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THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

post #1 of 25
11/13/08 at 7:06pm
Thread Starter 
Has anyone checked out THE BOYS IN THE BAND DVD? I was curious - it being an independent film and nearing 40 years of age - what kind of quality the DVD would bring to the table. Well, I checked it out and immediately noticed some very strange things going on with the color. I compared it to the 80s Laserdisc - NOT THAT IT IS A DEFINITIVE REFERENCE - and it seems either a different element was used or it has faded very badly in the past 20 years. The new transfer is a great deal sharper and cleaner, but the high frequencies bloom and have some strange color inconsistencies.

I can only imagine the terrible condition of the original elements. CBS owns the film, and under their watchful eye we almost lost MY FAIR LADY forever. I'm sure they did as much color correction with the element they used as they could, but wasn't there anything better to work with? The quality reminds me of MGM's transfer of WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH ALICE?, which looks like it was transferred from a red print and then rebalanced in the transfer phase to try and correct it rather than make a new element or use another source.

I got as close to the exact frames as I could in the captures.

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BOYS00001A.jpg
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BOYS00001B.jpg

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post #2 of 25
11/13/08 at 7:09pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

It's possible that the element they were working from was mistimed, but judging from the very blue, blasted-out highlights and clogged shadow detail, it would seem that the negative they used to yield whatever element for transfer has faded.
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post #3 of 25
11/13/08 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

It's too bad, as many scenes look very, very good. And it isn't like entire layers of color are missing. I'm just curious what was used for this transfer, and if something better could've been achieved. I wonder if the print used for the 80s Laserdisc is still around...
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post #4 of 25
11/13/08 at 7:39pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Almost everything is fixable in the video realm, but has to be done during the transfer process, usually. If they didn't put a lot of money into this transfer session, I'm sure whoever was doing it was on auto-pilot.
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post #5 of 25
11/13/08 at 9:28pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Actually, the new transfer looks pretty good from those caps - and I believe Friedkin says on the commentary track that the color is exactly what he wanted.
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post #6 of 25
11/13/08 at 9:39pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

[quote=Chuck Pennington
Laserdisc
BOYS00004A.jpg
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Look at the writing under the face on the wall. Friedkin must be blind. Something is very wrong there.
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post #7 of 25
11/14/08 at 4:30am

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

From the shots you show, there is definitely something wrong.

What % of the film would you say has this color problem Chuck?
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post #8 of 25
11/14/08 at 6:39am

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

I'm reminded of the re-done DVD of All That Jazz where the whole film had an unnatural blue-green cast, but this isn't as bad. Unless this is what Friedkin asked for, someone at the color correction stage must have made a goof.
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post #9 of 25
11/14/08 at 8:28am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
I'm reminded of the re-done DVD of All That Jazz where the whole film had an unnatural blue-green cast, but this isn't as bad. Unless this is what Friedkin asked for, someone at the color correction stage must have made a goof.

The plot thickens.... Billy's comment is indeed correct. I listened to the commentary track and have edited together the relevant portions and posted them here. Apparently, this is the way William Friedkin wants the film to look. I wonder if he worked from a "clean slate" as far as this film transfer is concerned, seeing how the elements looked before going through the process he describes. A lot of the film looks fine, but it seems like individual reels suffer greatly from some strange color and light variances.




Laserdisc
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Notice how the popmark makeup is easier to identify in the DVD transfer compared to the LD below.
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post #10 of 25
11/14/08 at 11:13am

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
Look at the writing under the face on the wall.


That's Marlene Dietrich.
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post #11 of 25
11/14/08 at 11:29am

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

You can see the writing on the poster just fine in the clips provided above. However, the importance of seeing the writing on a poster on the wall is of such little importance - it's a decoration - you're not supposed to be looking at the writing you're supposed to be watching the scene. That's the problem with analyzation of screencaps. While I don't have this DVD yet, I will say from that youtube clip the transfer looks great - and I take Friedkin over people on a forum looking at screencaps. We've got a DVD that looks like the way he shot it. I don't know what else you could ask for. That laserdisc transfer is ugly. Look at the shot of Kenneth Nelson in the sweater - on the laserdisc the sweater is brown - on the DVD it's as it should be - purple.
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post #12 of 25
11/14/08 at 11:39am

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Well, after listening to his commentary it's obvious to me that he's happy with the visual. I just find it odd that black lettering would become transparent day-glo blue. No bother to me in the long run, as this DVD will not be in my collection anyway. I was just adding my 2 cents to the conversation based on Chuck's observations.

