HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended) - Page 2

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

"Oh! I hadn't heard about any midnight openings. Might have to check that out."

Walmart usually puts out their release day stuff at midnight.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

That's actually a decent way to describe it.

I was very unimpressed with the 35mm quality at both viewings. It was soft, a bit murky, and lacked detail. With the added ringing, it just further diminished the quality. The IMAX shots were absolutely stunning and perfect - the best projected visuals I've ever seen.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I haven't seen the Blu-Ray yet, but based on DVDBeaver screencaps (The Dark Knight Blu-ray - Christian Bale Heath Ledger especially the police funeral) the ringing looks terrible, and one of my biggest pet peeves happens to be reviewers who'll downplay or even ignore something like that to support a release they otherwise like. Completely ruins their usefulness as reviewers (minor kudos to the original poster here, at least he mentions the 'edge-enhancement')
The IMAX digital grading, etc. isn't relevant to that little mini-rant, because the original poster doesn't seem to have been aware of it.

Moving on to the issue of halos in the IMAX presentation of 35mm scenes... Can someone explain the logic here? I thought the point of Edge Enhancement was to make things look sharper at a distance (with the drawback of making them look terrible in close-up)
Seems to me that IMAX, with the audience sitting right up close to the screen, is the very last place one would want to use edge-enhancement.

Beyond that, it sounds like, reading the previous posts, we can mostly agree....

- There is DEFINITELY edge-enhancement on this supposedly '5/5 perfect Blu-Ray.' Judge for yourself how severe it is http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe...20blu-ray3.jpg

- This edge-enhancement was present in IMAX screenings showing the 35mm footage, as a result of digital-sharpening in a pathetic attempt to render the 35mm scenes more 'IMAX-like'

- This edge-enhancement was not present in non-imax screenings.


Best case scenario, Nolan went insane and after years of refusing to use D.I., he's decided to bring his vision for Dark Knight is the one with all the digital sharpening. So, at least we're seeing the director's intent; digital sharpening and all.

Worst case scenario, Warner went with the digitally sharpened footage because it was simply cheaper (Nolan's intention be damned) than going back to the unmodified 35mm.
Now, letting major artefacts onto my $40* "beyond high definition," "look and sound of perfect" blu-ray disk for the sake of cost-cutting is something I'm always a bit critical of. But, at least when it's a less-popular art-house film or produced by a struggling smaller company, I can appreciate the reasoning. Warner screwed up the transfer on one of their highest grossing movies ever, and already a record-breaking blu-ray, for the sake of 'cost-cutting' and that is just plain inexcusable.

*I'm Australian

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

It's weird that they just used the IMAX master. You would think they take the best possible source for the anamorphic 35mm as well, which, since there was no DI for the 35 based footage, would it be the IP?

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Not "weird" but "cheap"

I could be completely wrong here (my 'knowledge' of IMAX mastering is drawn entirely from this thread and conjecture, so please correct the errors I might make) but I think the 35mm film was put through some sort of D.I. for IMAX (to add the edge-enhancement) and it was cheaper to just use that D.I. as the HD Master (edge enhancement and all) then to create a new HD Master from the 35mm footage.

As a point of comparison. The relatively unheard of, but very excellent (based on the one examlpe I know of) "R & B Films," when they rereleased 'Chronos' on blu-ray, actually went and created a new High Definition Master from the original film (and their earlier release (on HDDVD) was good to begin with. As a matter of fact, the HDDVD of Chronos is probably my most watched disk (partly for the short running time and partly for the showcase imagery. But with my collection of 300+ disks, that should tell you that the HDDVD was at least 'acceptable')
Yet R&B, a tiny company, went and did their very best to make the Blu-Ray release even better. That shows pride in your work.

Warner, on the other hand, faced with a far, far more certain seller in 'The Dark Knight' haven't even bothered to do a proper scan to remove something as atrocious as all this edge-enhancement (a phenomenon far, far worse than any imperfections that might have been in the HDDVD of 'Chronos')

Now, Warner sometimes does right. In America, they're second only to Sony when it comes to releasing quality films (they make mistakes, but for every 'The Cowboys' there's at least a 'Bullit' AND a 'Battle of the Bulge')
In Australia they are, overall, the best. (For some reason, a lot of Sony's cheaper American releases are in the top tier in Australia. Warner's prices are reasonable (or close to reasonable) here as well as America)

But with The Dark Knight they have seriously shortchanged the customer. I'm not going to get onto the "I hate Warner" bandwagon. I love my blu-rays (and HDDVDs) of "How the West Was Won," "The Searchers," "Bullit," "Grand Prix," "TMNT" and "How the West Was Won" (that really is an incredible release)
But I will say that individual Warner releases are an insult to the consumer, and 'The Dark Knight' is definitely one of them.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

What kind of display and size-to-distance ratio are people using to say the EE is very distracting? I'm curious if some display types (like LCD) wouldn't make EE more pronounced than others (like CRT RPTV).

