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HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
post #2 of 49
10/20/08 at 2:11am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
No offence, but if you took the trouble to research this very forum, you'll see that this DVD does NOT have the original mono track. What it has is the 5.1 remix, new sounds and all, converted into 2.0 audio.Universal's claim that the DVD has mono is therefore false advertising, and I hope your review will be ammended to acknowledge this
post #3 of 49
10/20/08 at 2:54am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
No sale for me given the above information...
post #4 of 49
10/20/08 at 6:49am
- WilliamMcK
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Since I'm the one who originally posted about the lack of the 1958 mono track I have to ask--did you listen to both tracks? And if you did would you do me the favor of going back and just watching and listening to the opening rooftop chase again and confirm for me that the second English language track is from 1958 and not 1996. It's easy to tell the difference: the 1958 track will have single gunshots; whereas the 1996 track will have a doubling or ricochet effect.Since yours is an official review for a significant web site, I think it's important to be accurate here. If in fact the *original* mono track is included on your set I suppose this means I can exchange my copy for a correct pressing, which is good news. However, if your copy does not include the original track your review is doing a disservice to the movie community in general and to Hitchcock/Vertigo fans in particular. Regardless of one's preference for either the original 1958 or the 1996 reconstructed sound track, I think we can all agree that it is important to make *both* tracks readily available. By not recognizing the gaffe, you give Universal a free pass to release the film in future formats without its original sound track: not a good thing for those of us who care about movie history.
Apologies for my obsessive pedantry regarding this movie--but then why would you expect a fan of Vertigo to be any other way. :-)
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
James, I appreciate your response. But please recheck the other thread and you'll find my post there. And please note that Universal has at no time said that the mono track on this DVD is the original mix, so calling it false advertising is not completely accurate either. (What got WB in trouble with the Superman release in 06 was that they had said it was the original sound mix, and it was clearly a downmix of the new one from 2000. So they appropriately re-issued the disc and sent exchanges to many people, including me.)The reason I said I can't confirm that it's not the original mix is that I cannot locate a DVD or VHS tape with that mix. I have tried for three weeks to do so, but have had no luck. (I have the VHS of the restored version, but nothing else to base a comparison.) I don't feel comfortable conclusively stating what the mix is until I can listen to the original mix myself. Once I can do that, I'll be happy to adjust the review accordingly.
There's another factor we should all keep in mind here. Unless I'm mistaken, Vertigo has not been available in anamorphic widescreen outside of the Masterpiece Collection set. As an individual purchase, it is my understanding that you could only get it the 1998 release with the non-anamorphic transfer. That's pretty significant for me, as I'm watching the film on a display that will make great use of it. If we're comparing to the Masterpiece Collection, I hear you that it isn't a real visual difference. But for those of us, myself included, who did not get that set, and who would prefer to get the film on its own, I honestly think this is a significant difference, and a reason by itself to pick this title up.
You're certainly entitled to the opinion that the title is not worth picking up on the basis of the mono mix, but I would hope that you would take the other factors here into consideration.
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
William, yes the bullets have the doubling effect even on the mono track. I listened to the opening chase all the way through. You guys are probably correct that this is a downmix, but I'd rather hear the original mix on another disc or tape before I conclusively say it. I agree with you that I don't want to be making blanket statements without knowing for sure.I do feel that referring to my review as being a disservice to the film community is an unfortunate statement. I understand where the sentiment comes from, but I do put a good deal of time and attention to my work here, and I don't believe I have earned that comment.
post #7 of 49
10/20/08 at 8:25am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
WHY would they have a MONO downmix of the redone stereo track? Even if they were trying to help out those with only a two channel setup, it would be a 2 channel STEREO downmix, don't you think? That leads me to conclude that Universal THOUGHT they were providing the original mono track and that several people were asleep at several points in this process, and that the thousands of us out here that would recognize the overwhelmingly overbalanced added foley from the recent version weren't there to catch the gaffe. So now what do they do? Rather than repress the disc for a WB style replacement program (sure makes you appreciate WB, eh?), now they say they never claimed that track was intended to be the ORIGINAL mono track? Give me a break!! I'm sorry, but this propensity for Universal to keep releasing these titles over and over with SOME aspect improved (anamorphic for those without the previous boxed set release) and others degraded is a maddening combination of marketing chutzpah and just plain incompetence! Same thing with the original "Dracula". Their continued arrogance regarding proofing their finished product before release and refusal to correct gaffes does not bode well for the anticipated eighth and ninth dip for these films on BD.
