*** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread - Page 3

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

To be honest, I don't think the gunbarrel should be moved.

I didn't like the fact that they moved it to the end of the film (I'm not a big fan of mucking with tradition - Casino Royale was about as much of a departure as I was willing to accept) but I DO believe it was put there with a purpose in mind. I mean, I THOUGHT the ending of CR was to signify that we finally had the Bond we all know and love but, apparently, that's what QoS's ending means.

As far as the rest of the film ... I know this will be controversial, but I would LOVE to see the action sequences recut. This movie's production budget was so high, yet you don't really see $200 million on the screen (CAN you ever see $200 million on the screen? I guess that's another topic). The opening car chase LOOKED like it might have been cool, but it was such a mess that it was hard to tell.

Furthermore, the post-opening foot chase and fight are terrible as well. I would LOVE to see the film lose the stupid interspliced footage of the horse race. The Opera action sequence would feel much the same way ... instead of having Bond's gun battle intercut with the stage show (for no reason), just show us the action.

I can't think of another Bond film that felt pretentious.

But outside of those gripes I really did enjoy the film.

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

This is an overstatement on two fronts. I hear split opinions on the film (love it/hate it) but the half that love it, seem as happy with the action sequences as those who didn't are unhappy.

2nd - I am not sure what dramatic drop you refer to, as it is consistent with films that make a big splash on opening weekend. The % drop from sunday to monday was 71% for QoS and 64.1% for CR. The Monday raw gross was higher on Monday for Qos, but below CR on the Tuesday - but again, not a dramatic difference by any stretch of the imagination.

I think the criticism is unfair and will abate much when people take another look, as you say in an earlier post. Even still, recutting for home video release is a bad idea - for any film, good or bad, unless specifically designed as a Director's cut, where additional footage is added and that reshapes a scene.

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

They shouldn't be recutting for any home release, unless the director states that he wants to do it. There shouldn't be any recutting until the director comes out and says that what is playing in the theatre wasn't what he intended. We, as the audience, have to accept that what is presently playing in the theatre is the director's intent, unless we are told otherwise.

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Should it be? I'm not sure. But like you I immediately thought there was a much better movie on the cutting room floor. The framing was excellent, betraying the sloppy editing. And we know for a fact that all kinds of material was excised, including "Bond...James Bond."

I'm not sure if anyone else picked up on this, but there were many odd edits. When we're introduced to the General meeting Greene, I'm certain there was an entire discussion cut out there and they just cut to the end with the General saying "...And how are you going to do all this for me?"

Then there was Mathis' introduction with his wife or mistress, They throw in an odd closeup of her just before cutting away from the scene, it just didn't feel right. Lots of little things like that are in the film and frankly I find it hard to believe that this was the movie any of the parties involved truly wanted to make.

If the filmmakers want to give it another go I'd be all for it, but I don't want them to feel obligated to. I'd rather them just learn their lesson and give us a proper adventure next time if that were the case.

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Could they be happier -- or to be more accurate, no less happy -- if they were recut? Did the half that love the movie think they were "perfect -- don't touch them"?

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I didn't love it but I did enjoy it. A lot of the reviews here are so out of whack with my impressions of QoS I have to wonder if we even saw the same movie. Curious, how many here actually saw this at the theatre? Was it a big screen? The people I went with didn't complain of confusing action scenes, the lack of humour was the biggest complaint. My Sandra was not impressed with it but than not many films do impress her. The best thing about this film? Daniel Craig.

I'm sure the producers will have read the reviews and criticism and will try and make the next one more fan-friendly. What is amazing is that the Bond series is 46 years old and people are still queueing up in their millions to watch each new entry. The success of the Bourne Trilogy didn't dilute enthusiasm for Bond, it's the most popular movie series in history. Quantum won't go down as one of the best entries but it will have it's followers and I'm one of them. I liked it.

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I'd be open to the idea, provided that the theatrical cut be made available too. We won't know that until this weekend. Weekday sales are always dramatically lower than the opening weekend. The word-of-mouth I'm hearing is mixed: long-time Bond fans are generally underwhelmed by the film, while generic action fans seem to like it just fine. I don't think it'll have the legs of Casino Royale, but I don't think it'll be a bomb, either. I doubt it, it's too hard to market. It might help the film's reputation moving forward though. Most of my problems with the early action scenes (other than the opening car chase which moved so fast it was stupifying) were conceptual; no matter how you cut the Italy chase, it's going to feel like a Bourne rip-off. The urban geography's just too similar. And I actually quite liked the latter action scenes. I'm neutral on the gunbarrel placement, but you're forgetting your history if you think "everyone misses" an instrumental over the credits. The credits have featured some variation on a tie-in pop song going back to Shirley Bassey on Goldfinger. "Another Way to Die" isn't great, but it's not the worst Bond theme, either. I still miss the optical effects for the credits, and disliked MK12's very generic work here even more than the Flash-driven credits for Casino Royale, which were at least inventive.