On my CRT monitor, I don't find the EE to be all that noticeable until I get close to the screen -- and the size-to-distance ratio would definitely be greater than what I use for normal viewing, ie. 53" RPTV from ~9.5ft away (though I plan to move up to a 60"-plus in the not-too-distant future). If nobody pointed it out (for me to scrutinize more closely), I might never actually notice it at all under normal viewing.

I do believe though that LCDs tend to make EE artifacts look worse than CRTs do (and I'd think any projection type display would also diffuse the artifacts a bit more so as not to be as noticeable/distracting). This is based on experience w/ still photography.

_Man_

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I am, indeed, using an LCD, with the THX recommended 40-degree viewing angle. (So, pretty close. 24" display and about 2.5 ft)

Never heard of LCD making EE worse, but that actually makes a lot of sense. If I had to guess, I'd say the brighter whites make the halos more noticable. (My own display has the backlight turned right down and contrast turned right up (with all the finer calibration done through my graphics card)) So, between the low backlight and the high contrast I'm not sure how the luminance (if that's what enhances the halos) compares to other LCDs and CRTs.

As for those screencaps, the immediate effect (on my display, at my viewing distance) is a very definite and unpleasant 'harshness' in the police funeral shot. It's probably most obvious there because of the contrast between the black uniforms and the brightly lit surroundings.
Closer examination, of course, reveals actual halos to explain the harshness, and also that same sort of harshness, to lesser degrees, in most of the other shots.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Thanks for the review, Cameron! Ringing issues or no ringing issues, I'll be picking this one up soon as I loved the film in theaters and am also a massive Batman fan.

cheers,
Phil

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

CRTs soften the picture and are too small to make the EE very obvious. Project the disc in 1080p on a screen >=2 m and the EE is unmissable if you know what EE looks like.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Actually, I was talking about staring at some of those screencaps on my computer's 19" (actually ~18") 4x3 CRT from ~2ft away. Yes, I can see them in the police funeral shot screencap, but it's a still, not an image in motion, and at a greater screen-size-to-viewing-distance ratio (or viewing angle if one prefers) than I normally use for actual HT viewing (vs pixel-peeping on my computer monitor ) *plus* I'm actively looking for the EE vs immersing myself in the movie.

Like I said before, it really depends on how big the screen and how close one sits (besides what the display type might do to either worsen or reduce the effect).

I just tried looking at that screencap again on my 20" 16x10 LCD at work, and it does look a tad worse on the LCD than on my CRT at home.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that the PQ shouldn't/couldn't be better -- no doubt 99.9% of titles could be better, if only by a very small degree in some cases. Just trying to put this matter into perspective and see how much it really matters in practice -- obviously, YMMV depending on some of the factors already mentioned.

_Man_

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I think I see what you are talking about (not even sure what EE looks like), and wish it was not there, but honestly I dont see this taking away from my experience one bit and I consider this a VERY minor issue at best.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Non-American residents CAN NOT REGISTER for BD Live.

Isn't that great? Sucks to be us (I'm Canadian)

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

The logic of that move escapes me. (And I've heard this complaint in a number of other threads.) Why would you want to deny/anger any part of your customer base?

Seems to me if it's a Region A disc, the BD Live should be open to all members of North America. You're paying $$$ for the feature, after all.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Can't you just lie and put in another address? I mean, if it's BD-Live, it's not like they're actually mailing anything to the address you put down where you'd need it to be real.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Only if you can hide the location of your IP address, which identifies what country you're in.

I tried several times to register with U.S. as country of residence and it failed most likely because of that.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

anyone think center channel dialog is a bit low.

also i'm in U.S. and can't get the logn live to work.

the ringing isn't noticable to me on my 73" mits.

only problem i had was some black level not being black enough.

