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The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke - Page 13

post #361 of 600
12/4/08 at 8:30am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
the lower def version IS the one that is closer to the theatrical experience
Correction: Closer to a theatrical experience. The term "the" does not apply, since there was more than one (and we know which one the director prefers).
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post #362 of 600
12/4/08 at 9:44am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
.... Nolan appears to belong to the school of thought that home cinema is not exactly the same as commercial cinema AND therefore he is free to shape the release (over which he has say, the BD) in a way HE thinks best presents his film, most likely influenced by what he believes the majority of BD owners have as displays, despite what anyone else may think. As consumers, we have no right to demand a presentation that accords with our wishes (we don't own it). We only have the right to accept or reject what IS offered (and express our disappointment/happiness).

The issue at stake remains the same--ownership vs expectations. I may not always be happy with what the filmmaker chooses to present in home video releases (I can enumerate any number of such examples) but I will still defend the right of filmmakers to make that choice whenever such is possible. This applies to any artistic endeavour.
Somehow you make the high-lighted point seem trivial. Now Mr Nolan will look pretty silly if most consumers decided they wanted the same or something closely approximating what they experienced in the cinema and decided NOT to buy the title en masse.
I think where movies are concerned "art" should take a back seat to business and it's just smart business to give the consumer what they want...IE, at least one version of what they saw in the theater!!!
Sure would avoid threads like this and many unhappy customers, IMO.
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post #363 of 600
12/4/08 at 9:55am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Now Mr Nolan will look pretty silly if most consumers decided they wanted the same or something closely approximating what they experienced in the cinema and decided NOT to buy the title en masse.
I don't think it will happen in this case. I simply don't think the vast majority of people will object to the AR changes.
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post #364 of 600
12/4/08 at 11:12am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I don't think it will happen in this case. I simply don't think the vast majority of people will object to the AR changes.

Bingo! This is only a small (but vocal) group that won't be buying the Blu-Ray because of something so small like this. I doubt we'll be hearing anything about this other than on some message boards.
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post #365 of 600
12/4/08 at 11:16am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Now Mr Nolan will look pretty silly if most consumers decided they wanted the same or something closely approximating what they experienced in the cinema and decided NOT to buy the title en masse.
I think where movies are concerned "art" should take a back seat to business and it's just smart business to give the consumer what they want...IE, at least one version of what they saw in the theater!!!
Man, doesn't art take enough of a back seat to commerce as it is?

Anyway, I highly doubt that the changing aspect ratios will drive people off. Most consumers aren't nearly as exacting about such things as us (we are not a representative sample!), and a fair number of us are embracing this presentation. Those that do notice it will probably accept the explanation that this is the best approximation of the director's preferred version, especially with all the IMAX-related making-of extras on the disc.
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post #366 of 600
12/4/08 at 11:37am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I don't think it will happen in this case. I simply don't think the vast majority of people will object to the AR changes.
Perhaps. But you missed the point. Buyers shouldn't be forced to necessarily make that evaluation. It should be as simple as "what you see is what you get" IMO. If the director/producer/studio decides to alter the above for whatever reason, they can add the changes on a separate disc of bonus features.
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post #367 of 600
12/4/08 at 11:59am

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Perhaps. But you missed the point. Buyers shouldn't be forced to necessarily make that evaluation. It should be as simple as "what you see is what you get" IMO. If the director/producer/studio decides to alter the above for whatever reason, they can add the changes on a separate disc of bonus features.
Remember that a studio who releases a product is a business, and the goal of business is to maximize profit, and they are beholden to the shareholders. What you so cavalierly describe as just "adding a separate discs" of course adds cost to the production. And if they passed the cost on to consumers, we'd get another group complaining "why did they include an extra disc and charge me more $$$". And of course higher prices translates to lower sales (just read other parts of this forum where people deride higher priced BDs). And more SKUs (if you're going to advertise separate releases) just causes more confusion for resellers and consumers. Maybe that confusion is okay for DVD as it is now mass-market, but for a niche market like BD, confusion is not a good thing.

