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GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD - Page 2

post #31 of 60
11/11/08 at 4:14am
Thread Starter 

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
No, it is not possible that the sky was white, yellow, or anything else. There are no clouds, and every print I've ever seen of Gigi, and I've seen a lot, has a blue skies. If Irving Berlin had seen this DVD he would have had to change his lyrics to Brown skies, smiling at me, nothin' but brown skies, do I see.

Isn't it amazing how people try to argue that their $20 was well-spent? Even when faced with pictures...
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post #32 of 60
11/11/08 at 9:04am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
No, it is not possible that the sky was white, yellow, or anything else. There are no clouds, and every print I've ever seen of Gigi, and I've seen a lot, has a blue skies. If Irving Berlin had seen this DVD he would have had to change his lyrics to Brown skies, smiling at me, nothin' but brown skies, do I see.
Brown skies? Hardly. Look at where the shadows fall. It's clear that this shot was made at the "magic hour", which quite frequently displays a pinkish tint in the sky. Y'know, "red skies at night, sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailor's warning."

I think that RAH's comments with respect to the faded OCN need to be considered, because I think that's a lot of what we're seeing here. That, and a lack of colour grading of the shots to level out exposure inconsistencies. Is it the best we're going to see? I don't know.
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post #33 of 60
11/11/08 at 9:51am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

I'd probably be happy with it as long as they removed some of the godawful grain from the old dvd, improved the sound and added some decent extras. But the purple lining in that jewelry box...yeesh!
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post #34 of 60
11/11/08 at 10:10am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Riley
I'd probably be happy with it as long as they removed some of the godawful grain from the old dvd, improved the sound and added some decent extras. But the purple lining in that jewelry box...yeesh!
I agree that the purple lining looks a little odd on the 2008. But who knows? Some shade of purple may be more correct than royal blue -- in the same frame I think that grandma's dress, the chair cushions on the left, and the flowers in the vases in the background and on the left side are much more natural and appropriate looking in the 2008. The 1997 version has these items being various shades of bright fuschia. The dusty rose/red shades in the 2008 seem more correct to me. I don't think we can trust colors on either of these too much.

1997 DVD
GIGICOMPARE8A.jpg
2008 DVD
GIGICOMPARE8B.jpg
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post #35 of 60
11/11/08 at 10:56am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

i watched it last night for the first time, and thought the colours worked fine on the 2008 DVD. Looked great on my meager set up. I just didn't care much for the movie itself.
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post #36 of 60
11/11/08 at 4:36pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Looking at the screen caps I prefer the 2008 version, the 1997 caps all have much too much of a blue tinge too them. I really wish that technicolor made the prints for this film, that would at least give us a dye transfer reference as to which the colors are supposed to look like.
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post #37 of 60
11/11/08 at 6:18pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

MY biggest problem with the 1997 DVD is how dupey and smeary the movie looks overall. What a mess!
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post #38 of 60
11/11/08 at 7:46pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Brown skies? Hardly. Look at where the shadows fall. It's clear that this shot was made at the "magic hour", which quite frequently displays a pinkish tint in the sky. Y'know, "red skies at night, sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailor's warning."

I think that RAH's comments with respect to the faded OCN need to be considered, because I think that's a lot of what we're seeing here. That, and a lack of colour grading of the shots to level out exposure inconsistencies. Is it the best we're going to see? I don't know.

You must quote in context - I think it was very clear that I wasn't talking about the I Remember It Well shot - I'm talking about the shot of the women in the coach, shot in broad daylight and whose skies in this transfer are brown. Never. Not in any print ever. Blue skies, just like Irving Berlin said. I understand what the color of the sky looks like in I Remember It Well - it's sunset - that's a whole different ball of wax.
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post #39 of 60
11/12/08 at 4:49pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

That brilliant sky! (No, tone it down.)
It was so blue! (More yellow-brown.)
Ah yes! I remember it well...
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post #40 of 60
11/12/08 at 5:18pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
You must quote in context - I think it was very clear that I wasn't talking about the I Remember It Well shot - I'm talking about the shot of the women in the coach, shot in broad daylight and whose skies in this transfer are brown. Never. Not in any print ever. Blue skies, just like Irving Berlin said. I understand what the color of the sky looks like in I Remember It Well - it's sunset - that's a whole different ball of wax.
And that's the one I'm talking about. My monitor @ home is calibrated and shows a sky that is primarily white with just a hint of pink, as you would see just before sunset on a red sky night on the eastern horizon. If they wanted blue skies, they should've shot at the right time of day.

