*** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread - Page 4

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

Yep and How many films now have , going back to Brosnan, have we had Dench Calling Bond a Dinosaur, yelling at him for Breaking the rules, Threatening to revoke his OO status, sicking the Dogs on him to reel him in, then telling everyone that he's the guy to believe in ?

I think it's time for her to move on.

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I've said the exact same things, Dave. I actually liked Dench in the part at first -- but now she's becoming stuck in a scratchy-sounding groove and needs to vanish. I'm really surprised that even though the series was trying to go for a complete re-boot, Dench was brought back after her Brosnan appearances. But then again, now that I am beginning to understand Broccoli's agenda, maybe I see what the real deal is.

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I haven't seen Quantum of Solace yet but I feel that how Judi Dench's M treats Daniel Craig is VERY different to how she treated Pierce Brosnan. With Brosnan, I always felt she respected him but didn't much like him, thus the sexist dinosaur quips. With Craig, I felt she was almost motherly towards him and grew to care for him. For example, she NEVER would have left Craig as a prisoner in Die Another Day as she did to Brosnan. Again this is without having seen Quantum of Solace but that to me was very apparent in Casino Royale.

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Finally saw QoS today and while it definitely wasn't as good as Casino Royale, I also don't think it was nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. Many of the comments I read prior to seeing this film made me think it was the Bond equivalent of Battlefield Earth and it was far from that. My main gripe is that the villain was probably one of the worst Bond villains EVER. He wasn't menacing in any way and was just a very poor actor IMHO. Also, the plot was a little lame, but then again most Bond movies aren't exactly praised for their plotlines so I suppose I can forgive that.

The action sequences were a bit frenetic, but overall I didn't really have a problem with them(although I would've liked to see more of the Aston Martin as opposed to Craig driving it). Speaking of Craig, he cemented my opinion that he's the best Bond yet. No offense to Connery, Moore or Brosnan fans, but I think Craig gets top honors for his portrayal and I can't wait to see him in the next installment.

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Yep, my feelings too, the villain was weak, the story a little lame but an enjoyable film just the same. Though Connery is still my favourite Bond, but for these new films I can't imagine anyone better than Craig. Jude Law? urrgh! Gerard Butler? hmmm maybe. James McAvoy? nooo!

And btw is this the first Bond film to feature an attempted rape scene? tsk tsk and 30 years ago Roger Moore's 007 was driving a gondola thru St. Mark's Square, my how times have changed.

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Depends on what you consider "attempted". Surely Connery's Bond starts to have his way with Pussy Galore, but she eventually gives in, so it's alright.

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I think Clive Owen would've made a decent Bond.

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They don't mention why Dench is threatening to quit. It could be possible that even Dench, herself, is getting tired of the shrew that the character has become. She may be getting bored with the character's portrayal as a badgering den mother, whose only job seems to be berating Bond. Either that or it's the money.

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Is there any reason they can't reinvent S.P.E.C.T.R.E and it's rogues gallery now?

Every time I see those "Cash for Gold" tv commercials, I think it's a fiendish plot by Goldfinger!

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Not sure what MI6 could have done to break Bond out of North Korea. Unlike, say the old USSR, it's not as if Anglo MI6 agents could really run around North Korea covertly trying to figure out how to stage a jailbreak. And M can't order the SAS to stage a hit-and-run, even assuming the PM would sanction such a blatant violation of another nation's sovereignty.

But I certainly agree with the comemnts about the difference in tone: M seems to have "inherited" Brosnan's Bond as an incumbent (and in her view, outmoded) agent whilst she is the new head of MI6, whereas with CR being a reboot origin story M is the incumbent and Bond is the rookie earning his double-0 status.

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The Bond theme is in the movie a few times (as anyone that has listened to the score album could confirm) although they are all subtle, quiet renditions during some of the quiet moments in the film. True that there are no full on orchestra, in your face, renditions during any action moments but, it dose make a few appearances in the film.

I do miss the full on version during "hero" moments though and hope it returns in the next installment since (I think) Bond is now truly 007 at the end of QoS.

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In a Bond movie, they can Think of it as Bond Great Escape.

