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WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed - Page 2

post #31 of 61
10/18/08 at 10:34pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
All MGM has done (and it is exactly the same with the ultimate edition DVD) is to slightly squeeze the picture during the credits to bring in the sides and avoid overscan cropping for those who don't have zero-overscan displays.

And maybe not even that. My apologies if this was confirmed or not in the DVD Ultimate Bond discussion since I never read those. Nitpicking is OK to a certain extent, but like arguing grammar you had better have your information correct first or risk looking really bad on multiple fronts.
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post #32 of 61
10/18/08 at 11:41pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P
Omigod, you people are giving me a headache with your confusion over this. All MGM has done (and it is exactly the same with the ultimate edition DVD) is to slightly squeeze the picture during the credits to bring in the sides and avoid overscan cropping for those who don't have zero-overscan displays.

I don't think they squeezed it at all, at least for Thunderball. I looks to me like they simply reduced the size of the over all image so that the edges of the frame would be inside the "TV Safe" over scan area.

All I can say is if this minor adjustment to the image bothers you, your probably paying too much attention to your equipment and not enough to the movie.

Doug
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post #33 of 61
10/19/08 at 2:07am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I don't think they squeezed it at all, at least for Thunderball. I looks to me like they simply reduced the size of the over all image so that the edges of the frame would be inside the "TV Safe" over scan area.

Yes, it is slightly sqeezed. The height of the picture does not change from the credits to the rest of the movie. The Ultimate Ed. DVD I have has the title-less sequence as an extra and it is not sqeezed. Here is a capture from each for comparison:

Thunderball1.jpg
Thunderball2.jpg
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post #34 of 61
10/19/08 at 4:47am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

If part of the titles are cut off due to overscan, then guess what? Part of the image is cut off throughout the entire movie! Maybe they should pillarbox the entire movie to please these people.

I agree that this is annoying, but the solution wasn't for the studios to use pillarboxing, but for the TV manufacturer's to stop producing TVs that overscan.

It is an improper decision for the image size to change during the course of a movie, unless it was originally designed that way. Again, if one part of the movie has its image cropped, then the entire movie has the image cropped! It doesn't help to pillarbox only part of the movie.

The first time I noticed this was in a Criterion movie, and I really think it was a bad decision that I wish would stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter of Mars
You realize we'd be having the opposite thread if the titles weren't pillarboxed and were instead trimmed off the sides of the screen, right?

If the image was trimmed off the side of the screen, then it is a problem with the TV set overscanning, and the complaint could properly be directed at the TV manufacturers.
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post #35 of 61
10/19/08 at 8:23am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by WadeM
If part of the titles are cut off due to overscan, then guess what? Part of the image is cut off throughout the entire movie! Maybe they should pillarbox the entire movie to please these people.

I agree that this is annoying, but the solution wasn't for the studios to use pillarboxing, but for the TV manufacturer's to stop producing TVs that overscan.

It is an improper decision for the image size to change during the course of a movie, unless it was originally designed that way. Again, if one part of the movie has its image cropped, then the entire movie has the image cropped! It doesn't help to pillarbox only part of the movie.

The first time I noticed this was in a Criterion movie, and I really think it was a bad decision that I wish would stop.



If the image was trimmed off the side of the screen, then it is a problem with the TV set overscanning, and the complaint could properly be directed at the TV manufacturers.


The problem is that until about 4 or 5 years ago, every TV over scanned. It was the nature of a CRT. At this point probably 90% of TVs still overscan. And the over scan gets worse over time, unless you get a technician out to adjust it every year or 2.

They are simply making the product for the vast majority of people who are going to watch it.

Also the pillerboxed titles have been on EVERY version of the film I've ever scene, I'm wondering if it may have even been like that for theaters in the original release? Alas I'm not old enough to have seen it in theaters.

Doug
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post #36 of 61
10/19/08 at 10:09am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Alas, I am old enough to have seen it originally, but didn't. I think the first Bond I saw on original release would have been Diamonds are Forever or possibly Live and Let Die.
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post #37 of 61
10/19/08 at 10:16am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P
Omigod, you people are giving me a headache with your confusion over this. All MGM has done (and it is exactly the same with the ultimate edition DVD) is to slightly squeeze the picture during the credits to bring in the sides and avoid overscan cropping for those who don't have zero-overscan displays.

Thank you.

Certainly its not a WTF, smack in the face moment, pillar boxed or squeezed.
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post #38 of 61
10/19/08 at 11:06am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Personally I find the policy of catering to the lowest common denominator totally unacceptable. Spoiling the experience for all just to try and make up for the limitations and faults of some people's equipment is a totally retarded decision on MGM's part. Yes, my opinion would remain the same irrespective of whether I personally have a tv with overscan or not. One's next TV may not have this problem, specially since more and more new tvs are being made with zero overscan, but the Blu-ray will remain the same way forever.
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post #39 of 61
10/19/08 at 11:20am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Modern tvs do not overscan! You can't even buy CRT televisions anymore.

