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post #421 of 600
12/6/08 at 8:53am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
The issues with edge enhancements and halos is greatly exaggerated. Are they there? Yes...

And therein lies the problem, the fact that they are there at all when other recent Blu-rays like THE INCREDIBLE HULK and TROPIC THUNDER don't have halos and an edgy, processed look like this. There's simply no excuse for THE DARK KNIGHT not to look as film-like as titles like the ones I've mentioned.

Vincent
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post #422 of 600
12/6/08 at 9:47am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Except that the edge haloes are probably inherent in the IMAX DMR process. Has anyone confirmed any haloing in the IMAX footage?
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post #423 of 600
12/6/08 at 9:53am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
The EE and halos are not neccessarily the problem- they are the symptoms of the problem which is that the bulk of the film has been needlessly and deteriously manipulated. The extent to which manipulation of this level is going to be bothersome is likely proportional to the enthusiasm one has for the shifting AR. The people with CH set ups will likely be the ones viewing this on the largest home screens and with the narrowest of viewing angles. I doubt many with a fixed width display (any rear view or flat screen) will be using a greater than 60" (diagonal) size screen, and likely a wider viewing angle than 1.5 screen widths. Because of the circumstances, these people are not likely to be overly bothered by the processing and are more likely to appreciate seeing the screen fill up with more live picture periodically. I know I would be thrilled at that prospect if I was forced to see lbx bars with ever 2.40:1 title I spun.

MOST FP owners are not using CIH, so the majority of them are using "fixed width" displays and these are all going to be over 60".
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post #424 of 600
12/6/08 at 9:57am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P
And therein lies the problem, the fact that they are there at all when other recent Blu-rays like THE INCREDIBLE HULK and TROPIC THUNDER don't have halos and an edgy, processed look like this. There's simply no excuse for THE DARK KNIGHT not to look as film-like as titles like the ones I've mentioned.

Vincent


This only bothers each individual as much as you let it. There is NOTHING we can do about it with the version coming out Tues. Warner/Nolan may or may not release a dif version in the future (I doubt it though given Warners track record) with no EE, but how about we make the most of what we got. Would you rather watch the SD-DVD? The BR is a BIG improvement over that. I am not going to dwell on one minor issue in light of everything this disc does well.
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post #425 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:01am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Except that the edge haloes are probably inherent in the IMAX DMR process. Has anyone confirmed any haloing in the IMAX footage?

From what I've been reading people are saying that the "haloing" is only showing up on the 35mm portions of the film and are a result of the DMR processing. The thing is if this DMR processing is responsible for the haloing then why weren't there more reports of it when the film was seen in the proper venue? You would think the "haloing" would have stuck out like a sore thumb on a something as large as an IMAX screen. Makes me question the validity of the arguments that any supposed "haloing" is a result of the DMR processing. Apparently, the IMAX shots are unaffected and look good.
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post #426 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:07am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd smith
This only bothers each individual as much as you let it. There is NOTHING we can do about it with the version coming out Tues. Warner/Nolan may or may not release a dif version in the future (I doubt it though given Warners track record) with no EE, but how about we make the most of what we got. Would you rather watch the SD-DVD? The BR is a BIG improvement over that. I am not going to dwell on one minor issue in light of everything this disc does well.
That might be good for you, but that doesn't mean everybody else has to follow that approach. Let's respect that and stop telling others how they should accept this release. I disagree with certain opinions regarding this release about the visual defects, but they have a right to expess that opinion without being told to "make the most of what we got". Furthermore, the same applies to those that see these defects as an intrusion to their viewing experience, but have expressed their views to such a degree that it becomes insulting to those that don't share that POV.






Crawdaddy
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post #427 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:17am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd smith
This only bothers each individual as much as you let it. There is NOTHING we can do about it with the version coming out Tues. Warner/Nolan may or may not release a dif version in the future (I doubt it though given Warners track record) with no EE, but how about we make the most of what we got. Would you rather watch the SD-DVD? The BR is a BIG improvement over that. I am not going to dwell on one minor issue in light of everything this disc does well.

