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The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke - Page 4

post #91 of 600
11/25/08 at 11:58am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

This is going too drive the "constant height" guys NUTS!!!

So, will the prolog be part of this release?
Thanks.
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post #92 of 600
11/25/08 at 12:03pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
So, will the prolog be part of this release?

The "prologue" that was originally released with I Am Legend in IMAX (as well as on the Batman Begins Blu-ray) is merely the first scene of "The Dark Knight." As it's part of the film, it will absolutely be part of the release. Afterall, they can't really cut out the first six minutes of the movie...
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post #93 of 600
11/25/08 at 12:13pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
Yes you are. I can't say if it sits low since I don't have a copy in front of me, but I wouldn't use review screenshots to determine if it does since you don't know how the pictures were taken, processed and posted.

From my experience, the screenshots posted on blu-ray.com are very, very accurate, certainly in terms of positioning.
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post #94 of 600
11/25/08 at 2:04pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
I'm referring to the Blu-ray disc. You can see some screenshots here:

Blu-ray.com - The Dark Knight (+ Digital Copy and BD Live) (Blu-ray) - Blu-ray Screenshots

It's only a fraction off-centre, but perhaps just enough to make the aspect changes even more noticable (not only does the picture "change" but is also drops slightly. Maybe I'm just too picky...

I think Batman Begins was similarly "low" on the screen.
Damn John, you have good eyes. I can't even tell from those shots. You, more than likely, are right. Yet, with it being so small a difference, only the few will notice the flaw. I'm either very lucky in my limited vision or very unfortunate because of what I may miss.
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post #95 of 600
11/25/08 at 2:14pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Here are my questions: Is the sd dvd in IMAX? If it's all about the IMAX experience, shouldn't it be? Since a changing aspect ratio has nothing to do with Hi-Def, if only the Blu-ray gets this treatment, then, I don't understand the point. Director's intent or not.
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post #96 of 600
11/25/08 at 2:35pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
This is going too drive the "constant height" guys NUTS!!!


Yeah, they'll definately have to settle for the DVD.
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post #97 of 600
11/25/08 at 2:55pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy evans
Here are my questions: Is the sd dvd in IMAX? If it's all about the IMAX experience, shouldn't it be? Since a changing aspect ratio has nothing to do with Hi-Def, if only the Blu-ray gets this treatment, then, I don't understand the point. Director's intent or not.

No, the DVD version is 2.40:1 ONLY, with the IMAX scenes on the second disc of the 2-disc DVD version.

The question I've been asking (since I'll get both DVD and BD) is what AR are the DVD IMAX scenes, since they don't have to be formatted for HDTV, they theoretically could be in 1.43:1 as originally shot.
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post #98 of 600
11/25/08 at 3:16pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
I'm referring to the Blu-ray disc. You can see some screenshots here:

Blu-ray.com - The Dark Knight (+ Digital Copy and BD Live) (Blu-ray) - Blu-ray Screenshots

It's only a fraction off-centre, but perhaps just enough to make the aspect changes even more noticable (not only does the picture "change" but is also drops slightly. Maybe I'm just too picky...

I think Batman Begins was similarly "low" on the screen.

Perhaps its just not looking right to you.

Because if you click on those screen shots and bring them full frame, you can measure the black on top and bottom and they are exactly the same. Perhaps my way was unscientific, but I did it and the picture is fine.

I think this is a great film and this aspect ratio thing isn't going to bother me. I understand what Nolan produced, and now I can appreciate the process on this BD.
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post #99 of 600
11/25/08 at 3:25pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I love the changing AR in this movie! Very cool!
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post #100 of 600
11/25/08 at 3:52pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Deeb
Because if you click on those screen shots and bring them full frame, you can measure the black on top and bottom and they are exactly the same. Perhaps my way was unscientific, but I did it and the picture is fine.

Really? That's actually very good news! I'll have to get my ruler out tomorrow and have a check! :-)
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post #101 of 600
11/25/08 at 3:56pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo Medina
I don't know if this would work because the extra framing above and below might be of different size, but perhaps for those who truly frown upon the changing ARs, might hard mattes work?

I doubt that the framing remains consistent from shot to shot. It's unlikely that they just pulled the image from the center of the frame.

Doug
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post #102 of 600
11/25/08 at 4:19pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I doubt that the framing remains consistent from shot to shot. It's unlikely that they just pulled the image from the center of the frame.