Some of the issues people might have are the intangibles: Dennis Gassner replaced long-time Bond production designer Peter Lamont, who did some of his best work in the whole series for Casino Royale. Likewise, Louise Frogley replaced Lindy Hemming as costume designer, and went for a different look. The second-unit director this time was Dan Bradley, who directed the action sequences for the "Bourne" sequels.

And then there are the stakes, which are very small-scale for a Bond movie. I actually thought this was fitting since the film takes its name from a short-story. Quantum of Solace feels like a cinematic interlude or novela, a bridge from the person he was to the person he needs to be.

As long as the next film tackles this Quantum group head on, I'm fine with the detour. It set up the world this reboot exists in, and it resolved Bond's emotional crisis.

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That's a bit of a silly question. But to indulge you, I have no clue what other people would say - but imperfect and ripe for recutting are not the same thing.

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Yes, nobody is suggesting that the theatrical film be suppressed, it should be available side by side with a recut of the action.

I think the real issue is the hyper fast cutting. Audiences aren't getting the information they need to process what is happening. This is especially true of the opening car chase. It is meant to be elliptical and impressionistic. But the simple truth is the information isn't there to follow the action. It's not supposed to be, and that's the problem with it. Film editors and directors should remember that audiences are not acclimated to multiple images flying past in forward and reverse and forward again on the monitor or bank of monitors. They need more time. Partly it's human nature. The average human eye needs several seconds for an image to register on the brain. One can cut faster down to three seconds if the eye is led up to it. but not all the time and not for a prolonged sequence. It is true that a second or third viewing facilitates a better grasp of the images, but that may be expecting too much from an audience under any circumstances. I could not tell who shoots at who or which person Mitchell was in the underground shoot-out until I watched for it at a second viewing, and my eyes are acclimated.

I also like the later action sequences but I especially enjoy the chase over the rooftops. True it is derivative of the The Bourne Ultimatum but it's still a gutsy chase. This chase is interrupted by inappropriate cutaways to a fiesta. Inappropriate because nothing is happening in those cutaways to progress the chase or to add to the suspense. Instead, the cutaways stop the momentum of the sequence. If all the fiesta is intended to do is add local color, than put it somewhere else.

The point is that the film needs a stronger opening and a more familiar opening because what follows is such a radical departure. Putting the gun barrel sequence back at the beginning would hook the audience instantly and no doubt provoke applause. The hyper fast cutting of the car chase needs to be reconsidered. As Zack Gibbs points out below, there is a kick-in-the-pants car chase on cutting room floor. If a shot of Mr. White bound in the trunk were shown to the audience at the outset the sequence would generate considerably more suspense as the crash and bang ensues. Not everyone is film-literate enough to know the idea derives from Get Carter (1971). The song is truly risible if not self-destructive. It contributes nothing. If it were replaced by the traditional James Bond theme, everybody would welcome it and see it as an improvement. The underlying theme of the titles is fine if a little thin on visual ideas. But the title sequence is dimly lit and indistinct except for Craig's close-ups. It is possible to restructure the film's opening with a few obvious steps while maintaining the same downbeat key that is so important to this particular story.

I don't think the work of the new personnel are issues. Quantum of Solace is an elegant action noir, beautifully lit, composed and designed. How can anyone fault the look and style of this film. Note how the black-and-white wardrobe contributes to characterization and the overall mood of the piece. In contrast, the aesthetics of Quantum of Solace make Casino Royale look like amateur night.

I don't entirely buy into the "development" of the character -- well, I'll save that for another time -- but I've been wanting to see a motivated Bond play out on a smaller and more intimate scale for a long time. I don't mind lower stakes if the drama is higher and the action is gutsier. To always insist on higher stakes like world domination strikes me as too confining and beside the point. Quantum of Solace steps blithely into Jean le Carre territory, with a conflicted protagonist (bond) combating a secret organization of moles infiltrating MI6. I draw your attention to Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, The Honourable Schoolboy, and Smiley's People. The conflicted protagonist and conspiracy of moles moving through a low-key world may be a new approach to Bond films, but it is an older tradition in espionage literature and in spy films, and much closer to the bittersweet noirs that Ian Fleming wrote. As I've said elsewhere, Quantum of Solace is the noir that Casino Royale should have been.