So you see, you can't please everyone all the time. What they did was, in consultation with the director, made the decision that made the most sense to them given the fiscal responsibilities they have to their shareholders.
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post #368 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:20pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

How many DVDs and Blu-ray discs already include a second (or third!) disc just for a "digital copy"? I don't imagine there are many people concerned enough about video and audio quality to purchase a movie on Blu-ray yet who are particularly interested in watching the same movie on a 3-inch iPod screen with earphones.

Besides, a second disc wouldn't even have been necessary, because there's more than enough room on a 50 GB Blu-ray disc to have included both versions via seamless branching. Programming the branching would have taken some resources, yes, but it would have been minimal in this particular case, because the differences between the two versions are very straightforward.

And then Warner could have advertised "special IMAX version" as a bonus feature, giving them one more bullet point for the press release. Universal did it for the Apollo 13 DVD (admittedly, that was also a different edit of the film), and I'd like to have seen the same template used for The Dark Knight.

For all the talk about art vs. business, and who has the right to demand what, is there anyone who wouldn't have been perfectly happy with a Blu-ray release that simply included BOTH versions of the film?
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post #369 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:21pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo Medina
Remember that a studio who releases a product is a business, and the goal of business is to maximize profit, and they are beholden to the shareholders. What you so cavalierly describe as just "adding a separate discs" of course adds cost to the production. And if they passed the cost on to consumers, we'd get another group complaining "why did they include an extra disc and charge me more $$$". And of course higher prices translates to lower sales (just read other parts of this forum where people deride higher priced BDs). And more SKUs (if you're going to advertise separate releases) just causes more confusion for resellers and consumers. Maybe that confusion is okay for DVD as it is now mass-market, but for a niche market like BD, confusion is not a good thing.

So you see, you can't please everyone all the time. What they did was, in consultation with the director, made the decision that made the most sense to them given the fiscal responsibilities they have to their shareholders.

Except that it doesn't seem to matter to them when they stuff a useless digital copy in the release and then charge extra for that. Your economic argument doesn't wash with me, considering that the TDK BD set includes a useless digital copy. If I have to pay extra for a disc then give me one that I will use, meaning the scope version: not some chunk of plastic landfill that I will never use.
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post #370 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:23pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo Medina
Remember that a studio who releases a product is a business, and the goal of business is to maximize profit, and they are beholden to the shareholders. What you so cavalierly describe as just "adding a separate discs" of course adds cost to the production. And if they passed the cost on to consumers, we'd get another group complaining "why did they include an extra disc and charge me more $$$". And of course higher prices translates to lower sales (just read other parts of this forum where people deride higher priced BDs). And more SKUs (if you're going to advertise separate releases) just causes more confusion for resellers and consumers. Maybe that confusion is okay for DVD as it is now mass-market, but for a niche market like BD, confusion is not a good thing.

So you see, you can't please everyone all the time. What they did was, in consultation with the director, made the decision that made the most sense to them given the fiscal responsibilities they have to their shareholders.
But you can.....by simply releasing the title the way most people viewed it.
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post #371 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:25pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
But you can.....by simply releasing the title the way most people viewed it.
If Nolan feels the movie he made should be shown in a specific way, why should he care what anyone thinks or worry about how most people viewed it?

It's been said before but the people not buying this because of the changing aspect ratios are a drop in an ocean so he WB and Nolan do not have to worry about the changing AR effecting sales.
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post #372 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:27pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Because he presumably would like them to exchange money for a copy of it.
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post #373 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:29pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Because he presumably would like them to exchange money for a copy of it.
But the number of sales that those people represent is too small for anyone to care about.
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post #374 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:32pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
But the number of sales that those people represent is too small for anyone to care about.