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Review Thread

The title sequence is thin on visual ideas, and so dimly lit and indistinct it looks as if it were done on analog video. The only thing that's clear is Craig's big face, as if we don't see enough of him in the film. Showing silhouettes of Bond tumbling over guns is a motif that became so over-familiar in the 1970s and 1980s I don't welcome it back. The "nude sand" motif is welcome, but too shy to either communicate the statement it wants to make or celebrate female beauty, and demonstrates how prudish Bond films have become under Barbara Broccoli. Compared to the late Maurice Binder's nude silhouettes of the 1970s and 1980s, this title sequence fails to deliver at the most basic pictorial level. The inspiration for a man traveling across a desert of sand in the ever-shifting shape of the female figure comes from Masamura's Blind Beast (1969). That Japanese cult film probably conveys the intention of this title sequence more clearly than this title sequence does itself. Why didn't they stick with Daniel Kleinman, who did the title sequences in the last 5 Bond films? He really knows what he's doing.

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That would be Marc Forster again. He worked with the company that did QOS's titles before and felt they were a part of his creative team or whatever so he brought them on board. IMDB still lists Kleinman as a designer, but the titles lack the imagination & aesthetic present in his previous ones (even the font this new company has chosen sticks out like a sore thumb). So I'm thinking they kept Kleinman aboard as a consultant or something so as not to burn bridges if they want him back for future installments.

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I have to say that the Jack White song has really grown on me. Far from being one of the worst of the Bond songs, I think it's one of the better ones. The Bond songs have ranged from hip (Nancy Sinatra) to lame (Gladys Knight) and from exciting (Paul McCartney) to dull (KD Lang, Garbage). The Jack White song has echos of John Barry and Paul McCartney in it. I'd go so far as to say that Alicia Keyes even has some Shirley Bassey in her voice.

I don't much care for the title though - far too many Bond titles have had the word "die" in them, particularly recently (Tomorrow Never Dies, Die Another Day). Another Way To Die sounds like the title of a 007 knock-off novel.

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Are you alright, Sam?
Do you feel okay?
You haven't suffered some kind of shock or trauma lately, have you?
I mean really.

"Another Way to Die" is a wretched, abysmal song, inept and incompetent, with nonsensical, inane, and idiotic lyrics, lousy musicianship put through state-of-the-art recording technology. People really have to work at the song to understand what's being said, the enunciation is so slurred. It is wholly inappropriate to a James Bond film and starts Quantum of Solace off on the wrong foot. It is a true piece of shvt. I'd rather listen to Robert Shaw drag his fingernails down the blackboard.

The more I hear the song the more I despise it.

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Oh well, to each his own. I didn't care for it at first, but the more I heard it, the more I liked it. I also thought about it in context of the other Bond songs, and I think it is easily the best one in 20 years. (I didn't think Chris Cornell's song was anything special - and not putting it on the official soundtrack album? WTF?)

That said, I have been saying for more than 20 years that The Smithereens could do a killer Bond song. Those guys were born to record a theme for one of these movies.

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Ok, I'm bumping this one again. I've now seen Casino Royale several times and QoS twice, and I still can't make out who/what Mathis is supposed to be. Can someone please fill in the above quote for me?

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

======SPOILER BELOW======


Mathis' role is confused. Perhaps the writers never decided how to play him. It's not clear who's side he's on or whether or not he's betraying or betrayed. The fact that Bond throws Mathis' body in the dumpster after he dies indicates that while he likes Mathis he doesn't entirely believe in his innocence. Or it could be that the writers are intentionally raising the question and leaving it unanswered because they are planning a "reveal" in the next one. In view of the sophomoric writing of these two films the latter explanation is the likeliest. The dialog is no help (verbatim):

The way Bond stands Mathis up after pulling him out of the car is meant to suggest that he may be using Mathis as a shield against the policeman's guns. Bond realizes he's being set up, he knows the police are going to shoot, so he sacrifices Mathis. The suggestion is there, leaving us to interpret it either way.

Scurvey way to write the Bond character.

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I think your question would be better in this area: HT Software - High Definition - Home Theater Forum

Quick reply, it's probably something to do with Fox discs and there copy protection.

As for QoS, I enjoyed it at cinemas, I'll be seeing if it holds up upon a second viewing later today, when I watch the BD. I agree with Richard about the title sequence though, very bland and forgettable. It's especially strange that Foster didn't bring back Daniel Kleinman as his work was SO good on Casino Royale.

I don't think Mathis was a traitor. As for the "code name" thing, the idea is that Mathis uses his own name as a code name. Remember, like Bond did in Casino Royale when he checked into the hotel? That's what got Mathis killed, and so Bond learns another lesson.

