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post #31 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

The entire issue of early wide-screen aspect ratios seems to be mis-understood at the studios. I recently had quite a debate with someone at Universal regarding the correct AR for two Abbott and Costello films. They insisted 1.37 was correct, and I proved with some original documentation that one was 1.85 and the other 2.1.

The common error is to assume that if the image is on the film, it is intended to be seen in that ratio. It happens in repertory showings on film, and in mastering for DVD.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Columbia Best Pictures Collection (11 Feature Films)
post #32 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
The entire issue of early wide-screen aspect ratios seems to be mis-understood at the studios. I recently had quite a debate with someone at Universal regarding the correct AR for two Abbott and Costello films. They insisted 1.37 was correct, and I proved with some original documentation that one was 1.85 and the other 2.1.

The common error is to assume that if the image is on the film, it is intended to be seen in that ratio. It happens in repertory showings on film, and in mastering for DVD.

It's been 55 years since things changed. It amazes me that it's such an issue.

I regularly attended revival screenings from 1998-2003 at the Tampa Theatre, and they showed films open matte time and time again. It was horribly frustrating. The audience would actually laugh, on occasion, when lights and tops of sets were visible. PSYCHO, CABARET, and so many others. They only got it right with 'Scope films, and even then you could see the splice flashes consistently. Very distracting.
post #33 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
Well, Colin, why would the same studio, Columbia, provide a letterboxed transfer to TCM? Using one's eyes tells the story, and thank you Bob Furmanek for once again providing irrefutable proof. Some people don't want to believe irrefutable proof, as has been shown time and again, but these old exhibitor magazines don't lie. As I said, On The Waterfront frames perfectly in widescreen and has way too much extraneous headroom in Academy - but, like Night Of The Hunter (also a widescreen film only ever released in Academy), generations grew up only seeing these films on TV and home video. Yes, they can project it in Academy in revival houses, but it doesn't make it right.
Yes, it seems like others find it very hard to believe it when evidence is presented or even admit that they were wrong.

I for one, is still waiting for one of my favorite films of all-time "Night of the Hunter" to be released in its OAR.






Crawdaddy
post #34 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

I'm with you - the first time I saw Night Of The Hunter letterboxed on TCM I could not believe how perfect it was. Then I did what I did with Waterfront and went back to the old Hunter DVD and compared - and it was so obvious that it was open matte. I'd never noticed it before because I'd only seen Hunter on TV and in revival houses, but once you've seen it letterboxed it's so obvious. I'm praying for a proper DVD release.
post #35 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

I just heard from a projectionist who ran OTW in 35mm a few years ago. He test ran it in 1.37 and found "many lights on the top of the church interior in one scene."

He switched to 1.85 aperture plates and lenses and said the compositions were perfect.
post #36 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

I made a visit to LA back in september. I went on the sony tour.. they had in their lobby, two walls with the oscars of the best pictures that they had won.. it was really cool. I just thought that I would add this to this threaed.

Jacob
post #37 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Thanks to Bob Furmanek for setting the record straight.

Quote:
I regularly attended revival screenings from 1998-2003 at the Tampa Theatre, and they showed films open matte time and time again. It was horribly frustrating. The audience would actually laugh, on occasion, when lights and tops of sets were visible. PSYCHO, CABARET, and so many others. They only got it right with 'Scope films, and even then you could see the splice flashes consistently. Very distracting.

I hear you, Mark. Several years back a local theater ran a revival of NORTH BY NORTHWEST in academy ratio and the showing was ruined by numerous shots of boom mics and other equipment. This occured after I called theater management to complain about an earlier showing of STRANGERS ON A TRAIN that was run widescreen in error thus cutting off a significant portion of the picture. Needless to say that theater is no longer running classic films.
post #38 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve...O
Thanks to Bob Furmanek for setting the record straight.



I hear you, Mark. Several years back a local theater ran a revival of NORTH BY NORTHWEST in academy ratio and the showing was ruined by numerous shots of boom mics and other equipment. This occured after I called theater management to complain about an earlier showing of STRANGERS ON A TRAIN that was run widescreen in error thus cutting off a significant portion of the picture. Needless to say that theater is no longer running classic films.

Interesting. A friend of mine in Ohio is fresh out of college and I've been trying to get her to see more classic films. A local theatre ran a bunch oldies this past year, and I encouraged her to see N By NW. She told me the same story as you just relayed.....lights and microphones and laughter.
post #39 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

That's terrible, it really spoils the movie. The studios really should specify the intended ratio on these 35mm prints.