Nice assumption. How do you know?
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post #375 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:32pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Nobody said that Nolan or Warner has to care about those people; what Carlo said was that you can't please them. That is certainly not true in this case, as a dual-ratio release would have been perfectly satisfactory for all consumers and have required minimal cost/effort on Warner's part.
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post #376 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:36pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Nice assumption. How do you know?
Of course it's an assumption but do you see that many people even here or AVS saying that they won't buy it?
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post #377 of 600
12/4/08 at 12:52pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
Of course it's an assumption but do you see that many people even here or AVS saying that they won't buy it?

True enough; however, there is no way to tell how many of the silent majority may skip buying it. The numbers will never reflect how many potential sales will be lost because of Nolan's ego. Warner could have satisfied his ego and still gained the extra revenue, small or otherwise, if they had made sure this BD set was complete. BD sales are small enough as it is. Why alienate even a portion of that niche market? It's dumb.
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post #378 of 600
12/4/08 at 1:01pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Perhaps. But you missed the point. Buyers shouldn't be forced to necessarily make that evaluation. It should be as simple as "what you see is what you get" IMO. If the director/producer/studio decides to alter the above for whatever reason, they can add the changes on a separate disc of bonus features.
I didn't "miss the point". I specifically addressed the point you raised, which was of people not buying the title "en masse". I said I don't think that will happen. Talking about what you think should have been done is a different point.
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post #379 of 600
12/4/08 at 1:29pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

As is often the case, many people saying they won't buy the title for so-and-so reason weren't buying it in the first place. And many people saying they won't buy it for that reason end up buying it after all.

Don't think those posts are a true reflection in any way of what will happen in the real market.

Anyway, this seems to be another of those slightly confusing matters, but it will certainly not stop me from ordering this title on BD. It's a movie I want to own and I want it on a HD-medium.


Cees
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post #380 of 600
12/4/08 at 2:04pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
True enough; however, there is no way to tell how many of the silent majority may skip buying it. The numbers will never reflect how many potential sales will be lost because of Nolan's ego. Warner could have satisfied his ego and still gained the extra revenue, small or otherwise, if they had made sure this BD set was complete. BD sales are small enough as it is. Why alienate even a portion of that niche market? It's dumb.
I've been through too many of these type of complaints about various software releases to put much stock in thinking these complaints are going to negatively affect Warner's sales enough to matter to them. Especially, not this time of the year, when many of these discs will be gifts by people not in the know about the specifics here.





Crawdaddy
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post #381 of 600
12/4/08 at 2:15pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Nobody said that Nolan or Warner has to care about those people; what Carlo said was that you can't please them. That is certainly not true in this case, as a dual-ratio release would have been perfectly satisfactory for all consumers and have required minimal cost/effort on Warner's part.
Incorrect. A second Blu Ray disc with a second high-def transfer would cost WB significantly more than a digital copy which is on a standard DVD and costs pennies to make. Don't forget the HD mastering costs as well.

As for the seamless branching option, there are already some reports that expressed a wish that a higher bit rate were devoted to the BD transfer because there are so many features on the disc. So to do a seamless branch and maintain the already low (by some reviewer's standards, I haven't seen it yet so I reserve the right of judgment until I own it) would have meant putting the extra features on a second BD disc, again costing WB more money.

That would either reduce their profit margin on an already niche format, or they'd pass the cost on to the consumer and people would complain.
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post #382 of 600
12/4/08 at 2:17pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

How many people who DO NOT VISIT boards like this actually know about the shifting AR?

I work in a 'big box' store, and INTENTIONALLY mention the shifting AR to anyone who is interested in buying the BD, but didn't even know it wasn't released yet. It's on a lot of Christmas shopping lists and new BD adopters looking for something cool to watch.

The reaction is the same almost every time I bring it up:

"Oh really? Interesting!"

"Wow that should be something."

Or something to those effects. Never a negative response.

So if non-forum users don't know, and the few I've talked to about it aren't swayed, there's no reason to believe that AR is a reason NOT to buy this title.