EDIT: if you're referring to the screencap of the two women in the carriage in front of the trees, there is barely any sky visible. What is visible is blue.
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post #41 of 60
11/12/08 at 5:18pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennH
That brilliant sky! (No, tone it down.)
It was so blue! (More yellow-brown.)
Ah yes! I remember it well...


HILARIOUS!
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post #42 of 60
11/12/08 at 5:50pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

I'm talking about the shot of the woman in the coach with the little boy facing away from her - the sky is brown - it's not magic hour, it's wrong color timing. You keep saying the same thing, and I keep telling you that the sky in that shot has been blue in every single print I've ever seen of Gigi.

And here's another question for Mr. Harris: I just watched a DVD from Germany of an MGM film from 1958, presumably shot on the same dreaded stock as Gigi. How come there's no fading? Great color, blue skies galore, all well with the world. Just curious.
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post #43 of 60
11/12/08 at 9:23pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

I wasn't laughing at the situation, rather the song. Just to be clear.
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post #44 of 60
11/13/08 at 12:05am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
And here's another question for Mr. Harris: I just watched a DVD from Germany of an MGM film from 1958, presumably shot on the same dreaded stock as Gigi. How come there's no fading? Great color, blue skies galore, all well with the world. Just curious.

Could have come from viable separation masters, which do not exist for Gigi. Not being given a great deal to work with here.
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post #45 of 60
11/13/08 at 9:12am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
I'm probably going to get a LOT of heat for this, but oh well...

I took some frame grabs from the 2008 DVD and opened them up in Photoshop. Then I selected Auto Color, a feature that sometimes wrecks havoc on color and brightness. I didn't go into extensive color correction, level altering or any of that. I just wanted to see what the software would come up with as it is.

I am not a telecine colorist (boy, what a job that would be!) nor do I claim to be. I'm just a person with eyes, and I call things as I see them. The brightness runs a little too hot after Photoshop, but otherwise I think the color balance is somewhat improved. The technicians at Warner could do it right, I'm sure. These altered frames are not what I think the film should look like - merely an example of what additional color correction can provide with the same source.

With some additional color correction, the new GIGI would look terrific. PLEASE, WARNER, DO SOME ADDITIONAL COLOR CORRECTION BEFORE THE BLU RELEASE NEXT YEAR!!!

2008 DVD
GIGI00004B.jpg
2008 DVD (After Photoshop autocolor)
GIGI00004Bcorrect.jpg

2008 DVD
GIGI00012B.jpg
2008 DVD (After Photoshop autocolor)
GIGI00012Bcorrect.jpg

2008 DVD
GIGI00011B.jpg
2008 DVD (After Photoshop autocolor)
GIGI00011Bcorrect.jpg

2008 DVD
GIGICOMPARE6B.jpg
2008 DVD (After Photoshop autocolor)
GIGICOMPARE6Bcorrect.jpg
I agree that the Photoshopped frames are a huge improvement. However, many films are printed with a color bias built in to achieve a certain look or feeling. Some may lean toward green, others blue and other may have color values that are somewhat desaturated. The problem with Gigi it is that no one seems to know what the finished film was actually supposed to look like.
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post #46 of 60
11/13/08 at 10:56am
Thread Starter 

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lidolt
I agree that the Photoshopped frames are a huge improvement. However, many films are printed with a color bias built in to achieve a certain look or feeling.

But the reddish cast on the low to mid range isn't consistent at all on the new DVD release. Many scenes look splendid, mind you, but some have these blacks and shadows that descend into maroon as shown in some of the screen captures. I blame the telecine colorist.

Mind you, there are some shots that I'm not sure WHAT to think of, like the one of the lady coachman and the brown sky.
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post #47 of 60
11/13/08 at 1:29pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

I wish I could be as upset over the differences as many of the posters here, but when I watched the new Gigi, I got so caught up in its magic and music and all around pleasures that I couldn't focus, much less get upset, on the reds (allegedly) not being the "right shade" of red or the sky (alledgedly) not being blue enough.
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post #48 of 60
11/13/08 at 1:31pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Chuck,

Thanks for the photoshop effort. Most interesting.
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post #49 of 60
11/13/08 at 1:52pm
Thread Starter 

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas T
I wish I could be as upset over the differences as many of the posters here, but when I watched the new Gigi, I got so caught up in its magic and music and all around pleasures that I couldn't focus, much less get upset, on the reds (allegedly) not being the "right shade" of red or the sky (alledgedly) not being blue enough.

