The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke - Page 20

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

It is the fault of the produced BD if it doesn't contain the version, widely distributed theatrically, that would have satified the needs of people with CIH set ups. The beef would be illegitimate if this film had only been released in the IMAX format.

Re: Off topic.

So the theory goes. I'm of the belief that the quality of digital cameras cannot yet replicate the full resolution of the larger IMAX frame. The filmmakers on The Dark Knight admitted as much when they spoke about having to do digital effects work on some of the IMAX footage--that they felt that it worked, but just, and took a lot of time, effort and money to get right.

There still aren't that many digital IMAX cameras in the world either, and very few facilities equipped to deal with processing and editing that footage, and few special effects and post-production facilities that are capable of working at that level. That's not to say that they couldn't upgrade and design whatever new tools were needed; it's just that to date, there hadn't been much of a demand for it.

I still think old-fashioned film IMAX cameras will yield better results, but perhaps a combination of those film cameras and quieter/smaller (?) digital cameras for more dialogue-oriented scenes might be one solution. Or VistaVision or conventional 65mm cameras; certainly it would be an upgrade over 35mm.

The thing for studios is, these things cost a lot of money. They need to have a financial justification for doing so. And I think The Dark Knight served as a first step in that process, because it's had the kind of success it had in IMAX theaters because of the extra work that was done in IMAX; I don't think it would have been as huge of a success for IMAX theaters. Very big for sure, but not as huge.

Already since the success of The Dark Knight in IMAX, Michael Bay and Paramount announced that parts of the Transformers sequel coming out next summer will have select scenes shot in IMAX. Personally I could care less about Transformers, but that just goes to show that now that The Dark Knight had demonstrated there's an audience for this, studios and filmmakers are going to start embracing it, at least on a limited scale.

This could be the beginning of something very exciting for the filmgoing audience.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

It doesn't feel gimmicky to me either. However, there definitely are some shots in there that didn't *need* to be in IMAX, and in interviews the filmmakers has said as much; once they did the first aerial shot in IMAX, for instance, they figured it looked so good there was no reason not to do all aerial shots that way. I think all of the aerial shots, for instance, do a great job of giving you a rush and a sudden "you are there" sort of feeling at the beginning of any transition... but some of them don't do any more than just that and I can understand wanting or expecting more.

Hong Kong being (mostly) IMAX made sense to me... this is the first time (in film, anyway) that we've seen Batman (not Bruce Wayne) leave Gotham and essentially invade another country to kidnap someone... he's acting as a bounty hunter I suppose, and those scenes being in IMAX really help to enhance that short sequence and give it the sense of scope and importance it needs. It's a major plot point and sets everything in motion... Batman undeniably breaking a whole bunch of laws there is the line he crosses that gives the mob the final push into crossing their line by hiring The Joker. The capture of Lao leads to the arrest of all of the mobsters, the Joker getting their money, challenging Batman and trying to take over the city... all of those things are set in motion by the Hong Kong trip. Yet, it's not a plot point that needs a lot of time to go over, so making a sequence any longer than that wouldn't serve the film... but putting it into IMAX gives it the sense of scope that it needs.

Scenes with Bruce driving his lambourgini in IMAX seem more like "we shot it because we could" rather than because they needed to. But it certainly helps to show the distance between Bruce in those scenes and the rest of the action, as if he's a protector and observer of this world but not a participant in it.

Big finale action scenes look cool in IMAX, that's the only justification the Prewitt building sequence needs in my mind

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Edwin,

That's quite a different point, in fact I get the impression that that specific point has been made once or twice earlier in this thread already.

I, however, was reacting to a post by David Forbes (who I quoted in my post, and) who mentioned that he much preferred "the shifting aspect ratio of the Blu-ray. Doesn't distract me at all, and it did not distract me in the only-20%-real-IMAX version."

He added: "As I said, the only people who have a legitimate beef with this are those few with CIH setups, where the variable AR has no good solution."

(Note, that this is about being distracted by the pseudo-IMAX parts, when they are there.)

I remarked that this beef then should not be with the BD, but with the fact that they were using a system not suited for it.


Cees

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I suspect the next film will be shot entirely in IMAX.

Doug

Re: Off topic.