People are not only supposed to be satisfied with the non-theatrical ratio that this film is being presented in, now they should also be satisfied with any picture quality issues that this release may be suffering from. Good one.
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post #428 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:18am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
People are not only supposed to be satisfied with the non-theatrical ratio that this film is being presented in, now they should also be satisfied with any picture quality issues that this release may be suffering from. Good one.
Can we stop it?
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post #429 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:31am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Can we stop it?

I've been trying hard to limit my comments in here, but some of this stuff makes it extremely hard to keep silent. Sorry.
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post #430 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:39am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
People are not only supposed to be satisfied with the non-theatrical ratio that this film is being presented in, now they should also be satisfied with any picture quality issues that this release may be suffering from. Good one.

You missed my point, but you have missed many in this thread. Out of respect for Roberts request this is the last post I will make about this topic.
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post #431 of 600
12/6/08 at 11:03am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd smith
You missed my point, but you have missed many in this thread. Out of respect for Roberts request this is the last post I will make about this topic.

He said stop, so l"ll stop.
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post #432 of 600
12/6/08 at 11:46am

Pay attention!

Moviemaking Technology

From IMAX:
HOW DO YOU MAKE 35MM MEET THE IMAX STANDARD?
The image on a 35mm film frame is comprised of a fine grain structure like that of all photographic images. This grain when projected on to the IMAX screen looks like a TV channel with bad reception. IMAX DMR removes this grain while preserving the quality of the underlying image making what you see on the screen crystal clear.

DIGITALLY RE-MASTERED, REFINED, AND RESIZED!
To create the brightness and clarity that audiences have come to expect from The IMAX Experience®, IMAX uses a proprietary computer program to make the images sharper than they were originally, while colors are adjusted for the unique technically superior characteristics of the IMAX screen.
All you have too do is read too understand what has happen too this title on BD.
-------------------------------
Even if you can't "see" EE & DNR from your normal seating distance, the film will have a digital look & will have lost detail.
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post #433 of 600
12/6/08 at 11:54am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Makes me question the validity of the arguments that any supposed "haloing" is a result of the DMR processing. Apparently, the IMAX shots are unaffected and look good.
Exactly. The only shots proceed by DMR are the 35mm shots to bring them up to snuff with the IMAX shots. IMAX photography would not require such processing, since the purpose of DMR is to reduce grain to approximately the level of native IMAX film. When you blow up a 35mm element to 15/70, the grain will get blown up as well, which is precisely the reason for DMR. Anyone who's seen a 70mm "blowup" from the 70s and 80s will know exactly what I'm talking about.

Your assumption that there would be complaints about edge haloing from the viewing public @ the time of release assumes that the public would know what to look for. As has been said time and again, 99% of the public will not know what the fuss is about. As someone who has seen @ least a couple of IMAX DMR titles, EE would be entirely dependent on who's overseeing the processing. FWIW, I saw Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix in IMAX with the 3-D segment, and the only place EE was evident was in the end credits.
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post #434 of 600
12/6/08 at 1:02pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Your assumption that there would be complaints about edge haloing from the viewing public @ the time of release assumes that the public would know what to look for. As has been said time and again, 99% of the public will not know what the fuss is about. As someone who has seen @ least a couple of IMAX DMR titles, EE would be entirely dependent on who's overseeing the processing. FWIW, I saw Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix in IMAX with the 3-D segment, and the only place EE was evident was in the end credits.

My assumption isn't based on the general public viewing the film. It is made more on the basis that many of the people complaining about the BD's PQ also would have seen it in an IMAX theatre. Those types of people, being deeper into movies as a hobby, are more likely to post on sites like this. I would have expected more complaints about IMAX PQ to surface in their reviews, but I hardly read anything about distracting "ringing" in reviews. If DMR caused the ringing ( and I'm not saying it didn't) then I would have expected more complaints about the PQ of IMAX showings from diehard cinephiles, because the ringing would look even more pronounced on a giant screen than it does on smaller HT screens. Yet, most of the complaints originating are about "ringing" on the BD. It just makes me wonder how valid an argument it is to blame the "ringing" on IMAX's DMR process?