post #8 of 49
10/20/08 at 8:51am
- WilliamMcK
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Neal K
WHY would they have a MONO downmix of the redone stereo track? Even if they were trying to help out those with only a two channel setup, it would be a 2 channel STEREO downmix, don't you think?
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I can't speak for Kevin's review copy, but the copy I purchased doesn't have a mono down mix, but a stereo 2.0 down mix. On the audio menu page it's labeled simply as "English" (as opposed to the default track which is labeled "English 5.1"). On the Masterpiece Collection disc the second audio option is labeled "English 2.0 mono." I'd bet that your supposition about "someone falling asleep at the switch" is right on the nose. I wonder if this is a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Perhaps Universal thought they were responding to complaints that the mono track on their Masterpiece Collection Vertigo was in bad shape (it is... but I still prefer it to the 1996 botch). But instead of cleaning up the original mono track they simply created a down mix of the DTS track. Oh... who knows! I wish we could get a release of this very important movie that didn't have these stupid gaffes. At least every couple of years those of us in the NYC area can rely on the American Museum of the Moving Image to screen its original IB Technicolor print in glorious monaural sound (Vertigo works best projected via celluloid on to a big screen anyway).
post #9 of 49
10/20/08 at 9:47am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin EK
James, I appreciate your response. But please recheck the other thread and you'll find my post there. And please note that Universal has at no time said that the mono track on this DVD is the original mix, so calling it false advertising is not completely accurate either. (What got WB in trouble with the Superman release in 06 was that they had said it was the original sound mix, and it was clearly a downmix of the new one from 2000. So they appropriately re-issued the disc and sent exchanges to many people, including me.)
The reason I said I can't confirm that it's not the original mix is that I cannot locate a DVD or VHS tape with that mix. I have tried for three weeks to do so, but have had no luck. (I have the VHS of the restored version, but nothing else to base a comparison.) I don't feel comfortable conclusively stating what the mix is until I can listen to the original mix myself. Once I can do that, I'll be happy to adjust the review accordingly. There's another factor we should all keep in mind here. Unless I'm mistaken, Vertigo has not been available in anamorphic widescreen outside of the Masterpiece Collection set. As an individual purchase, it is my understanding that you could only get it the 1998 release with the non-anamorphic transfer. That's pretty significant for me, as I'm watching the film on a display that will make great use of it. If we're comparing to the Masterpiece Collection, I hear you that it isn't a real visual difference. But for those of us, myself included, who did not get that set, and who would prefer to get the film on its own, I honestly think this is a significant difference, and a reason by itself to pick this title up. You're certainly entitled to the opinion that the title is not worth picking up on the basis of the mono mix, but I would hope that you would take the other factors here into consideration. |
It is false advertising. Mono would lead anyone curious to assume it is the original audio
And Vertigo has had an anamorphic dvd in the UK since 2000
post #10 of 49
10/20/08 at 9:53am
- Ken_McAlinden
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
I suspect it is much closer to a production error than false advertising, but Universal is so traditionally mum about stuff like this when it surfaces that the difference seems academic. Hopefully, they will do right by their customers like they did with the Back to the Future and Jurassic Park DTS discs.Regards,
post #11 of 49
10/20/08 at 10:27am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
I still don't see why they didn't just release this on Blu-ray. After seeing what an HD transfer of Vertigo looks like I can't settle for anything less.See for yourself...