Quantum of Solace builds smartly on the confused and hysteric foundation of Casino Royale and suggests a new realm of possibilities for the franchise to explore. It is a better film because of Marc Foster's direction and the fact that Paul Haggis contributed more writing and editing on another hack script. Forster's dramatic sensibility and sophisticated aesthetic is most welcome, but a more traditional approach to editing the action and a stronger opening would help put across the new ideas and clear up the audience's confusion. I've watched the film three times now under state-of-the-art conditions and each time I hear the same complaints.

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

I just think directors need to relearn how to pull the camera away in order for people to get a sense of spatial placement in action sequences. All of these guys, lately, seem to think that jamming the camera close to the action adds tension. I think that technique has been overused and it is getting to the point of being confusing; although, I have to say that for the most part I could follow the action pretty well in this film.

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What about this movie makes it deserving of the time and resources needed for a recut?

There is nothing in QOS that would make me go out of my way to revisit any iteration of it, no matter how new and improved. It's not like a long awaited adaptation of some classic work or something similar -- it's a James Bond flick, there is one every other year or so. It's not even a terribly important film within the series, not like say, Casino Royale, which *had* to succeed in introducing a new actor and vision, and might have been worth a second look had it failed (depending on the nature of the failure of course.)

QoS is 2h of disposable entertainment. No amount of recutting will improve that underwhelming water scheme, or the most forgettable villain since... gee, I forgot.

I just caught this: Yeah, you're definitely seeing something the rest of us aren't.

--
H

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

If you don't know I'll let someone else explain it to you. A recut for DVD is done on a bench and would not require much resources, and not too much time, either. It's a rhetorical question in the real world during a slow week. My next deadline isn't until April. I have nothing else to think about, so I do this. That's okay with you, isn't it?

Relax, Holadem.
Disposable entertainment? So what are you doing here if that's all it is? Disposable entertainments are fortune-making enterprises. I don't disagree with your criticism of the film above. The first 10-15 minutes of a film are so important. I maintain that a few easy steps to strengthen the first 10-15 minutes would smooth out what follows for all the fans who are disappointed.

Ouch.
How would you know?
Who is "us"? Who are you speaking for?

Re: *** Official QUANTUM OF SOLACE Discussion Thread

It still felt like a Bond film to me, albeit with a much smaller scale villain. The Bond theme was there. The Martini was in it. No gadgets, but so what? Everybody was bitching about the overuse of gadgets anyway. Bond girls were downplayed but again, so what? The major theme of this outing was Bond's overwhelming desire to destroy those who had robbed him of his chance at happiness. Having him being diverted by Bond girls would have lessened the impact of his single minded determination to kill everyone who he felt was responsible for Vesper's death.The scene where he beds Ms. Fields just felt like it was there out of some obligatory need, not actual necessity.

I'll wait for a third outing and see if they start reintroducing some of the old elements.

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I'm sure the producers will introduce some of the old elements in the next film three years from now. Fans and audiences have been extremely vocal in their disappointment, and you can bet Eon is hearing about it. Yet -- and here is the usual contradiction -- the film is doing well at the box office, so far. My mind is open and receptive, but I don't believe Broccoli and Wilson know how to strike the right balance of elements. They will always impose the wrong things on their "creative dept."

Here's a question for you: What does Quantum of Solace have in common with The Terminal Man and The Graduate ?

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Why do you want to turn this into a pissing match?

One can "love" the movie while being merely "happy" with the action scenes, but that's not a convincing defense of them. (Not that these particular ones can necessarily be improved simply by recutting -- I didn't mean to imply that.) Casino Royale's action sequences were better across the board.

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The Bond theme isn't heard until the end titles, and there it's perfunctory. Traditionally, the Bond theme is heard over the main action. Many people miss hearing the Bond theme over the main action because it's part of the identity of the series. It's a rousing score and much more effective than any other music in the film, although I quite like David Arnold's score, which consciously evokes the instrumentations of John Barry's classic Bond scores. For some reason the film makers now reject the Bond theme as a score for the rebooted series, which many people think is a mistake. Personally, I would like to hear it played over the opening titles. What follows would feel more like a Bond film.