I couldn't shade the feeling that it looked wrong. It distracted me how red everything looked. It sounds as if you would've been just fine with the older release also.
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post #50 of 60
11/13/08 at 1:53pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Nearly 10 years ago, at one of the American Cinemateque's dye transfer Technicolor festivals, they screened a British print of GIGI that was advertiised as being dye transfer Technicolor.

I wonder where it is and what it might tell us (if anything) about the original release's intended color tones. I wonder if it was screened and studied for color values by anyone at Warner prior to the restoration.

here's the link:

technicolor2000
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post #51 of 60
11/13/08 at 2:13pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I'm talking about the shot of the woman in the coach with the little boy facing away from her - the sky is brown - it's not magic hour, it's wrong color timing. You keep saying the same thing, and I keep telling you that the sky in that shot has been blue in every single print I've ever seen of Gigi.
So it's this shot:


I still say the sky isn't brown. You might want to check your calibration, because I'm seeing pink and my monitor is calibrated. Why do I say it's magic hour? Look at the placement of the shadows: if this was shot in midday, you would have light above the characters in addition to the light directly on them from almost directly opposite their seating position.

All I'm saying is this, the sky isn't brown, but if it's meant to be blue, it's something that could be solved with digital colour grading of the transfer.
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post #52 of 60
11/13/08 at 3:04pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
So it's this shot:


I still say the sky isn't brown. You might want to check your calibration, because I'm seeing pink and my monitor is calibrated. Why do I say it's magic hour? Look at the placement of the shadows: if this was shot in midday, you would have light above the characters in addition to the light directly on them from almost directly opposite their seating position.

All I'm saying is this, the sky isn't brown, but if it's meant to be blue, it's something that could be solved with digital colour grading of the transfer.

Have you watched the sequence that that shot is from in the film? Why don't you. Tell me what time of day it is.
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post #53 of 60
11/13/08 at 3:16pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
Have you watched the sequence that that shot is from in the film? Why don't you. Tell me what time of day it is.

I'm not buying into the color of the sky but nor am I buying into your logic either. If we only allowed films to be shown that were shot to correctly match the time of day portrayed ... we would be out of a ton of films.
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post #54 of 60
11/13/08 at 4:19pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
I'm not buying into the color of the sky but nor am I buying into your logic either. If we only allowed films to be shown that were shot to correctly match the time of day portrayed ... we would be out of a ton of films.

I give up. The poster was saying it was a magic hour shot. Please tell me if that sequence takes place at sundown. Your comment makes no sense at all. If the sequence takes place in broad daylight it cannot have a magic hour look to it (and it's not pink on my calibrated setup - it's brown - but one man's brown might be another's pink). The sky - I repeat for the last time - has been blue in every single print I've ever seen of Gigi and I've seen quite a few and that includes a showing two years ago. Have you? Have you ever once seen a theatrical showing of Gigi? I'm glad some are thrilled with this new transfer - the reason for the thrill, however, seems to be sharpness and cleanliness - those are great and I commend the transfer for those two things. But the color is off and anyone who doesn't see it doesn't want to - it's plain as day in the screencaps and it's plain as day on the DVD. But I'm certainly not going to convince anyone and neither is Chuck, so think what you will, argue as you will, and some fine day that dye transfer print will find its way to a screening and then you can see the truth. Until then, enjoy your DVD.
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post #55 of 60
11/13/08 at 4:47pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I give up. The poster was saying it was a magic hour shot. Please tell me if that sequence takes place at sundown. Your comment makes no sense at all. If the sequence takes place in broad daylight it cannot have a magic hour look to it (and it's not pink on my calibrated setup - it's brown - but one man's brown might be another's pink). The sky - I repeat for the last time - has been blue in every single print I've ever seen of Gigi and I've seen quite a few and that includes a showing two years ago. Have you? Have you ever once seen a theatrical showing of Gigi? I'm glad some are thrilled with this new transfer - the reason for the thrill, however, seems to be sharpness and cleanliness - those are great and I commend the transfer for those two things. But the color is off and anyone who doesn't see it doesn't want to - it's plain as day in the screencaps and it's plain as day on the DVD. But I'm certainly not going to convince anyone and neither is Chuck, so think what you will, argue as you will, and some fine day that dye transfer print will find its way to a screening and then you can see the truth. Until then, enjoy your DVD.