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post #12 of 49
10/20/08 at 10:35am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
And why no mention of the mis-colored opening of the main titles? Sorry, if this release is being compared to the non-anamorphic release of 1998, it's really not an apt comparison, as the Masterpiece Collection DVD has been available for several years, and that's the only one it should really be compared to - Hitchcock fans will have picked that up - and from what I understand the same master was used, but this new transfer looks a bit sharper.As to the sound - you don't need to wait to amend your review - too many people have confirmed that the original mono track, included on the Masterpiece Collection DVD, is not on this new DVD.
post #13 of 49
10/20/08 at 11:54am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
I have the MC box and this, and other re-releases, sound very unnecessary. Sure, I would like to have seen the new featurettes, and some of them sound very interesting and lengthy, but I can't see double-dipping just for those, when the a/v improvements are either miniscule or simply not there.
post #14 of 49
10/20/08 at 12:16pm
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin EK
The reason I said I can't confirm that it's not the original mix is that I cannot locate a DVD or VHS tape with that mix. I have tried for three weeks to do so, but have had no luck. (I have the VHS of the restored version, but nothing else to base a comparison.) I don't feel comfortable conclusively stating what the mix is until I can listen to the original mix myself. Once I can do that, I'll be happy to adjust the review accordingly.
|
YouTube - Vertigo - mono opening scene
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
John Carter, thank you for the submission. When I get home from the day job and can concentrate on that, I'll take a listen.Billy, the reason I didn't go into what the coloration was for the titles is that, again, I don't have a comparison copy to judge at this time. (And I'm not about to use my VHS of the restored version as a model.) I tried over three weeks to rent another copy of this title for comparison purposes and finally went ahead with the review 12 days after it hit the street. If you say there's a color issue in the titles, I don't dispute it. I only know that the transfer I watched on this DVD was superior to what I have seen in the past, and is certainly an improvement over the only other individually available DVD of this title.
William McK, I did not notice any stereo effects on the 2.0 track, but I'll be happy to check that again. I agree with the other posters that if the mono track is the 5.1 downmixed, then it's likely a matter of a production error rather than someone deliberately trying to mislead the public.
James, I'll try to reclarify here. I didn't know about the UK edition of Vertigo being available in anamorphic - primarily because in order to play that title I believe you'd need an All-region player since it would be encoded for Region 2. I was specifically referring to editions of this title available and playable on machines here.
Guys, I appreciate all your input here, but I feel like I've opened a wound for everyone and I'm turning into a pincushion. I recommended this title because I love the film and I'm happy to see a decent transfer of it, with some attention to adding something for the consumer. Granted, the title is a triple-dip - but that assumes that all Hitchcock fans bought the Masterpiece Collection. I didn't. And there are many others who didn't. If they didn't, and the only copy of this film that they have is a non-anamorphic transfer, I don't think this is an unreasonable purchase.
That said, if errors have been made along the lines of Superman or Back to the Future, I agree that they should be addressed, and I'll be happy to amend my review to note the same.
post #16 of 49
10/20/08 at 1:25pm
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin EK
Granted, the title is a triple-dip - but that assumes that all Hitchcock fans bought the Masterpiece Collection. I didn't. And there are many others who didn't. If they didn't, and the only copy of this film that they have is a non-anamorphic transfer, I don't think this is an unreasonable purchase.
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But why wouldn't you? It's an amazing value, and a comprehensive collection.
post #17 of 49
10/20/08 at 1:42pm
- WilliamMcK
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kevin EK
Guys, I appreciate all your input here, but I feel like I've opened a wound for everyone and I'm turning into a pincushion. I recommended this title because I love the film and I'm happy to see a decent transfer of it, with some attention to adding something for the consumer. Granted, the title is a triple-dip - but that assumes that all Hitchcock fans bought the Masterpiece Collection. I didn't. And there are many others who didn't. If they didn't, and the only copy of this film that they have is a non-anamorphic transfer, I don't think this is an unreasonable purchase.
