat, I am very happy with where it's at.

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

The LFE is brick walled in the DD encoder at 120Hz, but it's not clear if it's actually brick walled in the Onkyos and other receivers that expose the setting or if it's implemented as a low pass filter of some order, although the name would imply a low pass type filter. Onkyo only mentions something cryptic about "filter out unwanted hum" and I haven't bothered to read Denon's explanation. It's not clear where that hum might come from. I go ahead and push mine to 120Hz, as that's the channel's upper limit per the Dolby spec. According to various posters identifying themselves as sound engineers, most engineers set a LPF at 80Hz when mixing the LFE channel rather than run full speed into the 120Hz brick wall. It's very doubtful that anyone could actually hear a real world difference between the 80,90,100, and 120Hz options in the 805 (same in 806?).

If I get bored enough over the next two weeks, I think I've got a test dvd with various frequencies encoded only in the LFE channel. I'll try to dig it up and see what happens with the different settings and frequencies.

-Brent

Re: Onkyo 706/806 (7.1) Question

Not sure what you mean by Music mode.

A quick Google suggest the 787 didn't have Audyssey. Even if you've manually disabled DEQ, Audyssey Room Correction alone could make a big change in you sub output as well. I ran a frequency sweep with Audyssey on/off shortly after getting the 805. Audyssey on added about +9dB of boost at 10Hz even though I was measuring better than +/-3dB down to 10Hz without Audyssey.

-Brent