Yes, Rob, I know that's Marlene, and I should have referred to her by name.
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post #13 of 25
11/14/08 at 1:55pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
We've got a DVD that looks like the way he shot it. I don't know what else you could ask for. That laserdisc transfer is ugly. Look at the shot of Kenneth Nelson in the sweater - on the laserdisc the sweater is brown - on the DVD it's as it should be - purple.

Well, no... Even he states the film never looked like this before. He said no print had ever looked the way the DVD looks. Of course, he also said VHS colors are subject to fading and that the DVD video transfer has been "sonically" bathed to remove scratches...

I agree the Laserdisc features an aged transfer and the shot you mention is indeed inferior. However, this strange blue/blown-out color scheme seems to come and go at random during the film - the first two reels are the worst.

From Friedkin's comments it seems he and the telecine colorist were experimenting on how to make the film look different. The majority of the film looks fine with this cool color scheme. There are a good three reels that don't match the rest of the film at all.
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post #14 of 25
11/14/08 at 2:48pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
Well, no... Even he states the film never looked like this before. He said no print had ever looked the way the DVD looks. Of course, he also said VHS colors are subject to fading and that the DVD video transfer has been "sonically" bathed to remove scratches...

I agree the Laserdisc features an aged transfer and the shot you mention is indeed inferior. However, this strange blue/blown-out color scheme seems to come and go at random during the film - the first two reels are the worst.

From Friedkin's comments it seems he and the telecine colorist were experimenting on how to make the film look different. The majority of the film looks fine with this cool color scheme. There are a good three reels that don't match the rest of the film at all.

I've ordered the DVD and am looking forward to seeing it.
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post #15 of 25
11/14/08 at 3:52pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

I wonder how this transfer compares to an original dye-transfer print.
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post #16 of 25
11/15/08 at 6:20pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston
I wonder how this transfer compares to an original dye-transfer print.

This new transfer is MUCH closer to the original prints I've seen in retrospective houses over the years. Both in terms of color and darkness. And the hideous brownish-yellowish cast of all the previous home video incarnations is gone.

Friedkin personally supervised the color timing and the transfer to separate black & white and color elements, and then the recombining of the two to achieve the look he was going for. I think it looks terrific.
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post #17 of 25
11/15/08 at 8:00pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor
This new transfer is MUCH closer to the original prints I've seen in retrospective houses over the years. Both in terms of color and darkness. And the hideous brownish-yellowish cast of all the previous home video incarnations is gone.

Friedkin personally supervised the color timing and the transfer to separate black & white and color elements, and then the recombining of the twoto achieve the look he was going for. I think it looks terrific.

Funny, since he even admits the film never looked like this before. Ever. And why is it the first 2 reels and the last reel are the ones that are horribly blue? Seems awfully random..

And I hardly think the Laserdisc was all brown and yellow - lol - look at the pics. It doesn't have near the clarity of the new release, no, but the color is far more consistent. Those few blue reels just stand out on the DVD, and not in a good way.
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post #18 of 25
11/15/08 at 9:12pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
Funny, since he even admits the film never looked like this before. Ever. And why is it the first 2 reels and the last reel are the ones that are horribly blue? Seems awfully random..

Those few blue reels just stand out on the DVD, and not in a good way.

Didn't the DVD of Friedkin's "CRUISING" also have that blue-coloring adjustment in its transfer? (I'm not even going to mention the computer-graphic re-editing of scenes for the DVD like Pacino dancing at the bar - oops, I just did!). The DVD of "CRUISING" looked way bluer than the theatrical and VHS prints ever did, no question. Maybe Friedkin is now color-blind and wants everything to now have a blue hue. Or maybe he just aspires to be the next George Lucas.