That said, if errors have been made along the lines of Superman or Back to the Future, I agree that they should be addressed, and I'll be happy to amend my review to note the same. |
I understand the recommendation... and I also understand why some would be reluctant to shell out for the boxed set (it was a no-brainer for me, despite limited funds... but that's because I love Hitchcock... were I casual fan, I doubt I would have made the investment under my then [and current] budgetary limitations). But assuming my copy of the Legacy edition wasn't a mis-pressed anomaly, I'd like to see the major caveat appended to the review (and a note about the mis-colored face during the main title sequence too) ... but of course it's your review!
post #18 of 49
10/20/08 at 1:44pm
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
The incorrectly tinted main title problem was on the Masterpiece Collection - someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the monochromatic correct look on the original 1998 release (I don't have it anymore)? Also, a simple query to Robert Harris would enable you to get correct information and amend your review.Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
I'll send a message to Robert Harris.Do I still face a firing squad at noon?
post #20 of 49
10/20/08 at 3:09pm
- WilliamMcK
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
The incorrectly tinted main title problem was on the Masterpiece Collection - someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the monochromatic correct look on the original 1998 release (I don't have it anymore)? Also, a simple query to Robert Harris would enable you to get correct information and amend your review.
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Yes, the first (non-anamorphic) DVD release has the correct monochromatic look to the face during the credits. I've held on to it for that reason alone (even occasionally popping it into the player).
post #21 of 49
10/20/08 at 3:37pm
- Ockeghem
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Kevin EK,Thanks for the review above.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin_EK
Granted, the title is a triple-dip - but that assumes that all Hitchcock fans bought the Masterpiece Collection. I didn't. And there are many others who didn't.
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I love Hitchcock, and have been collecting his films on video for many years. I have moved rather cautiously through the DVD waters. Your review (and your recommendation) helps to unmuddy the waters a bit for me, although I am still gathering information before making any substantial purchases. I appreciate your efforts.
post #22 of 49
10/20/08 at 5:05pm
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
I simply do not understand anyone who loves Hitchcock who did not purchase the Masterpiece Collection - I would say, especially at the time of release, it was essential for any Hitchcock lover and it wasn't as if the set didn't get great reviews. But that's just me.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin EK
I'll send a message to Robert Harris.
Do I still face a firing squad at noon? |
No, no firing squad - some of us would just like the record straight on this release - then people can make up their own minds. Your willingness to fact check is commendable.
post #23 of 49
10/20/08 at 5:21pm
- David Von Pein
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
This YouTube video of the opening scene in "Vertigo", with the proper (and much better) mono sound, also has better-looking video too (less dark than the 2008 release). I'm not sure what the person who uploaded this clip to YouTube did to "lighten" up the opening scene (if he/she got this clip from the 2005 DVD set), but it's definitely lighter than the '08 release. Perhaps this clip was derived from a pre-'96 print. ~shrugs unknowingly~Anyway, the restored version of the film is way, way too dark in some scenes, IMO. You can barely see what's going on.
Why in the world someone thought it was a good idea to make everything ridiculously dark in the opening scene and the bell-tower scene remains a mystery to this writer:
To add one more voice of displeasure with respect to the audio debate: My Legacy DVD positively has no 2.0 Mono track. It's definitely STEREO. And it sounds almost identical to the 5.1 on my 2-channel set-up, btw.
Another "WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO THIS?" notation --- The Menu music for the '08 Legacy "Vertigo" disc is just awful (IMO). Why not just loop the great Herrmann music for the menus? But, instead, some generic music (which has no connection with anything in the film) is looped continuously on all Menu screens (save the "Scenes" sub-menu).
Universal did the same silly thing with the music for the menus of the other 2 Legacy DVDs too. Here we have fabulous music scores for all three films (esp. Psycho and Vertigo), and the music accompanying the DVD menus has none of the films' music at all.
Universal must have taken a page out of the Paramount/Fugitive musical rule book -- i.e., replace music even when it's totally unnecessary to do so.
Absolutely ridiculous.
IMO.
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Robert Harris has graciously answered my questions regarding this DVD.He was not involved with this edition (the Legacy Series), and has not seen it.
He agrees that the color for the title sequence was badly transferred as noted.
He notes that there are no good quality copies of the original mono mix at this time - only 5th generation copies from used 35mm optical prints. He agrees there was no reason to not include the original mono mix.
I am discussing this matter with Ron as far as adjusting the review and the recommendation for the disc.