And now, back to the munchies....
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post #383 of 600
12/4/08 at 2:28pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Somehow you make the high-lighted point seem trivial. Now Mr Nolan will look pretty silly if most consumers decided they wanted the same or something closely approximating what they experienced in the cinema and decided NOT to buy the title en masse.
I think where movies are concerned "art" should take a back seat to business and it's just smart business to give the consumer what they want...IE, at least one version of what they saw in the theater!!!
Sure would avoid threads like this and many unhappy customers, IMO.
It is NOT trivial. It is, in fact, at the crux of the issue. We, the consumers, do NOT own the intellectual property. We have NO RIGHT to be satisfied. We only have the right to choose to buy or not to buy the offered presentation. We have the right to moan, gnash our teeth, stomp our feet, scream, shout obscenities, foam at the mouth and so on. Doesn't change the fact that the owners of the property have the right to release it in the form they wish--REGARDLESS of whether any specific individual is "pleased". Their choice may prove to be a bad one from a business stand point--still doesn't matter. It is THEIR choice to make. Should they revisit that choice in the future, that again will be THEIR prerogative, not ours.

It really isn't that hard to understand. They get to choose the release format--we get to choose to like it or not. End of story. No one is being told they have NO RIGHT to complain. But none of us has a right to be satisfied.
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post #384 of 600
12/4/08 at 2:51pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I've been through too many of these type of complaints about various software releases to put much stock in thinking these complaints are going to negatively affect Warner's sales enough to matter to them. Especially, not this time of the year, when many of these discs will be gifts by people not in the know about the specifics here.
Agreed. The people who will not be buying the Blu-ray for the reasons given in this thread are a tiny minority.

They're also unlikely to win many converts. They're in the odd position of having to trash a director (with complaints about his "ego" and lack of "professionalism") whose film they apparently love so much that they're devoting hours to complaining online about its treatment on Blu-ray. Most members of the Blu-ray-consuming public don't share that level of passion (or irony).
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post #385 of 600
12/4/08 at 3:00pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
They're also unlikely to win many converts. They're in the odd position of having to trash a director (with complaints about his "ego" and lack of "professionalism") whose film they apparently love so much that they're devoting hours to complaining online about its treatment on Blu-ray. Most members of the Blu-ray-consuming public don't share that level of passion (or irony).

Agreed that this has little relevance to the movie-watching public in general, but this is hardly anything new for film enthusiasts or the HTF. Kubrick or Storaro, anyone?
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post #386 of 600
12/4/08 at 3:03pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Agreed that this has little relevance to the movie-watching public in general, but this is hardly anything new for film enthusiasts or the HTF. Kubrick or Storaro, anyone?
I think you may have missed my point. I wasn't referring to the movie-watching public in general.
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post #387 of 600
12/4/08 at 3:07pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin

After reading all of this thread, I need one of those icons of the smiley guy drinking a beer.
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post #388 of 600
12/4/08 at 3:31pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke



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post #389 of 600
12/4/08 at 4:45pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

The BS, excuse me, BD is only OAR for IMAX.
The BD is not OAR for the theatrical release.
So the BD is the IMAX release, end of story.

I believe the theatrical, excise me OAR, double excuse me, widescreen only version (OK? acceptable?) will be released on HDM. B4 or w/the next Nolan Batman flick.

I can believe the friggin SD DVD gets both!
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post #390 of 600
12/4/08 at 4:46pm

Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Somehow you make the high-lighted point seem trivial. Now Mr Nolan will look pretty silly if most consumers decided they wanted the same or something closely approximating what they experienced in the cinema and decided NOT to buy the title en masse.
I think where movies are concerned "art" should take a back seat to business and it's just smart business to give the consumer what they want...IE, at least one version of what they saw in the theater!!!
Sure would avoid threads like this and many unhappy customers, IMO.


I'm not sure that "art" and movies really go in the same sentence very often, mainly because art rarely makes money.

Doug
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