Why is DLP so unpopular? - Page 2

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

There's still a few months for me to find a reason not to buy the 73-inch Mitsubishi DLP. That's the one I've had my eye on for a while and might finally save enough money to buy one in the next few months. I've heard lots of good and bad things about their reliability- some say they break all the time while others say they watch them every day for years and don't have any problems. The bulbs are around $100 which isn't too bad, I plan to keep a spare one on hand so I can change it as soon as it needs to.

Picture quality looks good in the stores, even when they have too much ambient light so it should look good at home. I still need to find out if it will sense the aspect ratio flag on regular DVDs so it will switch between 4x3 and 16x9 modes automatically- I know this isn't an issue with Blu-Ray players but I have an all-region player with component outputs I'd like to use with it. I also need to find out if they will display closed captions on DVDs (NOT the player-generated subtitles, I'm talking about the old-fashioned TV-decoded captions which are also on many DVDs) hooked up through the component inputs- I know they don't work on HDMI so I'll have to also have a component output hooked up for when I want to see the captions. I've seen them not work through component on some sets but they do work on others, and don't know if that's determined by the player, TV or both. If anyone can answer these please do so!

The biggest flat-panel sets of comparable size are around 60 inches, which would probably be big enough but all the ones I've seen cost over $5000, which is simply too much. If they're going to stop making DLP sets then I want a 73-inch LCD for under $3000!

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

keep an eye out at Fry's...they have been selling a couple of Mits 73" models for $1300-$1375.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Is amazon an authorized samsung dealer? I checked out Fry's and amazon is a few hundred dollars cheaper on a 61" DLP

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

DLP.com reviews

I can't find too many dlp reviews either. And the one's I linked don't look all that helpfull. Sorry, there's just not much out there.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Not a bad state-of-the-technology DLP summary from CNET. (I'm not a big CNET fan, but I check them now and again in the same way you play with a bad tooth.)

Is rear-pro the way to go for a large-screen TV? | Fully Equipped - CNET Reviews



The article mentions this:

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

There's supposed to be adjustments in the service menu to straighten out the geometry, though the most accurate way to do this would be to manually adjust the projection lens inside. I don't know how easy that is to do- moving it in and out would also adjust overscan.

There should be some way to focus the bulb so the amount of light is the same across the screen. I ran movie theater projectors for 9 years and the bulbs in those have to be focused when they're changed, and then again periodically.

I've still gotta do more research before I finally pull the trigger, since I want something that'll last me at least 10 years. (The TV I have right now, a 40-inch Mitsubishi picture tube set, I've had for 12 years and it's never had to be fixed.) It seems like DLPs would be easier to maintain than flat-panels, since if a pixel on those dies you have to replace the whole set, but the DLP chip which actually makes the picture is small so if anything goes wrong with that you can just take it out and put in another, at a cost of a few hundred dollars vs over 1000 for a new TV. I don't know how expensive the color wheels are to replace if those go. I wanted to wait for the laser sets since those don't need a color wheel, but it sounds like they're going to be around $6000 and I can't go higher than $3000.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Do people really replace dead or defective DLP chips in practice? If it's actually feasible to replace, then that's one more reason to consider DLP.


Don't know about the Mits, but Samsung color wheels seem pretty reasonably priced. I just bought one for my in-laws' 4-yo set for ~$100 from Samsung's website -- color wheels for newer models might cost more. Seems like a bit of a pain to replace though -- ~2 hours of DIY work based on one blogger's guide, assuming one is reasonably handy w/ such things. I'll find out firsthand some time in the next month or so -- maybe over the Thanksgiving weekend.

If the larger 73" is not a must, I'd suggest checking out the Samsung 67" LED-based model instead. No color wheel to worry about (and probably elimination of rainbows in practice), and no bulb to replace -- the LED light should last ~15 years or so on 8 hours/day viewing (for 50K hours total half-life), IIRC. The Samsung LED DLPs do seem to be a bit dimmer w/ a bit worse off-axis falloff though.

_Man_

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

I don't believe that Texas Instruments will supply a chip outside of an entire light engine. A TV manufacturer could make special arrangements with TI but I have not seen any manuals listing them as a separate part. A DLP's major advantage from a durability standpoint is that it has the fewest failure modes. Any time you have an unrepairable product, the one with the fewest ways to fail is usually the best. Since it's been around for a long time, DLP has an edge over other RPTV types.



Samsung seems to be one of very few manufacturers (possibly the only one?) that supplies individual parts for a light engine. (color wheels, light tubes, etc)

Cnet seems to think DLPs might be making a bit of a comeback this Fall. Is rear-pro the way to go for a large-screen TV? | Fully Equipped - CNET Reviews

My personal opinion is that a properly calibrated display viewed from a seated position in a properly lit room at the correct distance, will show very little difference between the various technologies. The flat panels look good in the store (RPTV cannot match that aspect) but must be dialed back considerably in a home environment. Some of them even have a "Showroom" mode that has to be turned off to even adjust the set.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Maybe they've gotten better without the color wheel, but I got a brand new tv under a no-lemon policy on my HLN4365. Here were the repairs:

1. Color Wheel Whine
2. DMD chip had 5 pixels that decided to "stick" in the on position creating a spot of nothing but bright white.
3. Intermittent cycle down - after replacing bulb, ballast, and reseating the safety switch a few times they decided the best option was to cut their losses and replace it.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

LCOS is where its at, then LCD of course.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Holycrap that sounds like one SKINNY TV! It would be as long as a football field, and something like 1" high. It would be really hard to watch a movie on a TV screen with an aspect ratio of 30,000 : 1

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

What is meant by 30,000:1 then?