But if they can't even get the DVD ratio correct, I'm not optimistic...
post #40 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
That's terrible, it really spoils the movie. The studios really should specify the intended ratio on these 35mm prints.

But if they can't even get the DVD ratio correct, I'm not optimistic...

The studios should hard matte everything, so that there's ONE way to project it. Problem solved.

You're right, it ruined her experience with N By NW, which she said was just "OK." I believe that a proper presentation would have altered her enjoyment level completely.
post #41 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Yes, it seems like others find it very hard to believe it when evidence is presented or even admit that they were wrong.

No, I'll admit I'm wrong - I just find it to be bizarre in this case. Like I said, where was the outrage when the first DVD came out years ago? Why would Columbia make a WS transfer for TV and use a FS transfer for the DVD? The whole thing makes no sense. This forum goes banana bonkers when some obscure craptastic flick is MAR, but no one cared until now that a classic used the wrong ratio?

It just seems strange to me...
post #42 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

I'd say that when the first DVD came out no one was certain about the transition to widescreen (I'm talking about members of this and other boards) - now they are, thanks to people like Bob and Jack doing the research and posting the pertinent information. Why didn't people go banana bonkers at Night Of The Hunter - because until TCM started showing it letterboxed, it didn't occur to anyone it was wrong, even though the year should have told them. The Bad Seed is another example. And I'm sure there are others. In fact, it would be an interesting thing to research - how many DVDs of 1954 and 1955 releases are incorrectly transfered?
post #43 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

The interest in preserving the intended AR is a fairly recent occurence. I think it has to do with the fact that people have seen these films in the standard Academy ratio for the past 50 years, and assume it to be correct.

Ignorance of the history of wide-screen is quite prevalent. I've told this story elsewhere but it's worth repeating.

We were at the annual Blob-fest in Pennsylvania a few years ago. I asked the projectionist why he was running THE BLOB in 1.37. He said that it was a low-budget movie and therefore, could not possibly be composed for wide-screen. When I mentioned that some effects shots are hard-matted in the film, he grumbled that I didn't know what I was talking about and walked away.

More often than not, I find people will just ignore the facts and documentation rather than admit they could be wrong. One person went so far as to claim that nothing in the trades or studio files can be trusted. At that point, I just walked away from the discussion.
post #44 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
We were at the annual Blob-fest in Pennsylvania a few years ago. I asked the projectionist why he was running THE BLOB in 1.37. He said that it was a low-budget movie and therefore, could not possibly be composed for wide-screen.

Bob, didn't you know? Low budget movies *have* to be square! Rectangles cost more!

(wow, can't believe a projectionist told you that...actually, I can believe it, which is all the more tragic)
post #45 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I'd say that when the first DVD came out no one was certain about the transition to widescreen (I'm talking about members of this and other boards) - now they are, thanks to people like Bob and Jack doing the research and posting the pertinent information. Why didn't people go banana bonkers at Night Of The Hunter - because until TCM started showing it letterboxed, it didn't occur to anyone it was wrong, even though the year should have told them. The Bad Seed is another example. And I'm sure there are others. In fact, it would be an interesting thing to research - how many DVDs of 1954 and 1955 releases are incorrectly transfered?
You're right. Organizations like AFI has done a much better job of having some correct information regarding OAR, but that's because they have updated their site over the last few years. Also, TCM has done a pretty good job of trying to show their movies in their OAR. Hell, I remembered a number of similar questions about Shane and The Naked Jungle. Many of us are much too young to have seen these titles during their original theatrical runs so the only memories we have of them is television viewings or if we're lucky to live in LA or New York catch them at a classic film showing at a local theater.




Crawdaddy
post #46 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
The interest in preserving the intended AR is a fairly recent occurence. I think it has to do with the fact that people have seen these films in the standard Academy ratio for the past 50 years, and assume it to be correct.

Ignorance of the history of wide-screen is quite prevalent. I've told this story elsewhere but it's worth repeating.

We were at the annual Blob-fest in Pennsylvania a few years ago. I asked the projectionist why he was running THE BLOB in 1.37. He said that it was a low-budget movie and therefore, could not possibly be composed for wide-screen. When I mentioned that some effects shots are hard-matted in the film, he grumbled that I didn't know what I was talking about and walked away.