Besides, why would they make a special exception for the title credits? Does anyone really care about the names? No. People watch the credits of a James Bond film for the pretty pictures in the sequence. No one gives a fig if Joe Schmo was the Caterer.

They messed up this disc. Maybe they'd created a version with the opening credits distorted for the purpose of broadcast television (which may have rules about displaying credits in the safe area), and accidentally used it on the BluRay.

Whatever the case, the disc is not right.
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post #40 of 61
10/19/08 at 1:21pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B
Does anyone really care about the names?
Yes, I do.
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post #41 of 61
10/19/08 at 1:43pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
Personally I find the policy of catering to the lowest common denominator totally unacceptable. Spoiling the experience for all just to try and make up for the limitations and faults of some people's equipment is a totally retarded decision on MGM's part. Yes, my opinion would remain the same irrespective of whether I personally have a tv with overscan or not. One's next TV may not have this problem, specially since more and more new tvs are being made with zero overscan, but the Blu-ray will remain the same way forever.


Thank you Sanjay.
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post #42 of 61
10/19/08 at 1:45pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B
Modern tvs do not overscan! You can't even buy CRT televisions anymore.

Besides, why would they make a special exception for the title credits? Does anyone really care about the names? No. People watch the credits of a James Bond film for the pretty pictures in the sequence. No one gives a fig if Joe Schmo was the Caterer.

They messed up this disc. Maybe they'd created a version with the opening credits distorted for the purpose of broadcast television (which may have rules about displaying credits in the safe area), and accidentally used it on the BluRay.

Whatever the case, the disc is not right.


I also care about the names, but all the same the image should not be altered to account for overscan.
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post #43 of 61
10/19/08 at 1:46pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter of Mars
You realize we'd be having the opposite thread if the titles weren't pillarboxed and were instead trimmed off the sides of the screen, right?


Exactly. In either case, it would be wrong.
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post #44 of 61
10/19/08 at 2:17pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

I knew there'd be something with the James Bond discs that fans would be pissed about.
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post #45 of 61
10/19/08 at 5:03pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
The problem is that until about 4 or 5 years ago, every TV over scanned. It was the nature of a CRT. At this point probably 90% of TVs still overscan. And the over scan gets worse over time, unless you get a technician out to adjust it every year or 2.

They are simply making the product for the vast majority of people who are going to watch it.

Also the pillerboxed titles have been on EVERY version of the film I've ever scene, I'm wondering if it may have even been like that for theaters in the original release? Alas I'm not old enough to have seen it in theaters.

Doug

I did not know this. Thank you for the clarification.

Not speaking specifically of this film, but in general though, there should, in theory, be no reason for this on any Blu-ray disc then, unless it was originally designed that way. If someone has a Blu-ray disc, then they won't have an old-style TV.
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post #46 of 61
10/19/08 at 5:08pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B
Modern tvs do not overscan! You can't even buy CRT televisions anymore.


Go into any Best Buy or Wal-mart and you'll see dozens of CRTs, some of them are even HD.

Doug
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post #47 of 61
10/19/08 at 5:10pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by WadeM
I did not know this. Thank you for the clarification.

Not speaking specifically of this film, but in general though, there should, in theory, be no reason for this on any Blu-ray disc then, unless it was originally designed that way. If someone has a Blu-ray disc, then they won't have an old-style TV.


Many, even brand new, flat screen HDTVs still overscan. Probably not as much as a CRT will, but they still do it. When buying an HDTV you actually have to be careful to make sure the model you select will display every pixel, most will not.

Doug
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post #48 of 61
10/19/08 at 5:42pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
I knew there'd be something with the James Bond discs that fans would be pissed about.

Fans weren't happy about this when the UEs were released a couple years ago.

Not new to the Blu-Rays.
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post #49 of 61
10/19/08 at 7:47pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

^I know but I get the feeling that even if it wasn't this, it'd be something else.
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post #50 of 61
10/19/08 at 8:41pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I don't think they squeezed it at all, at least for Thunderball. I looks to me like they simply reduced the size of the over all image so that the edges of the frame would be inside the "TV Safe" over scan area.

All I can say is if this minor adjustment to the image bothers you, your probably paying too much attention to your equipment and not enough to the movie.

Doug
QFT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arild
Oh wow, those people are part of the actual presentation? I always thought they were just other people in the audience. Guess you learn something every day.
They are certainly part of the "theatrical experience"--and that is the term that is so frequently employed.