Doug

I took the prologue and made a 2.35:1 version by doing just that, and the ending montage suffered because Batman's head was missing in the Sears Tower shot near the end, so the image was adjusted for cropping depending on the shot.
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post #103 of 600
11/25/08 at 6:14pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
No, the DVD version is 2.40:1 ONLY, with the IMAX scenes on the second disc of the 2-disc DVD version.

The question I've been asking (since I'll get both DVD and BD) is what AR are the DVD IMAX scenes, since they don't have to be formatted for HDTV, they theoretically could be in 1.43:1 as originally shot.

that blu-ray lists the imax sections as 1.78:1
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post #104 of 600
11/25/08 at 6:34pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I first saw this thread and thought, "Four pages long... must be an old topic." But then I was suprised to find out it was started yesterday. What a hot topic this is!
Finally someone mentioned the constant height problem. My custom home theater screen is shaped 2.35:1. So in order for me to watch the Blu-ray version, I'd have to watch it smaller 1.78:1 with the curtains drawn and the non-Imax scenes will be letterboxed for me, but the Imax will "open up" to what is, for me, a normal 1.85 (1.78):1 movie, not Imax. Otherwise if I wanted to watch it full-width on my 2.35:1 screen, I'd have to pause the movie every time an Imax scene came up and zoom out and readjust the picture... uh, I don't think so.
The inclusion of both versions on the blu-ray would have be a no-brainer, if you ask me.
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post #105 of 600
11/25/08 at 6:58pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
that blu-ray lists the imax sections as 1.78:1

I know that, but I'm talking about the DVD version. On the DVD version the IMAX scenes are a part of the second disc's extras. If you look at any of the online images of the back DVD cover (2-disc) it mentions the IMAX scenes in their ORIGINAL format, so that could mean 1.43:1, not the modified 1.78:1.
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post #106 of 600
11/26/08 at 4:04am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I am so excited to get this movie on Blu-Ray. I have been chomping at the bit since the news of its ship date was first released.

That said, I too find it a bit odd that they would not include both versions on the disc. It is Blu-Ray after all and they are already selling you 2 discs in the package (3 if you want to count the digital download).

I don't think this is going to hinder many purchases of The Dark Knight. Most people buying discs don't even frequent these forums so will have no clue about this anyway. However, since they are uninformed there might be an outcry about the changing aspect ratios from a lot of people. It would have made life a lot easier for WB to just include both releases a la seemless branching.

No one would or could complain at the point and this would go down as one of the greatest Blu-Ray releases to date. Now, probably not so much. If there is a split opinion on this forum just imagine what the rest of the world will think.

I am thinking that, for me, I won't have a problem with it, but I hope I am right, because this movie was easily the best movie I saw last year, and probably in many years. I would hate to think that watching the Blu-Ray would be less than a thorughly enjoyable time.
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post #107 of 600
11/26/08 at 7:28am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
I'm referring to the Blu-ray disc. You can see some screenshots here:

Blu-ray.com - The Dark Knight (+ Digital Copy and BD Live) (Blu-ray) - Blu-ray Screenshots

It's only a fraction off-centre, but perhaps just enough to make the aspect changes even more noticable (not only does the picture "change" but is also drops slightly. Maybe I'm just too picky...

I think Batman Begins was similarly "low" on the screen.

I checked those pictures myself, and can confirm what David said--the image is actually exactly vertically centered within the frame. The black bars above and below the image in those screenshots (which have a vertical resolution of 720 pixels) are both 93 pixels tall.
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post #108 of 600
11/26/08 at 8:04am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I just have to mention that I am using a 2:35 CIH setup and viewed this movie yesterday and LOVED the changing AR feature. Sure it does not exactly make full use of my setup as I had to mask the sides of the screen and just go for the 1:78 ratio for the movie, but I would not want it any other way....why? This is the way this movie was meant to be experienced from everything I have read and that is EXACTLY how I want to experience it, even if it is a bit of a hassle on my setup. I find it funny that MOST of my fellow 2:35 brothers are up in arms over this because it does not agree with the CIH setup, but most of these same guys are the ones who pushed OAR for years.......hhmmmm.......Kind of contradictory IMO. Just my .02
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post #109 of 600
11/26/08 at 9:07am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Seaver
Not really; this is just an odd case where the home video version including exactly what was on the screen in theaters would undermine the intent. If the IMAX-shot scenes were pillarboxed, then there's a good chance that the person watching it would see it as smaller than the widescreen scenes. Sure, the IMAX-ratio scenes would cover more area (1.44 square screen-heights vs 1.34 square screen-heights), but the brain probably wouldn't process it that way. If Nolan wants those scenes to come across as bigger than the rest, then cropping them to 1.78:1 is probably the best compromise.