There are no digital IMAX cameras that I'm aware of. (unless there is a prototype floating around somewhere) The highest resolution digital movie camera available is the Red One at 4k. Soon the Red Epic will be available that will be able to shoot up to 28K, which should be roughly the equivalent of IMAX. There is also a Red 3D variant coming. Also the DALSA camera shoots at 4K.

Imax has developed a digital projection system which started showing up in Imax theaters in June of 2008.

Doug

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I finally rented this. I'm in the "looked great, didn't distract" camp. I loved the IMAX footage, and wish the entire movie looked that good. I don't understand how anyone can complain about such beauty. "Distract" me with gorgeous hi-def scenes any time you want, Hollywood!

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Agreed. we watched it last night (early Christmas present from the wife), and I thoroughly enjoyed the IMAX footage, and didn't mind the shifting aspect ratio at all. Didn't feel gimmicky... quite the opposite: I felt the incorporation of the IMAX footage stepped up the showmanship, as it were. Did it draw attention to itself? Yeah, maybe a bit. But shit, it looked spectacular, so why not? It's a hybrid film, for Chrissakes, so none of the normal rules apply. I was more than impressed with the presentation.

My only gripe is with the film itself: Batman's voice was WAY overdone. In fact, we've been growling at eachother 'round the house all morning, making fun of it.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

On the A/R question...very well said, Craig. I thought the BD looked fantastic and was not distracted or pulled out of the movie in the least by the switches. In fact, the IMAX stuff served to pull me in even further. Very well done, IMO.

As to the Batman voice..LOL. So true. I wish he could have stuck with his Batman voice from the first film....just a little TOO much this time.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Hardly. The Blu-ray Disc spec is for a 1920x1080 window. If you want to create a home theatre that displays in a manner not designed for the technical specifications of the format, you cannot really complain. The Blu-ray is advertised as being in variable aspect ratios, as per the director's preferred release. It makes no claim about being in any other format.

If you don't like it, don't get it. Or buy the DVD and upscale that for your constant image height needs.

If I have a home theater set up with masking on the top and bottom, and choose only to watch 2:35:1 (or thereabouts) ratio films on that display, it's my fault that The Dark Knight doesn't fulfill my requirements, as I have deviated from the norm.

Sorry to say it, but to quote the line from Boogie Nights; "That's not an MP, that's a YP, your problem."

Otherwise, shit, its the same as complaining that you have to reset your old 4:3 TV that has a 16:9 mode when you've got a non-anamorphic disc. The problem is at your end, with your choice of methods.

Yes, there is the complaint that the wide released version didn't get a high def release, but it's not like an obscure cut was released claiming to be what it wasn't. The IMAX released version wasn't just shown somewhere in one cinema, it was released broadly, worldwide. It was the director's preferred version of the film.

Would I have preferred to have the choice of both versions via branching? Hell yes. Do I expect it to be? No. I expect a quality version of a film, presented in a near-original aspect ratio (which this variable aspect ratio transfer is). But at least I know that the film had a director who gave a shit about how he produced the film, and ultimately, what his preference for your viewing is (ideally, through purchasing a ticket to an IMAX session).

If the city I live in had an IMAX cinema when TDK was released (now we have 3 I think. *sigh* Yes, Madagascar 2 in IMAX. f'ing yay.) I know where I would have seen it.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I like the Batman growl because I think it shows how far towards the "other side" he sometimes has to go to do what he needs to do.

One thing I caught is how similar Batman's growl is to the Joker's when the Joker yells at the "fake Batman" on videotape "LOOK AT ME!!!". If I were blindfolded and just heard that snippet I would have thought it was Bale growling it. So in a way I think Nolan (who is a stickler for details) wants to show through their gruff voices how much alike Batman and The Joker are.

Re: Off topic.

I was under the impression that the "U2 3D" feature was shot using new digital IMAX cameras; at least that's how I recall it being spoken about during an interview or two I read during production of the film. However, I could absolutely be wrong as I'm going on a year old memory here.

Whether or not one existed, I'd be inclined to believe that for a top quality image, film is still the gold standard.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Unfortunately everything you're saying is likely falling on deaf ears with some here....may I suggest a tub of popcorn to munch on while sitting on the sidelines?