Quote:
...come on. I think you know very well what people are talking about here. All anybody here wants is to have the movie presented in its original format throughout. Is that really too much to ask?
Where I have said it is "too much to ask"? What I have said (and will continue to say when confronted with it) is that some sense of proportion needs to be maintained when making a complaint about something like this. What is being asked for is not unreasonable. HOW it is being described, by a few, is ridiculous--that is what I have an issue with. Some have recognized the hyperbole was excessive. That's a start. As for others, my little list of the "theatrical experience" is simply illustrating how exaggeration soon devalues an observation.
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post #51 of 61
10/20/08 at 7:18am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

All I can say is if this minor adjustment to the image bothers you, your probably paying too much attention to your equipment and not enough to the movie.

Doug

Actually in this case, we are paying attention to the movie.

If attention is focused on equipment we wouldn't have noticed the aspect ratio change.
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post #52 of 61
10/20/08 at 9:24am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Norman
Bottom line and ultimate question becomes "What did the opening credits look like in the initial presentation?"
Does anyone actually know what was shown on the original prints? If the original presentation showed those small black bars on the side should the DVD/BD not do the same.
I projected the film in an Odeon theatre in the UK in January '66 and I recall quite clearly that some titles were very close to the edge of the screen, particularly the one displayed on post #33, and if your aperture / mask plates weren't cut properly you were in danger of cropping the edge of the credits. The IB Technicolor print that we ran was not pillarboxed on the credits. I recall we did open the screen masking on this film to compensate as we had a little extra picture on the sides to play with and we intended to leave it that way but several weeks later when we ran a Fox 'Scope film, I think it was "Stagecoach", we had to bring in the masking again because of a blue band that ran down the edge of the print between the picture and the perforations was clearly visible.
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post #53 of 61
10/20/08 at 10:01am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

deleted- no need to wade into this fray...
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post #54 of 61
10/20/08 at 3:00pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Go into any Best Buy or Wal-mart and you'll see dozens of CRTs, some of them are even HD.
Doug

You're right - Best Buy sells four, count 'em, four tube televisions. And several dozen lcds.

Walmart sells six tube televisions.
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post #55 of 61
10/20/08 at 3:19pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B
You're right - Best Buy sells four, count 'em, four tube televisions. And several dozen lcds.

Walmart sells six tube televisions.
In all fairness though, there's still millions of CRTs that are already in people's houses and are going to stay there for years to come.
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post #56 of 61
10/20/08 at 7:43pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

...Or at least until Feb 2009, anyway!
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post #57 of 61
10/20/08 at 8:15pm

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

My SD CRTs work perfectly fine and will remain in service well beyond Feb. 2009 (this would be true even if I still lived in the US as I've been using them with digital PVRs for years).
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post #58 of 61
10/21/08 at 10:23am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
In all fairness though, there's still millions of CRTs that are already in people's houses and are going to stay there for years to come.
I'd wager few of those have Blu-Ray players hooked up to them.
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post #59 of 61
10/21/08 at 10:46am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Agreed on the silliness of comments like "punch in the face". But even though I'm past getting worked up over geeky stuff I understand perfectly how frustrating this is to some people. We've all bought DVD releases that were compromised under various least-common-denominator rationalizations but on balance it's nice to have cheap, accessible, good-quality versions of movies we love.

But now Blu-Ray comes along and we all dutifully upgrade our hardware and start buying movie releases that are in many cases double-dips of movies we previously bought and/or rented on DVD...and we find compromises away from the original theatrical presentation under various least-common-denominator rationalizations. You've either got to get mad as hell or just laugh at the Helleresque futility of it all. Somehow its worth remastering or in some cases even redigitizing these films but once more yet again the result just has to be Bowdlerized in some way or another every time you turn around.

Will it ever end? Apparently not.
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post #60 of 61
10/21/08 at 10:54am

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Modern displays are generally set up, from the factory, to employ a sizable amount of overscan. Why? To compensate for the poor quality of cable TV feeds in the period of the middle 1980s to middle 1990s!

Not being bound by "broadcast quality" requirements, cable was often run from 3/4" tape with poor or no time-base correction. The ragged edges & occasional exposure of the vertical interval at the top or bottom of the screen, on sets with minimal overscan, resulted in a lot of unnecessary service calls, & in complaints to the manufacturers. Before this, while older televisions with vacuum-tube electronics suffered from the size of the scanning raster varying with temperature, & so were normally adjusted with enough overscan to avoid exposing the (rather noisy with early cameras & synch equipment) edges of the picture as conditions changed, transistorized sets (which did not have this problem to such an extent) were normally adjusted for minimal overscan.

So, in other words, this windowboxing of the credits is a poorly-conceived response, hanging around long after it has outlived its usefulness, to a poorly-conceived response, hanging around long after it has outlived its usefulness, to a problem associated with insufficient care & low quality standards. It has no place in the High Definition environment, which has offered us an opportunity for a fresh start with high & consistent quality standards.
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