Ok just saw my favorite section of the film. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I'm not sure about WB since this is their first BD Live title, but I know Universal and Paramount don't have their BD Live sites for their titles up and working until the official street date.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Giving a 5/5 Video rating to a disc with as much EE as this has seems pretty ridiculous.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I have not seen the disc yet on my 60" display (sitting 8 ft back), so I will reserve judgement, but what you're saying doesn't surpise me. I get the feeling this entire EE issue is just being overstated. As I mentioned in another thread, I saw EE on the 35mm footage at two theatrical viewings (one being IMAX). I think it had something to do with the merging process of the two types of films used to create the movie and not some guy turning the EE dial all the way up out of ignorance for the Blu-ray release. It's all source related and beyond Blu-ray mastering. In fact, given Warner is actually using a high bit rate (24mbps) for the video for a change and given this title was an incredible box office hit, extra care was probably given to this release. Finally, I'd have to believe Nolan signed off on this release especially given he was essentially promoting the IMAX AR for the BD.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

My judgment based on the evidence provided: Barely perceptible to non-existent.

Regards,

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

From the caps I saw at that other forum, the Imax prologue caps showed significant improvement in clarity over the the bluray shots.

Of course we cant judge based on caps posted online, but it was a bit disheartening to see.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I haven't checked my copy of the prologue, but maybe it maxed out the bitrate? OR do people think the source was just better for the prologue?

_Man_

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I'm not getting something here. What was the source of the IMAX prologue shots? What was the resolution of the IMAX caps? Still 1920 x1080 like the BD or something higher?

Edit: Found the screen caps you were referring to. The BD shot I looked at looks like it has more contrast than the prologue one. To tell the truth, the BD shot looked more like what I remember from my theatrical viewing of this film, but maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Well, I took a look at the caps posted by Xylon at AVS. I'm not sure. Is it a fair comparison to use a close up from the IMAX shot and compare it to a medium close up that is shot under completely different lighting conditions?

Also, I don't quite get the purpose of trying to compare the TDK Blu-ray shot to the shots from THE PRESTIGE or BATMAN BEGINS. All those shots look like they use different lighting. Couldn't that have an effect on the amount of apparent detail that appears on the film? Were all three films shot using the same type of film stock, shutter speeds, etc.? I would think all those factors might account for perceived differences in detail and quality. I can't even qualify as an amateur when it comes to evaluating cinematography and how that might account for differences on different Blu-ray films. Anybody want to enlighten me?

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

My impression was that TDK, BB, and Prestige all had the same Director of Photography (who works with Nolan quite a bit I suppose) and tends to use the same film stock when filming (the 35mm bits anyway, obviously using different stock for IMAX). That was the basis for the comparisons I thought.

Still, the BD shots are pretty damning even without the BB and Prestige comparisons.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

I want to get this so bad I can feel it in my very marrow, alas i'm not allowed to buy any DVD'S or BD's until Christmas because i'll most likely be getting this on Blu as a gift.

I'm glad someone is getting it for me but I want it now dammit lol!

I've made peace with the switching AR's, if it's what Nolan wants than that's how I want it.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

The IMAX scenes have CG effects. I'm wondering at what resolution they rendered those scenes?

UPDATE: I just found out. They used 8K, 5.6K and 4K for IMAX.

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

Gotta say I disagree with this, and other folks who are downplaying the EE and overall "digital", processed look of the 35mm portions of THE DARK KNIGHT. While THE DARK KNIGHT is no GANGS OF NEW YORK, the 35mm material (i.e., what, about 80% of the film?) definitely has an overly digitally processed look to it. The IMAX stuff looks great- even flat-out stunning- but the 35mm material definitely has a noticeable edgy/digital look to it. Other recent Blu-rays of 35mm shot movies like TROPIC THUNDER and THE INCREDIBLE HULK (THE INCREDIBLE HULK having been filmed in 35mm anamorphic, like the 35mm sections of THE DARK KNIGHT) look noticeably better and a lot more organic and film-like than THE DARK KNIGHT. There's no reason I can think of for the 35mm sections of THE DARK KNIGHT not to look as organic and film-like as other recent 35mm-shot movies on Blu-rau like the ones I've mentioned.

THE DARK KNIGHT on Blu-ray is far from terrible, but it's also far from reference aside from the IMAX scenes.


For the IMAX scenes? Sure. But as an overall HD presentation of a recent 'blockbuster' on Blu-ray, I'd be much more likely to pull out THE INCREDIBLE HULK.

Vincent

Re: HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Dark Knight (Recommended)

We get it. Please dont turn this into AVS which has blown this "issue" so far out of proportion it is not even funny. 99% of the people who will watch this will not even know what EE is and will not see it. The remaining 1%.... the vast majority will not let some minor EE here and there take away from their enjoyment of the film at all. The remaining group.....I honestly dont know how these guys enjoy any film as they MUST constantly be looking for issues instead of watching the movie. I feel compassion for this small group as it is obvious they are tortured.