More often than not, I find people will just ignore the facts and documentation rather than admit they could be wrong. One person went so far as to claim that nothing in the trades or studio files can be trusted. At that point, I just walked away from the discussion.
Right, like I stated most of us have only seen these films on television in Academy ratio and it's because of TCM, AFI and sites like ours that real education about the OAR of certain titles are becoming known to segments of the general public. Note, I stated "segments" not "all" of the general public. Also, I wish there was one book that was published that would have all the OAR for all films, but at least the internet is being used somewhat in that regard.





Crawdaddy
post #47 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Right, like I stated most of us have only seen these films on television in Academy ratio and it's because of TCM, AFI and sites like ours that real education about the OAR of certain titles are becoming known to segments of the general public. Note, I stated "segments" not "all" of the general public. Also, I wish there was one book that was published that would have all the OAR for all films, but at least the internet is being used somewhat in that regard.





Crawdaddy


I wouldn't mind it so much if the video transfers were always genuine open matte, allowing one to matte the film using the zooms on a 16:9 tv (admittedly not very practical)), but quite a few - Deadly Mantis in particular - are zoomed in heavily

I'm sure Eric Huffsutler will come along in a minute to call me an ignorant Generation Xer...
post #48 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
No, I'll admit I'm wrong - I just find it to be bizarre in this case. Like I said, where was the outrage when the first DVD came out years ago? Why would Columbia make a WS transfer for TV and use a FS transfer for the DVD? The whole thing makes no sense. This forum goes banana bonkers when some obscure craptastic flick is MAR, but no one cared until now that a classic used the wrong ratio?

The problem is that up until the last few years-- and with some immodestly, largely due to posts like Bob F. and I have been making during that time-- no one knew any better. No one's ever done any research on this topic up until the past decade, and everyone simply forgot in the meantime.

The idea is, "there's an image on the film, show it that way," which is wrong, of course. There's a certain amount of image even on an Academy ratio film that is cropped off in the projector, but you don't see people waving their arms in the air about that.

What needs to be more carefully considered is if there is any question about a film's presentation, to go back to original documentation at the studio and barring that, in trade magazines of the day that have this information.

Originally, projectionists got their aspect ratio info from either the cardboard reel bands attached to the print, or through trade journals subscriptions that were available to them from the various theater chains they belonged to. Each magazine had practical information, including billing info, available from the studio, and magazines such as BoxOffice continued to print their aspect ratio information into the late '60s.

Since then, these methods of information have been long since abandoned and forgotten. Thankfully, there are people in a number of the studios HV departments that understand this concept and have been making considerations for such aspects in the transfer sessions.

As for ON THE WATERFRONT, I imagine that either Sony pulled the wrong master by accident, or TCM specifically asked or created a wide-screen master (since their station is not HD, it's not anamorphic).

Many of the requests a studio gets for masters are "full screen," even "pan and scan," so often the studio has a special broadcast master that is open matte, although also often zoomed-in and cropped to hide defects such as boom mics, hard mattes, etc. This type of master does no one any service, as it's not appealing to anyone who wants to see the film OAR or open matte in order to make their own decisions.

And that is the problem at hand. There are a lot of uneducated people making their own decisions because they think something "looks good" to them over something else. HV should be about what the DIRECTOR wants. If you want to do whatever you want to do with someone else's film, you might as well invest in a 35mm projector so that you can run something open matte, cropped, upside-down, or whatever. Leave DVDs out of it!
post #49 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

With 16x9 becoming the standard for home viewing, this problem is only going to get worse. Soon we'll be able to look forward to 2.35:1 films being cropped to 1.78:1, and all the foolscreen fans will be complaining either about "black bars" on the sides of the image or short, fat actors when they stretch it to "fill the screen." The fun is just beginning.

Honestly, it bugs me a bit that manufacturers are putting all these zoom, stretch, and resizing options on the new equipment. Everything should simply be "flagged" to display in the intended ratio with no options for adjustment.
post #50 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
With 16x9 becoming the standard for home viewing, this problem is only going to get worse. Soon we'll be able to look forward to 2.35:1 films being cropped to 1.78:1, and all the foolscreen fans will be complaining either about "black bars" on the sides of the image or short, fat actors when they stretch it to "fill the screen." The fun is just beginning.

Honestly, it bugs me a bit that manufacturers are putting all these zoom, stretch, and resizing options on the new equipment. Everything should simply be "flagged" to display in the intended ratio with no options for adjustment.