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The post to which this portion responds has been moved, because, as noted, it doesn't belong here. The subject has been extensively discussed in the hi-def areas. (FYI, it has nothing to do with copy protection.)

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Actually that part I think is the one part about Mathis that I did understand. The way I took that scene is, earlier at the party, Mathis introduces Bond to the Bolivian Chief of Police, as one of his friends. The chief of police says to Bond "My entire police force will be at your disposal", to which Bond replies "That could be useful."

Bond then leaves both Mathis and the Police Chief, and we never see either of them again until Bond discovers Mathis in the back of the car.

I believe that the police chief beat up Mathis, and dumped him in the back of the car, thus setting up Bond. When bond gets pulled over, the two cops clearly know that Mathis is in the back of the car, since the chief is setting him up. When Bond pulls Mathis out of the car the cop says "He's still moving, shoot him!", clearly referring to Mathis. They shoot him thus completing the set up to make it look like Bond killed him.

This is all later evidenced and resolved when at the desert hotel, bond jumps down onto the hood of the police chief's car and says "You and I had a mutual friend!" before shooting the police chief.

That all makes sense to me, but I still have no idea what the whole "Mathis" code name was about, or how he was innocent from the events in Casino Royale.

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The luminosity of a TV monitor works wonders for the title sequence. On theatrical screens it is dim and lacks resolution so that you can't see the female figure in those shifting sands. The motif is clearer and sharper in the digital realm, which is probably the medium it was intended for. Theater audiences got cheated; not that they mind. In any case the title sequence remains thin and insufficient in terms of visual and dramatic ideas when compared to Kleinman's titles.

Bond learns another lesson.
You raise an interesting point here. Nothing is said or implied in either film that Mathis uses his own name as a cover name, but that may be what the writers intended. It doesn't pay to study the recent Bond scripts too closely. They are full of inconsistencies, mistakes, and tortured logic. The cover name debate in front of the hotel desk between Vesper and Bond in Casino Royale is one of the scenes that irritates me the most. It's risible and condescending as hell. The James Bond character in that film is too meatheaded to be human let alone a spy.

So far, so good.

Somebody did, but it's not clear who. Before he gets out of the car to talk to the police, Bond says "What are the odds Dominic Greene has friends in the police force?" So Bond thnks it's Greene who sent the police, not the police chief. But he could be wrong. This lack of clarity is bad writing.

Yeah they do say that, in Spanish with English subs. But the way Bond stands up the body indicates he knows what's coming before they say it. Where's Bond's famous handgun? Not in evidence in the scene; he takes a policeman's gun away from him and shoots him with it, then empties the clip through the chamber and tosses it away. Again, if you look too closely, it's a very confused scene.

So far, so good.

Was that the police chief in the car? The cutting is so fast I didn't notice it was the same man from the party earlier, and I'm an editor. But if Bond thinks Dominic Greene sent the two policeman -- and he says as much -- why does he shoot the police chief? Ah yes, because the police chief arrives at the hotel where Greene is, linking them together. We as an audience can hardly follow a story that fails to deliberate. There are many things I like about Quantum of Solace, but the editing shipwrecks the film for me, as does the premise that James Bond is a meathead who has to be taught how to have class and how to be a responsible, better man.

I don't think the film makers know either, or care, so they finesse it.

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Watched this one again last night. Looks great on Blu-ray. Liked the film A LOT better the second time around. Might have helped that my wife and I watched the last 30 minutes of Casino Royale directly before we watched Quantum of Solace.

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I can't believe anyone likes this theme song.
the singing isn't even that, Keyes does some sort of moaning thing
during the song that sounds more like she is injured and can't speak.
Hate it.

I need a bond movie to have less M or at least an M that doesn't
lecture Bond every 5 minutes.
Also a villain who is a good one and one who has a plot to
take over the world or at least monopolize a product.
Yeah I know this Quantum was trying to corner a water supply, but it was barely part of the film as more then a passing mention.

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

I think the Mathis situation is still a bit confusing, but I didn't really have an issue following the police chief thing. I think we're suppose to assume (as Bond does) that the police chief was in cahoots (hence his appearance at the hotel) with the General and Greene and set up Mathis. It informs Bond's motivation for the last act of the movie. He and Camille sl=plit up, each to get revenge. Though I, too, thought it looked like Bond used Mathis as a human shield though it could very well not be the case. I also never got the whole dumpster thing. I'm sure it has some meaning behind it, but I can't think of what (maybe something to do with the anonymity of the profession or whatever).