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Contrast ratio is the usual spec -- ratio brightest white:darkest black.

Since the denominator is so important in this equation, in practical terms for most flat panels it boils down to mean better blacks.

Aspect ratio in picture Width:Height.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Ahhh...well, that was an honest mistake

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

This comment completely eludes me.


Are you saying the comparison is only meaningful between flat panels, not across to RPTVs, etc? OR do you really believe the various quoted LCD ratios can actually be compared directly to those for DLP RPTVs, etc? Actually, would it even be reasonable to directly compare LCD ratios to plasma ratios? I'm of course assuming we're still talking about manufacturer quote specs, not about the *real* ratios (as might be measured by a reliable, independent 3rd party).

I kinda doubt it. OTOH, maybe that could be true for absolute black and absolute white, but the ratios don't tell us how everything in between looks, eg. gamma, color fidelity, plus other issues that LCD are notorious for, eg. motion trails/blur. The inexpensive Dell LCD I use for work seems to have pretty impressive absolute black, but it actually sucks badly for much of the curve in between.

_Man_

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

I've had my Samsung 61" HLN series DLP for a number of years now, and other than warm up time and viewing angle, I have absolutely no complaints. If it's just two of you watching straight on, then you won't care about viewing angle. I understand the new models have a much wider angle than my old one too. It's even a 720p model, and when watching HD on Dish, the pic is perfect, with no "screen door" affect. And I've never noticed any rainbow effects either. Okay, one complaint: tried to hook up a new Blu-ray player to it with DVI input and couldn't get a picture other than some small window on the screen, even through the RGB inputs. It's an older DLP model and I think it's got something to do with compatibility issues. Other than that, I'd buy another DLP, escpecially if price v.s. size were an issue.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

It's honestly hard to know if the quoted contrast specs mean anything since there doesn;t seem to be any consistent way to report measurements. Even within the same company, the quoted specs often vary wildly in the way they are calculated from year to year and even between different models. Dynamic vs static, small window vs full screen, etc.

When measured by unbiased reviewers in a controlled environment and with a consistent method, the numbers almost never come close to the Bling numbers.

AT BEST they are a general measure of contrast ratios and black levels. The smarter folks here can likely explain it better than I can, but I would suggest not shopping for TV's based on sales brochures specs in anything other than VERY BROAD strokes. You wouldn't buy a car based on Manufacturers HP or MPG ratings or a Receiver based on 'Power Specs' and those numbers have at least some legal guidelines they have to follow before they add a fudge factor. Look at the TV's, preferably play with the controls and adjust the picture to some sort of normal values and see which one looks better. If you can find some online professional reviews of a particular model at least you might have a reasonable starting point.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

I work day in and day out with LCD and Plasma montitors and my money went to DLP.

My previous set was a 3 CRT RPTV and honestly my eyes and my brain told me the PhlatLight driven Samsung DLP made perfect sense. The switching time of the PhlatLight is unmatchable by any other technology as is the switching time of the DMD. Eliminating the color wheel and the high intensity bulb was what this technology needed to sustain, I can only hope Samsung will step up advertising and keep the tech alive.

Sadly though, it's cheaper to store Plasma and LCD screens in a warehouse and "wall mounting" is a flashy sales pitch at a B&M store, even though, most will never do it and the depth of these "flat" screens when standing on a base, is as deep as my DLP.


I chose the HL67A750 and I made the right choice! Viewing angle is better than my last RPTV and I never had an issue with the viewing angles on the last set. Bear in mind if you are going with ANY 67" screen you should be at least 8.0' away and at that distance, you will never encounter an issue with viewing angle.

Here is a shot of my 67 in my living room with Journey to the center of the Earth on BluRay (not paused) playing on a Samsung BD-1500.





This is a photo of my car that was loaded onto a USB drive and plugged into the TV. Of course both of these images have been downsized by PhotoBucket. But they are straight out of the camera, no sharpening or post processing done.

I've also checked the geometry and out of the box it looked good to me. I did not measure to the inside edge of the bezel to see if there were any measurement differences but it "looked" straight to my calibrated eye ball.

I have also surfed the net using the TV as a monitor and was equally impressed! Though, 1080x1920 is a bit too large a rez for posting on forums

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Kool!

Brett, I read that the geometry on the 67" seems better than the 61" maybe because of a stronger frame/chassis (that doesn't flex so easily like the 61")? Did you find that to be the case? What about the light output for the bigger screen? Don't they both use the same LED light engine?

I'm sorta eyeing both 61" and 67" for my eventual upgrade. If the price diff isn't that big when I take the plunge, I just might go w/ the 67", especially if the chassis is indeed stronger and yield better geometry.