I have only seen one 35mm film on IMAX. I was in Calgary and went to see an IMAX screening based on positive comments, posted on HTF, about how fantastic the experience was. I have to admit I was underwhelmed. The whole experience reminded me of those times when I would sit through my dad's home movies while he projected them on the wall, only with IMAX it was bigger. Of course, it didn't help matters that the movie I went to see (Poseidon) was, to put it mildly, disappointing.
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post #435 of 600
12/6/08 at 1:04pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Even if you can't "see" EE & DNR from your normal seating distance, the film will have a digital look & will have lost detail.
Those conclusions are yours: the article doesn't say it will have a digital look, nor that the picture has lost detail.

This is the theatrical experience you're talking about, isn't it?


Cees
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post #436 of 600
12/6/08 at 2:09pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

All those who have seen multiple IMAX DMR presentations, please raise your hands.





*sound of crickets chirping*



That's what I thought. There is no "digital" look to a DMR'd film. You may see edge enhancement here and there, but it still looks like film, because it IS film. It has been processed digitally, but is ultimately output to a film internegative for duplication. You don't see digital artifacting in the same way as on a video transfer.

The most "digital" looking IMAX conversions I've seen were originated digitally: The Polar Express, Beauty and the Beast and Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.
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post #437 of 600
12/6/08 at 4:46pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
From what I've been reading people are saying that the "haloing" is only showing up on the 35mm portions of the film and are a result of the DMR processing. The thing is if this DMR processing is responsible for the haloing then why weren't there more reports of it when the film was seen in the proper venue? You would think the "haloing" would have stuck out like a sore thumb on a something as large as an IMAX screen. Makes me question the validity of the arguments that any supposed "haloing" is a result of the DMR processing. Apparently, the IMAX shots are unaffected and look good.
Probably because most people were too busy enjoying the movie...
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post #438 of 600
12/6/08 at 6:35pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Over on AICN, they hsve a recap of a Bd release party or something like it, in which Chris Nolan showed up and did some Q&A with the audience.I found one of the responses to be truly ironic
Quote:
'Shooting in IMAX is about "clarity" and "sharpness" not being big. It's about providing a "sense of the screen disappearing."
I agree, Mr Nolan...which is one reason I find the (current) edgy, letterbox constrained Bd release to be a big disappointment.
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post #439 of 600
12/6/08 at 7:31pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
From what I've been reading people are saying that the "haloing" is only showing up on the 35mm portions of the film and are a result of the DMR processing. The thing is if this DMR processing is responsible for the haloing then why weren't there more reports of it when the film was seen in the proper venue? You would think the "haloing" would have stuck out like a sore thumb on a something as large as an IMAX screen. Makes me question the validity of the arguments that any supposed "haloing" is a result of the DMR processing. Apparently, the IMAX shots are unaffected and look good.


Projected film has a wider latitude from dark to light than video, projected or other wise. It maybe that the EE is more difficult to see in that added latitude of the film presentation.

Doug
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post #440 of 600
12/6/08 at 9:42pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
All those who have seen multiple IMAX DMR presentations, please raise your hands.

I've seen quite a few since 2002:

Matrix Reloaded x4
Matrix Revolutions
Batman Begins x2
Superman Returns x2
I Am Legend
Kung-Fu Panda
TDK x2

and probably another 2-3 films that I can't quite recall at the moment.

My local Imax theater is a conventional flat screen (roughly 80'x60'), with a kick-ass sound system.

I don't think I've ever been distracted greatly to the point of being pulled out of the film by any artifact introduced by the DMR process that blows up the 35mm film source to the IMAX film proportions.