About Mathis' role. I think it was implied in interviews that he was a triple agent. That he got in with Le Chiffre, pretending to spy on MI6, but he was really still working for MI6 and spying on Le Chiffre. What's confusing is that Casino Royale only seemed to set up the possibility of one mole. But this would imply one mole and another pretending to be a mole.

Another way of looking at it is that Le Chiffre knew that Vesper was working for Quantum and decided to falsely implicate Mathis to throw off Bond. Either way, it's still pretty confusingly followed up in QOS.

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The dumpster thing really irks me. It's a particularly foul thing for Bond to do. The previous actors would not have done it, you can be sure of that. So does stealing the photo from the desk top when M glances away. As did sneaking a peek at her computer when she wasn't home in Casino Royale. These sneaky little thefts are made in conjunction with a verbal lie. "I'm not going to go chasing him," Bond retorts as he pockets the photo of Vesper and her boyfriend with one hand while distracting M's eye by raising a glass of whiskey with the other hand. There is a judgment being made about the character of Bond with these ratty, sneaky thefts and unecessary white lies. I have more to say about it, but I'll stop there.

Yes, but audiences don't pay to watch post-production interviews with the stars to find out what the movie is about. They are paying to watch the movie. The movie is the place to sort out story points.

Yes, this particular story thread is confusing. Wade and Purvis are in over their head straying into John Le Carre territory like this, but they're in over their head anyhow. These scripts are so impaired with problems the longer you look at them the less sense they make.

Quantum of Solace is a more professional script, but one gets the feeling it isn't finished yet. If it were finished I'm sure Haggis would have sorted these problems out.

Watching the Blu-ray, I'm impressed by the film visually and dramatically, but I also find it a misguided approach to an action movie. The scenes are directed with too much brevity. The duration of shots is too short. The editing is too elliptical. The overall timing creates a sense of the ephemeral and robs the underlying drama and action of its gravitas. I'm accustomed to keeping track of bits and pieces of footage, playing them reverse and forwards while keeping track on multiple monitors, and trying out different assemblies. I don't get confused by fast cutting. But I've studied this film in slow motion, and sometimes, the information an audience needs to track what's happening isn't there on the screen. Some audience members don't mind that -- they don't mind anything, really -- and others do. Personally, I find the brevity, short duration, and elliptical cutting undermines the effectiveness of the drama as well the action. I can't believe they released it this way. I think the entire film needs to be recut. If the audiences who defend this assembly had a slightly slower timing to compare it to, I'll bet they'd prefer the slower / longer edit.

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I thought that Bond took Mathis' money out of his wallet then threw him
and his wallet in the dumpster to make it
look like a mugging, don't know what the need for that would be though.

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I addition to the problematic editing, I also find the movie to be "ugly" - certainly not in a visual sense, but more along the lines of story and construction. It just reminds me too much of the so-so Bond movies like "Licence to Kill" and "Die Another Day". There are just many other things about the movie that sort of irk me. After we meet Camille, the movie just halts to a stop to set up her character and all the other peripheral characters. It just feels very sloppy, and on top of that, none of it's very interesting. None of the villains are threatening and Camille is the same character we've seen in a dozen other action movies - a few of which are probably other Bond movies. The only characters I really liked appeared in the last one. And some parts, like Felix Leiter's scenes and M showing up for no reason whatsoever just feel like a betrayal (for lack of a better word) of the characters. I can't even say I connected with Bond for this outing, which was something of a surprise since many felt the reason they hired Forster, more known for his dramatic films, was for stronger character work. Anyway, the rest of the movie proceeds in flat footed and jerky manner. Shit happens, the people higher up pretend to care but really don't, and Bond and Camille go do something else. The tension is constantly undercut and the stakes don't feel very real. I don't necessarily dislike the movie, but even the worst Bond movies offer something. Here, the only moments that I'd probably enjoy watching again are the scenes at the opera and maybe the ending. It might not be awful, but it's one of the more disappointing sequels I've seen.

And back the Mathis, personally I took the code name thing to be a joke. The character's an Italian going by the name Mathis.

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

His real name is Renee Mathis, as said by M in the movie.