The only gadget is the computerized surveillance wall in M's office, and the computerized desk. There is a factual basis to Bond's gadgets, but they invariably lead to silliness and tedium, so let them stay at MI6. You might want to check out a book called Ultimate Spy by H. Keith Melton (published by DK, on sale at Barnes and Noble), an illustrated encyclopedia of real-life spycraft technology. It contains hundreds of photographs of utilitarian gadgets used by actual spies throughout the 20th century. Some of them are as exaggerated as the Bond films' depiction of them, but most are as practical as the briefcase in From Russia With Love.

So what? Beautiful women are vital to a Bond film's entertainment value. That includes dramatic value. The series used to be a lot more fun when natural liaisons between men and women weren't viewed as some kind of sin or psychosis. Having M pop up in South America to editorialize over agent Field's demise seems overly contrived and imposes a political correctness that crushes any romance or drama the scene might have. It also reprises the exact same scene in Casino Royale, at the death of Solange in Jamaica. Same dialog in which M excoriates Bond for having charm and being attractive to women, and in so doing, for getting agent Fields killed, as if espionage isn't dangerous. Scenes like this make me wish M would just shut up.

From a dramatic perspective, the interaction with agent Fields needed a little more exposition to get them in the bed, and once they're in the bed, a little more exposition to lead up to the next bit of business in which she assists Bond at the villain's party. There's enough of agent Fields to see where her character is going, but she's left unfinished, or on the cutting room floor. A little more time with agent Fields and she'd integrate more into the story. I wonder if Bond's interaction with agent Fields wasn't one of the elements Paul Haggis said he didn't have time to finish before the WGA strike, or if the producers decided to trim her role. She is included mainly so that M can yell at Bond.

If it seems as if the Bond girls are downplayed, it's because M is the real female lead. Can you imagine Judi Dench in a bikini? Bond can't exactly flirt on the beach with a geriatric den mother who keeps popping in to editorialize about everything from a man's motives to his sex life. Her prominence in the script robs Camille, played by Olga Kurlyenko, from being the real female lead and a more fully developed character. Camille is well defined as a tragic figure who shares in Bond's misery, and if their interaction is lacking dimension it's because M soaks it all up. Camille is where the action is in this script, but it's as if the producers decided that the voice of political correctness is more important, so let's cut back on Camille.

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I finally got around to seeing this earlier today. Knowing the early reaction to the film and also knowing nothing could live up to Casino Royale, I went in with low expectations. Personally, I hated the first half hour or so. Just an incoherent mess to me. Well, I understood what I needed to know, but the problem is Marc Forster ain't Paul Greengrass. Greengrass's work in The Bourne Supremacy with the shakey, kinetic, tightly framed camera was decent, but the greatest feat of The Borne Ultimatum was making it all coherent and easy to understand. Forster's early action scenes fail to do that. In fact, I found it very hard to figure out how characters got into the various situations that got into, and that's essentially the fun of any action movie. There's really no point if you end up losing the audience during the course of a 3-4 minute action sequence. It just gives us time to criticize the movie.

As much as anyone can say that Casino Royale wasn't a Bond film, I think Martin Campbell understood what a Bond film was better than Forster ever will. I felt David Arnold's music for Casino Royale was masterful in the way it channeled Bond without having to resort to the old familiar theme whenever the main character did something "Bondian" and when it finally did appear, it was glorious. But it's not just music, it's also style. And Casino Royale has that in spades - from the sweeping shots of the scenery, the popping colors, to the way Bond acts and moves.

In his review, Roger Ebert mentions that the drive during which the opening car chase takes place is breathtakingly gorgeous. But we get none of that. Something as obvious as having the chase play out on a gorgeous stretch of scenery is lost while the filmmakers try to ape the last great action movie to come out of Hollywood. Not only did they fail to do it once, they did it again with the foot chase soon afterward. What's the point of setting the scene during a festival if you're not even going to use it? It's as though they had some left over stock footage they needed to use.

Thankfully, the movie settles in around the point Bond meets Camille and I was able to enjoy a little more. There are some great stand out sequences such as the one at the opera, and also some nice quiet moments like those with Mathis. The rest of the movie works decently enough, even if it never felt like i was watching anything great. The movie lacks some of the much needed momentum though. The climax felt more like a second act action scene to me. I thought Greene was going to escape to his crazy fortress with the Bolivian army on his side, and it'd end on a big action climax. Unfortunately, it kinda just peters out.

I liked the ending though. It struck the right note. And that note more or less told me to disregard this as a movie in its own right and treat it more like an interlude. I just hope the producers get their shit together and remember to try to make a great movie next time.