Can't wait to see just how blue the eventual "SORCERER" widescreen disc will be.
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post #19 of 25
11/15/08 at 10:12pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
Funny, since he even admits the film never looked like this before. Ever. And why is it the first 2 reels and the last reel are the ones that are horribly blue? Seems awfully random..

And I hardly think the Laserdisc was all brown and yellow - lol - look at the pics. It doesn't have near the clarity of the new release, no, but the color is far more consistent. Those few blue reels just stand out on the DVD, and not in a good way.

What Friedkin actually said was the film has never looked this good before. His exact quote is "The DVD is the best looking print that ever existed of 'Boys in the Band.' To time a print used to take six to eight weeks and you'd never get it right... This DVD, the color is timed the way it was *meant* to be (emphasis his). There are no compromises."

As for the yellowish cast on the previous home video versions, look at the Laserdisc. Michael's sweater is not purple like it was in the theatrical presentations I've seen, and is now again on the dvd. Look at the lanterns hanging on the balcony. They all appear to be yellowish. On the DVD you can see that some are pink, some are green, etc. Look at Bernard's shirt: it's orange on the laserdisc and the proper red on the DVD.

Look at the shot of Emory coming into the kitchen where Larry is. His shirt on the Laserdisc is PEACH, not beige. (And again, check out the lasterns hanging in the background.) Check out the "Italian restaurant" napkin Harold has tucked in his color. On the Laserdisc it's orange check, not the traditional red check it is now.

And most importantly, look at the flesh tones. They're much more realistic now.
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post #20 of 25
11/15/08 at 11:06pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

No one wants to know from blue anymore - it's that simple. And thank you for quoting Friedkin correctly - his meaning is plain and simple, and to misquote him to bolster an argument seems wrong-headed in the extreme. The laserdisc images are horrible - faded and ugly and not anything like the way the film looked. I finally have the DVD in hand and will be watching it, maybe today.
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post #21 of 25
11/16/08 at 12:35am
Thread Starter 

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor
And most importantly, look at the flesh tones. They're much more realistic now.


Ah, yes, looking over the images below again, you are absolutely correct. Everything looks far more realistic in the DVD compared to the Laserdisc transfer, especially the fleshtones as you point out.

LD
BOYSB00002A.jpg
DVD
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LD
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It's just so odd how the first two reels and one near the end look like this. The rest of the film does not.
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post #22 of 25
11/16/08 at 9:41am

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Everybody looks jaundiced on the LD. We finally got some healthy pink back in the DVD. Plus it was a dead giveaway on the LD captures how their lips all were the same color as their skin, and now on the DVD their lips are pinkish, as they should be.
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post #23 of 25
11/16/08 at 1:09pm
Thread Starter 

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor
Everybody looks jaundiced on the LD. We finally got some healthy pink back in the DVD. Plus it was a dead giveaway on the LD captures how their lips all were the same color as their skin, and now on the DVD their lips are pinkish, as they should be.

Of course. I just wonder why the first 2 reels are full of people that are blue, as in the capture below. No, he doesn't look jaundiced, but would you call this a healthy look?

BOYS00003B.jpg
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post #24 of 25
11/16/08 at 2:19pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

Yes, to my eyes with the late afternnon light, that is MUCH more realistic and healthy looking than the either the LD or the VHS.
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post #25 of 25
11/16/08 at 10:21pm

Re: THE BOYS IN THE BAND - weird color fading

I've now watched the DVD - the color is very accurate. For the person who asked how it stacked up against dye transfer prints, I don't believe there were any on this title - there is no color by Technicolor credit. There are some weirdnesses in the transfer, though - some very high contrast weird stuff going on - perhaps that has to do with the process Friedkin was talking about. It causes some of the whites to be blown out and some weird color gradations (on the Dietrich poster, for one) - but the color values seem absolutely on the money.
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