I found it especially bad in 2000 when the UK company Hong KOng Legends released 3 films, Snake In The Eagle's Shadow, Drunken Master and Legend Of A Fighter, cropped to 1.85:1 from 2.35:1. Since then Columbia has done a decent dvd of Snake, and a poor if 2.35:1 DM, but Legend has never had an OAR DVD and probably won't now

HKL's excuse?

"The reason we decided to re-master this movie into 16:9 format was to cater for the widest possible commercial audience. The hard-core collectors may all prefer 2:35:1, but we have found that many kids with 14, 17 and 21" television sets are amongst the most regular buyers of Jackie Chan movies.
Unfortunately, due to the tiny viewing area offered with the 2:35:1 format on smaller TV sets, we often get asked by this target audience to provide 'pan & scan' versions of our movies. As the hard-core collectors detest 'p & s' with a passion, I thought the 16:9 anamorphic/1:85:1 widescreen ratio, would be a good compromise that would appeal to both markets.

In addition, had we conformed the feature to 2:35:1 anamorphic standard, most of the nation's DVD players, are currently not equiped to handle this ratio correctly, and therefore the image would be stretched."
post #51 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Jacobson
No, I'll admit I'm wrong - I just find it to be bizarre in this case. Like I said, where was the outrage when the first DVD came out years ago? Why would Columbia make a WS transfer for TV and use a FS transfer for the DVD? The whole thing makes no sense. This forum goes banana bonkers when some obscure craptastic flick is MAR, but no one cared until now that a classic used the wrong ratio?

It just seems strange to me...

I've always been ratio sensitive, but got tired of arguing. This thread was, prior to a few recently, the last time I tried to make a case. No one agreed with me, then lo and behold the DVD was released in matted widescreen.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d-vol-2-a.html
post #52 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Thanks for the link Mark. That thread has a lot of wrong information. It's the same old misconception that wide-screen started with CinemaScope and THE ROBE in September 1953.

For the record, TORCH SONG began production on April 27, 1953 and MGM went all wide-screen earlier that month. Their specific aspect ratio was 1:75.
post #53 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Unfortunately, the above thread is a good example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Yes, SHANE was a picture that was composed for the Academy ratio and shown 1.66:1 (at that time on the biggest screen in the world at Radio City Music Hall), but Paramount freely acknowledged that in their press release. In the same release, they also talk about making sure that all future pictures are composed for their house ratio.
post #54 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
I've always been ratio sensitive, but got tired of arguing. This thread was, prior to a few recently, the last time I tried to make a case. No one agreed with me, then lo and behold the DVD was released in matted widescreen.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d-vol-2-a.html

Interesting, though I'd thought you would've mentioned Waterfront there - I thought you'd refer to an earlier discussion of its apparent widescreen roots. AFAIK, this thread is the site's first discussion of a widescreen Waterfront.

I continue to think this whole situation is weird and perplexing - like I said, given the anti-MAR furor here and elsewhere, it's strange that no one ever brought up the issue until now - but I'll mention it when I run my review of the new DVD...
post #55 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Bob and Jack, I really appreciate the research you do and especially the trade magazine scans that are posted.
post #56 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Amusing but true: when I entered "on the waterfront aspect ratio" in the search box on Yahoo, what came up first? My review from 2001! I guess that makes me the Internet's leading authority, and since I said it was 1.33:1, that proves it!
post #57 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
Bob and Jack, I really appreciate the research you do and especially the trade magazine scans that are posted.

You're most welcome Mark, glad to help set the record straight. Sharing this information is important. It certainly does no good buried in old files and dusty magazines!

Now - if the studios would like to hire a couple of knowledgable consultants - I'm interested!
post #58 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Ironically, my google search turned up this thread. Sadly, it also turned up a number of inquiries about the film's ratio where the answer was given "1.37."

The venerable Glenn Erickson got it right in review, though.
post #59 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Jacobson
How does that sheet indicate that Columbia was widescreen only? It states that the films were being shot for display in ratios from 1.33:1 to 1.85:1. That makes no indication that the films were specifically composed for one AR or the other, just that they could be shown either way...
I agree.

Also Kazan wanted to make On the Water Front at Fox, but Darryl Zanuck didn't think it was appropriate material for a CinemaScope film.

It seems peculiar to me that Kazan would take the film to Columbia, then shoot it in a widescreen format. He may as well just made it at Fox.
post #60 of 64

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Columbia Pictures: The Best Picture Collection

From Variety, "The Show Business Bible."

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