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HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended - Page 3

post #61 of 79
10/14/08 at 2:08pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston

Someone called me on this, so I will have to cite the source. I don't have a specific date yet for the second article (which as I recall was a Daily Variety article), but I do have a scan from the first percentage, which was reported in a 12/5/53 issue of BoxOffice Magazine. You can read it here and here.

Jack,

That was me. The article you posted is fine no need to hunt down the other article. Obviously, the percent of widescreen is commingled with 3D projection making it less than ideal data but I think makes the point that widescreen was major by 1954 (and certainly by 1958). How that translate to one specific film is another matter we don't need to debate.

And Jack, I would not have asked you to cite references unless some guy (coming to your defense) didn't crack wise.

Moving on to 3-D, I have found memories of the 3-D showing at the Lafayette Theatre of the Creature from the Black Lagoon and DOWN THE HATCH (something that I would love to see get wider release).

How's my memory?
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post #62 of 79
10/14/08 at 4:12pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

No problem, Rich. My fear, however, is if I presented Orson Welles coming down from the heavens on a silver platter, some people will still believe what they want to believe.

You are correct that 3-D is included in the specs, but since a) 3-D films were wide-screen by that point and b) 3-D was in decline again at that point makes me believe that perhaps they're not a large part of the percentages taken.

In any case, there are more instances of substantial numbers as they refer to wide-screen, but yes, you are correct in assuming that it was much bigger and faster than most people realize, simply because it was EASY to do.

As I mentioned, BoxOffice continued listing ARs into the '60s. With luck on our side, and a little help from Bob F. who is going to the library to retrieve it, we will have the answers as to what exhibitors were instructed in 1958.

Quote:
Moving on to 3-D, I have found memories of the 3-D showing at the Lafayette Theatre of the Creature from the Black Lagoon and DOWN THE HATCH (something that I would love to see get wider release).

How's my memory?

Ah yes. Good times. "Mimmo, you swallowed the ruby!"

Both films, by the way, are 1.85:1
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post #63 of 79
10/14/08 at 5:14pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
Jack,

That was me. The article you posted is fine no need to hunt down the other article. Obviously, the percent of widescreen is commingled with 3D projection making it less than ideal data but I think makes the point that widescreen was major by 1954 (and certainly by 1958). How that translate to one specific film is another matter we don't need to debate.

And Jack, I would not have asked you to cite references unless some guy (coming to your defense) didn't crack wise.

Moving on to 3-D, I have found memories of the 3-D showing at the Lafayette Theatre of the Creature from the Black Lagoon and DOWN THE HATCH (something that I would love to see get wider release).

How's my memory?

Since I believe your "cracking wise" comment is directed at me, can you please point out this crack that was so wise? Thank you.
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post #64 of 79
10/14/08 at 5:29pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
Regarding the issue of aspect ratio's and Universal studio policy, check out Jack Theakston's accurate and informative post of 10/13 at 3:33 PM.

New DVDs: Touch of Evil | davekehr.com

Well, there's a bit of irony in how research is being shooed away in favor of speculation - sort of like Hank Quinlan's hunches.

And about Welles shooting in 1.33:1 because he was used to it. Since when did Welles have a fear of changing his way of filmmaking? This is the director who made both Citizen Kane and F for Fake at opposite ends of a career.
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post #65 of 79
10/14/08 at 5:46pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
Since I believe your "cracking wise" comment is directed at me, can you please point out this crack that was so wise? Thank you.

Nope. Some guy named James Steffen if you're curious about what was written.
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post #66 of 79
10/14/08 at 7:16pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
Nope. Some guy named James Steffen if you're curious about what was written.

Oh, I thought you meant in this thread. I didn't think I'd cracked wise - it's such an infrequent thing with me

Those people on that Dave Kehr board are something else again. As Jack says, even if Orson came down from the heavens and said what was what, they wouldn't believe him.
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post #67 of 79
10/14/08 at 9:59pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Thanks to those who provided documented background and balance to a thread that began by calling this release of ToE an "oafish violation" and "disaster". At least I now have a grasp of both sides.
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post #68 of 79
10/15/08 at 8:31am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

In all fairness, these are not a bunch of dummies over there. Dave Kehr is probably the most intelligent movie reviewer out there, now that Jonathan Rosenbaum has retired. And Kent Jones is someone I have a tremendous amount of respect for. I think what surprises me most is how two movie savvy people can look at the same image and have such disparate opinions. Virtually every screen cap that has been posted in defense of 1.37 has convinced me that Touch of Evil was indeed framed for 1.85, or possibly 1.66, but not Academy.