Fortunately, changing aspect ratios mid-film isn't something the comes up very often - I think the last film to try this trick was Galaxy Quest, which abandoned it almost completely for DVD: While the film expanded from 1.85:1 to 2.35:1 at the moment Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Tim Allen's character realizes he's actually in outer space
, the DVD just stays at 2.35:1 for the entire length because the alternatives were giving the trick away from the start by having blank space all around the image or having the image get smaller when the director's intent was to show the world getting larger.

I completely agree. I saw both versions in the theater and the entire point of the IMAX version was clearly to have a constant width image that opens up vertically. The best compromise in the home theater is to crop the IMAX scenes to 1.78:1 - pillar boxing them would defeat the whole purpose.

One other recent movie with changing aspect ratios was Disney's Brother Bear. When the main character is turned into a Bear the aspect ratio opens up horizontally from 1.75:1 to 2.35:1 to symbolize his increased awareness (and presumably increased peripheral vision). The DVD replicated this (unlike Galaxy Quest) with black bars on all sides of the image for the beginning of the movie, that later opens up to the full width of your TV. I was truly shocked that it was Disney (of all studios) that respected a film's original aspect ratio in this way - they could have just cropped it to 1.78:1.
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post #110 of 600
11/26/08 at 10:12am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd smith
I find it funny that MOST of my fellow 2:35 brothers are up in arms over this because it does not agree with the CIH setup, but most of these same guys are the ones who pushed OAR for years.......hhmmmm.......Kind of contradictory IMO. Just my .02

How is it contradictory? This BD isn't in any of the OARs of the original theatrical releases. It is in a modified aspect ratio designed to approximate the IMAX effect: a poor approximation at that. This film was presented in a 2.35:1 OAR theatrically which is not on this disc. It was presented in IMAX and that presentation is not on this disc. This disc does not contain any OAR presentation of this film, at all.
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post #111 of 600
11/26/08 at 10:27am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
This disc does not contain any OAR presentation of this film, at all.

No, but Nolan planned on this modified AR even before the film was in theatres, so it's still a director-approved presentation, like it or not.
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post #112 of 600
11/26/08 at 10:48am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
No, but Nolan planned on this modified AR even before the film was in theatres, so it's still a director-approved presentation, like it or not.

I'm not contesting the fact that he has approved this MAR'd version. The fact is I don't really care if a director approves MAR'd versions of his own film. My problem is that the MAR'd version of this film is the only version available on BD. MAR vs OAR has been a topic of great debate on this site and people have vehemently argued that films should always be presented in their OAR.

Now, this film comes along where the director has decided that a MAR'd version is the only one that will be presented in high definition and suddenly it's okay. Well, I don't agree. Nolan can mar his film, but there should also be at least one OAR presentation of this film on this BD. That presentation should have been the the theatrically released 2.35:1 version.
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post #113 of 600
11/26/08 at 11:09am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Can someone post a link, or quote from Nolan on this issue? I see a lot of posts throwing around comments that he's made on this but nothing that's quoting him directly. Specifically the issue between the SD-DVD and the Blu-ray release, not the theatrical run.
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post #114 of 600
11/26/08 at 11:25am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
How is it contradictory? This BD isn't in any of the OARs of the original theatrical releases. It is in a modified aspect ratio designed to approximate the IMAX effect: a poor approximation at that. This film was presented in a 2.35:1 OAR theatrically which is not on this disc. It was presented in IMAX and that presentation is not on this disc. This disc does not contain any OAR presentation of this film, at all.

What is contained on the BR is the CLOSEST approximation to the directors intent which was the IMAX version from everything I have read. This is how the film was meant to be seen (at least the closest to it). The straight 2:35 presentation is NOT the directors vision.
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post #115 of 600
11/26/08 at 11:32am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Nolan can mar his film, but there should also be at least one OAR presentation of this film on this BD. That presentation should have been the the theatrically released 2.35:1 version.
If Nolan considers the IMAX version definitive, aren't those two statements a little contradictory? Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire for the 35mm version, but in terms of respecting the director's and cinematographer's work, I think the version we're getting on BD is the way to go - they made a conscious decision not to matte the stuff that was shot in IMAX to achieve a constant aspect ratio in IMAX theaters, and the framing we're getting on Blu-ray is the one that best matches that within the limits of current home-video technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
This BD isn't in any of the OARs of the original theatrical releases.
It's the best alternative. As much as it's our instinct and training to demand the exact dimensions of the theater, art tends to find ways to confound hard-and-fast rules.
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post #116 of 600
11/26/08 at 11:38am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd smith
What is contained on the BR is the CLOSEST approximation to the directors intent which was the IMAX version from everything I have read. This is how the film was meant to be seen (at least the closest to it). The straight 2:35 presentation is NOT the directors vision.