Sheesh Billy. I don't own the new DVD AND I agree with Chuck's findings.

But saying that a shot was taken at a certain part of the day because that's how it is represented in the film is as valid as saying two actors are in love because they are seen kissing in a movie.

I watched Gigi in the theatre and remember it well. I sat right behind you in the movie house. How strong you were, how young and gay ...
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post #56 of 60
11/13/08 at 6:19pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I give up. The poster was saying it was a magic hour shot. Please tell me if that sequence takes place at sundown. Your comment makes no sense at all. If the sequence takes place in broad daylight it cannot have a magic hour look to it (and it's not pink on my calibrated setup - it's brown - but one man's brown might be another's pink). The sky - I repeat for the last time - has been blue in every single print I've ever seen of Gigi and I've seen quite a few and that includes a showing two years ago. Have you? Have you ever once seen a theatrical showing of Gigi? I'm glad some are thrilled with this new transfer - the reason for the thrill, however, seems to be sharpness and cleanliness - those are great and I commend the transfer for those two things. But the color is off and anyone who doesn't see it doesn't want to - it's plain as day in the screencaps and it's plain as day on the DVD. But I'm certainly not going to convince anyone and neither is Chuck, so think what you will, argue as you will, and some fine day that dye transfer print will find its way to a screening and then you can see the truth. Until then, enjoy your DVD.
Did you even bother to read ALL of my post? All I was saying is, the sky ain't brown in the new transfer. Definitely not blue, but it is not brown. i still stand by my belief that it's a magic hour shot. It's too dark to be anything else, and the shadows bear this out. Again, if blue is the intended look for the sky in the shot, this could be corrected by digital colour grading. It's clear from Chuck's caps that the exposure values are all over the place, consistent with being taken from the OCN instead of a properly graded element.

That being said, the positives of this transfer are that it's much cleaner and less dupey looking than the old disc.
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post #57 of 60
11/13/08 at 9:31pm

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

I think we've all said what we have to say, and I'm not beating this particular dead horse again. You can think it's a magic hour shot all you like and I will know that in every print of the film the sky has been blue. The sequence takes place in broad daylight not sunset. I've enjoyed the discussion, and thank Chuck for doing the photoshop thing.
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post #58 of 60
11/14/08 at 12:31am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Just because the sequence takes place in broad daylight doesn't mean that this particular shot wasn't taken at the end of the day's shooting schedule.
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post #59 of 60
11/14/08 at 9:18am
Thread Starter 

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Did you even bother to read ALL of my post? All I was saying is, the sky ain't brown in the new transfer. Definitely not blue, but it is not brown. i still stand by my belief that it's a magic hour shot. It's too dark to be anything else, and the shadows bear this out. Again, if blue is the intended look for the sky in the shot, this could be corrected by digital colour grading. It's clear from Chuck's caps that the exposure values are all over the place, consistent with being taken from the OCN instead of a properly graded element.

That being said, the positives of this transfer are that it's much cleaner and less dupey looking than the old disc.

Yes, the new transfer is sharper, cleaner, and more detailed. It also reveals more information in the frame. If that is all you're looking for, the new release wins hands down.

I want that and more though. That's where I'm frustrated with the new transfer. It should surpass the older transfer in every way, but it doesn't. The older transfer does have a consistent blue bias, but it also at least HAS some blue and the blacks and shadows don't fall apart into being red or maroon (granted, they fall into being blue instead - still not a great standard).

I agree with what Stephen is saying as far as the exposure values being all over the place. One can scan through the disc and see how almost every shot in some scenes don't watch the grading of the previous shot. The opening "Thank Heaven For Little Girls" suffers a LOT in this regard.
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post #60 of 60
11/18/08 at 9:29am

Re: GIGI - 1997 DVD vs 2008 DVD

I noticed immediately that the trees/leaves in the entire opening sequence don't look green, they look yellow/brown.
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