My only quibble with the current set (and it's very minor) is, given the controversy, I wish they had just gone ahead and released this as 1.78 and utilized the entire real estate of a 16:9 monitor. But the difference is negligible.
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post #69 of 79
10/15/08 at 8:40am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

I'm not sure how savvy Mr. Kehr is to film technology. He recently claimed that HOW THE WEST WAS WON was the only narrative film photographed in 3-panel Cinerama. When he was corrected and told that WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM was also 3-panel, he said that it was "shot 70mm single strip and converted to 3 panel."

His source for this information? The TCM database.

Research, anyone?
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post #70 of 79
10/15/08 at 9:10am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Pass me a slice, Bob.
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post #71 of 79
10/15/08 at 9:19am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
I'm not sure how savvy Mr. Kehr is to film technology. He recently claimed that HOW THE WEST WAS WON was the only narrative film photographed in 3-panel Cinerama. When he was corrected and told that WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM was also 3-panel, he said that it was "shot 70mm single strip and converted to 3 panel."

His source for this information? The TCM database.

Research, anyone?

Very few critics know anything about film ratios or anything technical. They're as clueless as the people posting in that thread. I'm sure they're all nice people and I'm sure they're film fans, but they are clueless nonetheless.
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post #72 of 79
10/15/08 at 9:28am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Furmanek
I'm not sure how savvy Mr. Kehr is to film technology. He recently claimed that HOW THE WEST WAS WON was the only narrative film photographed in 3-panel Cinerama. When he was corrected and told that WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM was also 3-panel, he said that it was "shot 70mm single strip and converted to 3 panel."

By movie-savvy, I wasn't referring to technology, but the ability to read images. The sloppiness you cite doesn't undercut my appreciation of Kehr's ability to analyze the moving image. Notwithstanding I still disagree with his opinion on the ToE aspect ratio. It is interesting to note that Kehr, Jones and others whose names I recognize from their published writings on film, don't categorically state that ToE was composed for 1.37--only that to their eyes the 1.85 frame looks a little tight, or that the film seems "to live" in 1.37. The ones who are absolutely insistent on the Academy ratio are the ones whose names are only known to me from the internet (which, I know, is an unfair observation... especially since I haven't even scratched the surface of published literature on film... still, it gives me pause...).
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post #73 of 79
10/15/08 at 11:22am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Many people thought The Shining "lived" in 1.37 - it lived if you like to drive trucks through all that extraneous headroom.
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post #74 of 79
10/15/08 at 11:44am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
Many people thought The Shining "lived" in 1.37 - it lived if you like to drive trucks through all that extraneous headroom.

Well "many people" are idiots. ;-) But despite some sloppy research re: Cinerama, I don't think Dave Kehr is. And after reading his BFI monograph on Robert Bresson's L'Argent, I'm quite certain that Kent Jones is no idiot.

Don't mean to play devil's advocate here, because I'm in complete agreement with you. The fact that I disagree with some very well known film scholars doesn't shake me from my opinion that Touch of Evil in 1.37 is wrong. However, my disagreement with some of them on this point doesn't mitigate my high opinion of the rest of their published work.

And just to clarify: I don't mean to imply that I think all the people contributing to the Touch of Evil thread on Dave Kehr's site are movie masterminds. I think there are a lot of kooks contributing over there... but there are some very bright people as well (who happen to be mistaken ;-)).
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post #75 of 79
10/15/08 at 11:47am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamMcK
Well "many people" are idiots. ;-) But despite some sloppy research re: Cinerama, I don't think Dave Kehr is. And after reading his BFI monograph on Robert Bresson's L'Argent, I'm quite certain that Kent Jones is no idiot.