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I do not mind the changing aspect ratio but I would have preferred the choice via seamless branching as the version I have seen was also the 2:35.1. I also have noticed that the non IMAX scenes have edge enhancement which can get distracting at times.

Later everyone
Brian Sallot

Re: Off topic.

U2 3D was shot with the Sony Fusion 3D Camera System. That is a pair of Sony HDCF950 HD cameras to record 3D. This is the system that James Cameron developed and shot Aliens of the Deep and Ghosts of the Abyss with. It is a 1920 X 1080 resolution system.

Doug

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I agree w/ this to some extent as well after seeing TDK on BD 2x now -- and in a true IMAX venue once, which nobody should think the BD's VAR presentation comes particularly close to recreating (unless one has a setup to match and then suffer the consequences of the BD's PQ limitations among other things, IMHO ).

On my 53" RPTV, while the EE halos do not exactly jump out at me (like those on some DVDs), I do agree w/ some that the EE processing in general has lent a relatively hard edged, digital look to images. Images often look sharp in a way that's not natural, detailed and true like on other high quality BD titles (or certain high quality shots/scenes on many titles, including many of the IMAX shots/scenes on TDK itself). However, I'd also add that this aspect is probably not as bothersome on TDK (at least for my 53" setup) as it would be on certain other films due to the nature of the film and its themes, ie. in some ways, it feels a bit like stylized use of film grain and other processing techniques that work for the film rather than necessarily against it. I haven't heard/read Nolan's definitive word on the matter, but for all we know, maybe this look is partially intended for exactly that reason (and partly also due to the technical limitations involved w/ IMAX presentation and processing). Afterall, it does seem like Nolan is one of those directors who'd care enough to not let such things slip through completely unnoticed. For instance, how many commercially successful directors would actually spend the 2-1/2 hours doing a BD-Live chat event like he has afterall? And he's also known to dislike any unnecessary processing on his films. Of course, this is all just me wondering out loud about this.

_Man_

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Hah...fantastic.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

In my opinion, since the 35mm sections were apparently shot "open matte", the IMAX version would have worked better being 100% 1.77 aspect ratio. The problem is not that the IMAX scenes are full screen, it's that on occasion, shots randomly change from 2.35 to 1.77, thus distracting people and making them aware of watching a technical process rather than an involving story. The problem is that they kept the 2.35 ratio (for the imax version) on the rest of the scenes. I think it's not an artistic intent, it was made on purpose so that people can make the difference between regular 35mm shots and the Imax shots. (ie they won't have to guess which scenes are shot in Imax, and which are not). It has nothing to do with the right way to tell the story, and everything to do with showing off.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

They weren't. They were shot with anamorphic lenses. The approach you're suggesting could not implemented, because there is no way to "open up" those scenes.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Open matte would imply that Nolan shot the 35mm scenes in Super35, which definitely was not the case. Nolan does not shoot in Super35: he prefers to shoot with anamorphic lenses.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I see. Super 35 should probably have been a better bet thought, allowing for a nice IMAX transfert without changing ratio.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Having watched the BD again, I really wished they would have just used the 35mm footage and integrated the IMAX scenes...this would have given the image a much more natural, film-like look to such scenes. The 35mm scenes on the BD do look quite processed.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I just watched this again as well and the 35mm scenes still looked great to me overall. They do look a bit processed, but it does not bother me personaly and in a sense fits the material. I actualy think the processed look was done on purpose and was artistic intent. Looks great to me.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

You may be right since they used the IMAX transfer, but I much prefer the way Batman Begins looks (although the BD may contain some slight filtering).

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Not really. IMAX's raving about its DMR processing notwithstanding, you can't add resolution to an image, and that's where the biggest problem with Super35 comes into play: depending on the film stock used, you could wind up with dinner plate size grain, or with digital "smoothing" by DMR, edge haloes may crop up and you may lose some of the fine detail that was already there.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I see, anamorphic is more complicated to light and shoot, but if you take the time, you indeed get better results, at a price. I would be satisfied with just a mini movie of the IMAX scenes thought, this should have a huge rewatchability factor.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

The aspect ratio change was a nice feature. But I'm sure that some where down the line a version of The Dark Knight will come out with a consisted 2:40:1 ratio.

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

This thread is a bit frustrating, isn't it?

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

This thread is an annoyance.