Thanks for your input.

_Man_

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Man,

There is still noticeable flex in the bezel if you push on it. Once the tv is set up, I don't see this being an issue since you are not putting any force on the bezel but I do wish it was made more rigidly.

I threw up some 1080 test patterns today and was pixel peeping and I do see some slight (1/16th of an inch or less) convergence issue at the upper most right hand corner. It doesn't seem to be an issue on any other side and everything seems to line up well. I am sure I could get into the service menu and adjust the convergence ever so slightly to take care of that corner.

I believe they are both using the same light engine. I'm guessing the current Phlatlight diodes used are more than bright enough that they work as well on either the 61 or 67. I don't know how much larger they could go before needing a double or triple cluster of each primary color Phlatlight.

Even with every light on in my living room (two end table lamps, and two five headed spider lamps each with 5 20 watt bulbs) the screen is still bright, vivid and glare free. In fact the only glare I get is from the camera flash and it's very minimal.

The coatings of the screen work VERY well!

Right now I have a 4GB flash drive in the TV and I have 2 gigs of music on it and a bunch of 1080P wallpaper, I have one static image setting on the screen with a play list of music going, it's fantastic! I need to shoot some photos of the screen with static 1080P photos on screen.

Blows me away!

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

That has been my experience with the 67-inch set, too. With our old Toshiba 56H80 RP CRT, I had to close the drapes during the daytime to cut down on screen glare and avoid a washed out image. While the new Samsung still looks best in a dark room, I can leave the drapes open during the daytime and still get a very watchable picture.

Viewing angle has not been an issue, either. We sit about 12 feet away, so the extra screen size of the 67" set over the smaller 61" one is a plus in our room.

The frame has some flex to it, but geometry seems good to me. I have not brought a grid up on the screen, but the black side bars and top/bottom bars seem straight when watching 4x3 or 2.35:1 material.

I am very happy with this purchase, and glad I didn't wait too long. We were shopping in Traverse City this past weekend, and rear projection TV's were completely absent from the stores we were in -- Sears, Best Buy, and Wal-Mart. Getting an affordable TV over 52-inches in size may soon become quite difficult.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Yep I am in agreement with Scott!

Here are some non scientific photos of test patterns and some eye candy wall paper. When I say non scientific I say so because my camera was not aligned to the center point of the screen along the focal plane, yadda yadda... These are just "pictures" not a documentary.

All the material in these shots is 1080P source (photos from flash drive) and you will notice the minor convergence issue on the right hand of the set. I say minor because it is minor and is only noticed on this one test pattern. You can not detect this on letter boxing or even when surfing the internet. I suspect I can clear this issue up when I get around to it.

This set is NOT ISF'd it's not even home brew calibrated yet. Currently my blacks are a wee bit too black if you notice in the gray scale bar I don't have much seperation. That's running Dynamic which is basically torch mode and oversaturation.

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Ooooo... Aaaaaah...

Yeah, I agree w/ you to some extent, Dave, but it's still pretty cool to see nice looking pics anyway. In this case though, we can probably get a good sense of the geometry issue I was asking about, if nothing else, since color fidelity is (probably) not a significant issue for this (unless the TV somehow requires a compromise between good geometry and good color fidelity). Actually, hmmm... of course, there's also the potential issue of the geometry of the camera lens factoring in here too, if not shot carefully, but oh well...

BTW, Brett, is that your own photo in the 4th pic (or just some wallpaper you found)? Looks great though (like Dave points out) one can't really tell if that's what it really looks like. If it's yours (and that's really what it looks like, not that you can tell exactly how it actually looks on my monitor ), did you do any sort of PS tweaks to make it (mainly the colors) look like that (beyond just the usual minimal postprocessing whether in-camera or elsewhere)?

Thanks again for the contribs, y'all...

_Man_

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

You're right. Looks like Brett shot these pics from higher than normal eye level (pointing the camera slightly downward). That might be what's causing the dimmer bottom side along w/ the slight bit of perspective distortion (creating a slightly trapezoidal look, instead of rectangular 16x9).

So actually, I guess there goes my comment about getting a good sense of the TV's geometry too.

_Man_

Re: Why is DLP so unpopular?

Dave,

You do realize you can click on those 300x400 boxes and get a much larger picture, right? I can upload the original files if you like. As I said in my post these are non scientific, I am not grinding an axe or trying to make any point at all. The grid photos tell the convergence story and that's it... The other photos are just "ohhh fluff" even though my Monitor is calibrated I have no idea if yours is, I have no clue what your color space is (SRGB here), I have no idea what custom settings you may have enabled on your graphics card etc.. I would never post photos of my TV for color reference, heck I can't even get the color of my carpet to turn out right in photos!

I could shoot my 18% Neutral Gray card with a custom WB and the colors on my side would be accurate

My camera angle was indeed, too high and digital photography also blows out of proportion the darkening of the screen off angle, you eyes do not perceive what the camera does. Your eyes also don't suffer from target extinction at Nyquist (well, ok, technically they DO, but it's very high) Also our eyes don't add stair step artifacting or Mosiac artifacting.

But I digress