I still believe that the current disc is a better one than the 1998 edition in terms of the anamorphic transfer, and that people who only have that edition will benefit from the better picture.
post #25 of 49
10/20/08 at 7:57pm
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
| Another "WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO THIS?" notation --- The Menu music for the '08 Legacy "Vertigo" disc is just awful (IMO). Why not just loop the great Herrmann music for the menus? But, instead, some generic music (which has no connection with anything in the film) is looped continuously on all Menu screens (save the "Scenes" sub-menu). |
Ah, yes the menu music. Uh...who cares? Seriously, the menu music is a big deal to you?
post #26 of 49
10/20/08 at 8:42pm
- David Von Pein
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
| The menu music is a big deal to you? |
Who said it was a "big" deal?
post #27 of 49
10/20/08 at 8:48pm
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kevin EK
Robert Harris has graciously answered my questions regarding this DVD.
He was not involved with this edition (the Legacy Series), and has not seen it. He agrees that the color for the title sequence was badly transferred as noted. He notes that there are no good quality copies of the original mono mix at this time - only 5th generation copies from used 35mm optical prints. He agrees there was no reason to not include the original mono mix. I am discussing this matter with Ron as far as adjusting the review and the recommendation for the disc. I still believe that the current disc is a better one than the 1998 edition in terms of the anamorphic transfer, and that people who only have that edition will benefit from the better picture. |
Well, you have all the answers, and one would hope that Ron would concur that it's best to at least include the information in your review - just for the record. You can still recommend the disc, and yes, in terms of the transfer it's better than the ten year old DVD, save for the wrong tint on the main title. Appreciation to Robert Harris for answering, although I'm not sure why he thinks an optical track on a print is fifth generation, or even if somehow it was fifth generation, why an optical track on a print could not be spruced up. I understand there's the original recording (first generation), then the mix (I suppose that's another generation), then the mag track, then the optical, so that's four, but about three years ago I was lucky enough to be shown a 35mm Technicolor print of Vertigo and the optical track sounded great, and the color was pretty amazing.
post #28 of 49
10/21/08 at 12:10am
Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by David Von Pein
This YouTube video of the opening scene in "Vertigo", with the proper (and much better) mono sound, also has better-looking video too (less dark than the 2008 release). I'm not sure what the person who uploaded this clip to YouTube did to "lighten" up the opening scene (if he/she got this clip from the 2005 DVD set), but it's definitely lighter than the '08 release. Perhaps this clip was derived from a pre-'96 print. ~shrugs unknowingly~
|
post #29 of 49
10/21/08 at 6:22am
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin EK
I still believe that the current disc is a better one than the 1998 edition in terms of the anamorphic transfer, and that people who only have that edition will benefit from the better picture.
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I don't disagree. Choosing between the original release and the current Legacy edition is a no-brainer; but it's possible that there are those out there who might have been holding off on the boxed set thinking they'd be able to get the original sound mix to Vertigo when it was released individually. So it should be noted that the only way to get the original mix of this film (albeit in a deteriorated fashion) is through Masterpiece Collection. (And that those who wish to have the credit sequence in it's appropriate color scheme should still hold on to their old non-anamorphic releases).
post #30 of 49
10/21/08 at 6:44am
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Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Vertigo Special Edition - Highly Recommended
Quote:
| Who said it was a "big" deal? |
Your breathless post about it gave the impression that it was a big deal to you.
Moving on: the thing that gets me about this is why didn't they simply release the Masterpiece Collection titles separately? Billy Feldman does not "understand why anyone who loves Hitchcock did not purchase the Masterpiece Collection". I didn't because I had already bought separate issues of Rear Window, Vertigo, Psycho, Shadow of a Doubt and Saboteur. I was pleased with the original anamorphic release of Rear Window, and really only wanted to replace Vertigo and Psycho. The remaining films in the collection are movies I do not want to own (except maybe The Trouble With Harry). I guess that makes me not a "true" Hitchcock fan, but I can live with that.
I still cannot see why Universal would not release the movies from the set individually. Then, all of us (even "non-true" Hitchcock fans) could have had a copy of Vertigo with the mono soundtrack (albeit with improper credits).
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About Home Theater Forum | Join the Community | HTF Chat | HTF Events | Advertise
© 2012 Home Theater Forum is powered by Huddler Tech | FAQ | Support | Privacy/TOS | Site Map