All in all, it was decent. But the filmmakers seemed preoccupied trying the emulate the Borne movies to realize that the reason people go to see a Bond film is because it's a Bond film. Hopefully, whoever they get to direct the next one knows what he's doing.

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I can sort of understand holding back on introducing Q and Moneypenny but the total absence of the Bond theme, even a few snippets, during the film is baffling. In Casino Royale you hear a bit of it just before the end credits, here it's relegated to the end credits only. Will we hear it at all in the next one?

And I didn't think much of the new song. I thought the last one was weak but it's grown on me since.

According to IMDB trivia:The literal translations of some of this film's foreign language titles include A Quantum Consolation (or A Quantity of Consolation) (Germany); Quantum of Mercy (Russia); 007 Quantum (Mexico & Canada); A Grain of Comfort (Croatia); 007 Quantum of Solace (Argentina & Brazil); and 007: Reward of Comfort (Japan).

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I can't wait for the next bond movie to come out that does the check box formula so that everyone who hated this one can then maybe finally enjoy it for what it is - a unique Bond sequel where see a continuation of a story etc.

By the way, for those who think that the water story is weak. Browse the headlines. In a generation or so, countries will fight for resources like water. It's a real problem and the link to oil delivers that significance.

Yes this movie is low on the very familiar Bond style.

I hope to see some more traditional elements return in the next film, but I enjoyed the story for what it is.

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There's nothing wrong with the idea per say, but that doesn't mean the film used the idea well.


Something that bothered me when I watched the movie but forgot about, the introduction of Mathis. Isn't the timing off here. I mean if the film picks up immediately after 'Royal, when did MI6 find time to clear Mathis and buy him a villa? Wasn't he just in custody a couple of days earlier?

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Also, MI6 had the time to completely renovate their facilities.

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Recognizing that it's pretty silly to fault a James Bond flick for plausibility, even one that purports to be more realistic, the idea that a big lumbering unarmed civilian transport would not only out-maneuver, but actually defeat a fighter in a dogfight is almost insulting. It's like Bruce Lee getting his ass kicked by a paraplegic.

--
H

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I was a little confused on the Mathis parts. How was he innocent? Le Chiffe told Bond directly "I'm afraid your friend Mathis is really my friend Mathis."

When he was dying, Bond asked him about Mathis being his code name. I couldn't make out the entire conversation, and was lost as to what it being a code name signified.

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So the next Bond film should start with the Gun barrel at the beginning. But for some reason I think they are going to screw with it again an either not put it or do a variation of it.

I could understand CR not having the traditional Gun Barrel since he has not yet got his licence to kill, but I got to tell you when this film did not start with it, I was actually so upset that I could not concentrate on the movie for the first 10 min or so.

That being said, I did enjoy the movie I would give it a 7 out of 10.


For the next film please put the gun barrel back where it belongs and keep it there from now on.

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Short comments: I enjoyed it, and understand why for now the producers want to scale back on the quips, gadgets and for that matter the 'suaveness' that has been a Bond trademark in the past, but one thing glaringly missing was the Bond theme.

The prime example would be the rogue production Never Say Never Again -- even Connery's presence couldn't make up for the missing theme. As David Arnold himself said in a featurette on the TWINE DVD, when you hear the Bond theme you just know something spectacular is happening, or about to happen.

And I for one do look forward to more quips and gadgets in the next one. Bring back Q!

Might have something to do with Kevin McClory. Although since Sony was backing McClory, and McClory has since passed away anyway, I'm not sure it is really an issue any longer?

Ironic you don't remember,since it was your first: Michelle Yeoh in TND. Fair enough, they snog at the end, so it's possible they do later, but that is speculative.

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I appreciate everyonbe's opinions -- this discussion is great.

Personally, I loved the film. As he dispatched villain after villain, I couldn't help but hear Carly Simon in my mind saying that "nobody does it better." Bond is not Bourne. Bond is THE BEST. The Vesper arc is done. You can bet the next film will have more quips, gadgets, and Quantum holding the world hostage.

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And Daniel Craig promises more sex in the next one -



And some good news for Judi Dench haters -

Dame Judi Dench threatens to quit Bond | The Sun |Showbiz|Film

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I don't hate Dench, but I think her character is getting too much screen time in these latter day Bond films. Broccoli's comments about Dench being the "real Bond girl" and Dench being the lynch pin that keeps the series going just shows me that Broccoli is clueless about her own franchise. The success of the Bond films, with her as producer, is a testament to the popularity of the character rather than any testament of her ability to produce good Bond movies.