Okay, back to the crickets chirping...
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post #441 of 600
12/6/08 at 10:13pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
All those who have seen multiple IMAX DMR presentations, please raise your hands.
I've seen several over the years including most of the titles, Patrick has mentioned as well as Spiderwick Chronicles, Beowulf and I think Speed Racer. Also, everytime I attend an IMAX showing there are plenty of people in the audience so demand is high for these type of showings.
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post #442 of 600
12/7/08 at 9:15am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
All those who have seen multiple IMAX DMR presentations, please raise your hands.





*sound of crickets chirping*



That's what I thought. There is no "digital" look to a DMR'd film. You may see edge enhancement here and there, but it still looks like film, because it IS film. It has been processed digitally, but is ultimately output to a film internegative for duplication. You don't see digital artifacting in the same way as on a video transfer.

The most "digital" looking IMAX conversions I've seen were originated digitally: The Polar Express, Beauty and the Beast and Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

In addition to Dark Knight, I've seen Attack of the Clones, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and Harry Potter 4 at IMAX.
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post #443 of 600
12/7/08 at 1:09pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I've only seen Dark Knight and the very first DMR movie, Apollo 13 which was completely modified (the frame was expanded vertically) and truncated because of the now-solved problem of shorter length IMAX reels.
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post #444 of 600
12/7/08 at 1:43pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
I've only seen Dark Knight and the very first DMR movie, Apollo 13 which was completely modified (the frame was expanded vertically) and truncated because of the now-solved problem of shorter length IMAX reels.
Yeah watched that title at Universal City when it played there at their IMAX theater several years ago.
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post #445 of 600
12/7/08 at 2:18pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I saw star wars episode 2, superman returns, spider-man 3, and dark knight in imax.

Jacob
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post #446 of 600
12/7/08 at 3:45pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

In addition to The Dark Knight, I saw a Spider-Man movie (can't remember which one) and Star Trek Insurrection at the local IMAX. They looked fine (though not as spectacular as TDK as there were no actual IMAX filmed scenes).
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post #447 of 600
12/7/08 at 6:31pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I haven't seen any movies in IMAX. I'd love to, but a combination of location and circumstance prevents me. I have, however, seen TDK on Blu-ray and I saw absolutely nothing to complain about. I saw a terrific, rollercoaster of a movie that's revitalised my interest in the Batman franchise and encouraged me to go back and have a look at Batman Begins again (I don't think I ever watched it properly).

The image looked terrific, especially the full-height IMAX shots. I had absolutely no problems with the changing aspect ratio and am looking forward to another viewing and a dip into the extras.
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post #448 of 600
12/9/08 at 6:45pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

My netflix copy came today and we are about 35 minutes in.
(Paused movie because kid needed attention)
The EE on this IMHO is disappointing. REALLY prevalent in MANY scenes, even in some of the imax shots oddly) and to me is distracting. (The bat-voice is also about the worst artistic choice I've experienced in years too. Putting Bale's voice through a line 6 guitar processor? (read that's what they used) Makes him sound like he's vomiting razorblades IMHO. Not intimidating at all, just really dumb) I understand Batman is intentionally using it to disguise his voice but it just sounds meh....

Too bad about the EE. I'm glad I rented it. Nowhere near reference PQ IMHO. Way too processed and edgy looking. people with visible, albeit small forcefields around them doesn't look very film-like to me.
Leger is amazing though

92" screen, Ps3, Panny ae3000 1080PJ
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post #449 of 600
12/9/08 at 7:31pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

its weird how some people see stuff and others do not. some say its the greatest picture ever and some say its very awful.. looks fine to me.
I wonder if its the player, tv or something? why are people seeing differnt things?

Jacob
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post #450 of 600
12/9/08 at 7:32pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBat
its weird how some people see stuff and others do not. some say its the greatest picture ever and some say its very awful.. looks fine to me.
I wonder if its the player, tv or something? why are people seeing differnt things?
My guess would be the differences in equipment, screen size and people's ability or desire to look for flaws are the reason.
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