I have to agree. The 2:35 theatrical presentation was either a) forced on him by the studio or b) a compromise since the IMAX version simply could not be shown in many theaters and he was forced to simply crop his IMAX sequences to make them fit the many theaters in this country that could not show his vision. The 2:35 theatrical release IS a MAR'd version.

Question: How is cropping his IMAX sequences entirely to 2:35 for the theatrical release not WORSE than cropping them to only 1:78 for the BluRay release? They are BOTH modified from the director's intent, but at least the BluRay version is closer. His only other choice would have been to pillar-box the entire movie.
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post #117 of 600
11/26/08 at 11:58am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-P
Can someone post a link, or quote from Nolan on this issue? I see a lot of posts throwing around comments that he's made on this but nothing that's quoting him directly. Specifically the issue between the SD-DVD and the Blu-ray release, not the theatrical run.

Sure thing:

'Dark Knight' To Bring IMAX Home | homemediamagazine.com

Quote:
Batman Begins sequel The Dark Knight features Imax sequences that fully fill the eight-story screen, while the rest of the film appears letterboxed. Director Christopher Nolan said that the Blu-ray Disc version could capture the Imax sequences by filling a 16:9-ratio HDTV while the majority of the film appears letterboxed.

“For home video, certainly the Blu-ray version will [involve] actually changing the format size and actually using the IMAX footage,” Nolan said. “You can see the difference on that high resolution.”

As an example, the recent Blu-ray release of Batman Begins featured six minutes of the Imax footage from The Dark Knight. Indeed, it fills the 16:9 frame and captures the detail.

“On the standard 35mm version, we did 35mm extractions from the Imax frame,” Nolan said. “The Imax negative is so clear and grain free that there's a great sharpness and clarity to them. Obviously, the differences are nowhere near as dramatic as there is on the Imax screen.”

There might be minor cropping in the Blu-ray edition, as Imax screens are not exactly 16:9 in dimensions.

“Some of the smaller Imax theaters are a smaller aspect ratio which is 16:9 as well,” Nolan said. “It's still quite a difference from the 2.40:1 [aspect ratio] to a 16:9. So I think you'll get some sense of it.”

Shooting in Imax changed Nolan's technique as a filmmaker to accommodate the technical limitations of the format.

“One of the big disadvantages of these big Imax cameras, particularly in low-light photography, is that they don't have very sophisticated video hookups. You don't actually get a very clear image on the monitor at all. If anything it was more of a case of watching with my eyes and seeing what was really going on because the actual video feed that you get from the Imax cameras is very dim and it's very hard to see what's going on.”

The Dark Knight opens in theaters July 18.
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post #118 of 600
11/26/08 at 12:01pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

It would be interesting to do a survey to see how many of those objecting to the changing AR saw the film in IMAX.
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post #119 of 600
11/26/08 at 12:05pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Smith
I just have to mention that I am using a 2:35 CIH setup and viewed this movie yesterday and LOVED the changing AR feature. Sure it does not exactly make full use of my setup as I had to mask the sides of the screen and just go for the 1:78 ratio for the movie, but I would not want it any other way....why? This is the way this movie was meant to be experienced from everything I have read and that is EXACTLY how I want to experience it, even if it is a bit of a hassle on my setup. I find it funny that MOST of my fellow 2:35 brothers are up in arms over this because it does not agree with the CIH setup, but most of these same guys are the ones who pushed OAR for years.......hhmmmm.......Kind of contradictory IMO. Just my .02
&
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Smith
What is contained on the BR is the CLOSEST approximation to the directors intent which was the IMAX version from everything I have read. This is how the film was meant to be seen (at least the closest to it). The straight 2:35 presentation is NOT the directors vision.
If you indeed: "had to mask the sides of the screen and just go for the 1:78 ratio for the movie"; you did not watch it: "as the director intended".

-------------------------------

This is a "joke"; a BIG joke!
This is not how it was presented in most theaters & not how it was presented in IMAX. And we don't even get what the SD offers.
WB has re-released 'adjusted' AR's for titles in the past; I predict this will be the case for this title as well.

========================

Thanks for the history of "the prelude".
GREAT marketing!
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post #120 of 600
11/26/08 at 12:54pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin

Awesome, thanks Nicholas!
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