Don't mean to play devil's advocate here, because I'm in complete agreement with you. The fact that I disagree with some very well known film scholars doesn't shake me from my opinion that Touch of Evil in 1.37 is wrong. However, my disagreement with some of them on this point doesn't mitigate my high opinion of the rest of their published work.

I know a little of Kehr's work, but none of Kent Jones - I'll check out that monograph - thanks for the tip. And I know Blake Lucas from the Alain Silver/Elizabeth Ward Film Noir book - and I don't care for his writing there.
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post #76 of 79
10/15/08 at 1:25pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Seems to me it comes down to:

Pro- 1.85: 'That's the way it was composed, that's the way it was released, that's the way it was projected. Those no-nothings that see a lot of image imagine that the filmmakers intended it to be shown. How clueless are they ... hey when's the next meeting of those that know stuff?

Negative - 1.85: 'There is no way that Welles composed Touch of Evil at 1.85. It not only goes against his body of work but open your eyes ... it looks like crap.

Time to move on.
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post #77 of 79
10/15/08 at 6:59pm

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

There is a third option: "I agree that Welles shot it with the intention of projecting it at 1.85, but I think it looks better at 1.37".
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post #78 of 79
10/16/08 at 6:18am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B_K
There is a third option: "I agree that Welles shot it with the intention of projecting it at 1.85, but I think it looks better at 1.37".

Fine but that won't cut it here. You can't have your cake and eat it too because if we go down the route of altering films against a filmmaker's intentions we can't complain when studios do the same thing.

The only way to that end is to believe it truly 'unclear' what Welles' intention were.

Meanwhile we have a DVD producer (Rick Schmidlin) who is calling his version the "restored" and "definitive" ' version who obviously doesn't know what the word restoration means. A guy who substantiates his claims based on living room conversations with 87 year-old editors about films 40 years prior. A guy who just recently got called out for his "authoritative" DVD commentary claiming that Welles wrote his 58 page memo without screening notes even though Welles wrote about writing notes in the memo Schmidlin packaged with the DVD. Did he just admit to being wrong and move on .... nope. So, what credibility does he have remaining?

So, it seems that Welles' intention has little basis in fact either way. One side features Welles composing for Academy and liking Academy the other side features Welles as a savvy industry pro composing for the de facto widescreen standard of 1957-58. Take your pick.
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post #79 of 79
10/16/08 at 6:48am

Re: HTF DVD REVIEW: Touch of Evil 50th Anniversary Edition - Highly Recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
Meanwhile we have a DVD producer (Rick Schmidlin) who is calling his version the "restored" and "definitive" ' version who obviously doesn't know what the word restoration means. A guy who substantiates his claims based on living room conversations with 87 year-old editors about films 40 years prior. A guy who just recently got called out for his "authoritative" DVD commentary claiming that Welles wrote his 58 page memo without screening notes even though Welles wrote about writing notes in the memo Schmidlin packaged with the DVD. Did he just admit to being wrong and move on .... nope. So, what credibility does he have remaining?

So, it seems that Welles' intention has little basis in fact either way. One side features Welles composing for Academy and liking Academy the other side features Welles as a savvy industry pro composing for the de facto widescreen standard of 1957-58. Take your pick.

Well maybe Schmidlin has since been coached by Jonathan Rosenbaum, but in his commentary, at least, he is careful about how he refers to his cut of Touch of Evil. Even back in 1998, it was made very clear by anyone who read more than the studio blurbs on the movie page in the newspaper ads that this wasn't a director's cut... because no such thing could exist.

One could also believe that Welles/Metty framed for a non-academy ratio without being "savvy industry pros." That phrase implies an insider status that clearly Welles didn't possess (nor had any interest in possessing--at least since his post-RKO years).

Wow--the reductionism and slippery wording that has gone on here on both sides of this debate reminds me of what I was watching just last night. ;-)

This much is true... there is no documentary evidence (that I've been made aware of) of what Welles' or Metty's intentions were. My personal preference for 1.85 (actually I think I'd prefer 1.66, but never mind) comes from viewing the films in both ARs and a knowledge (admittedly, second hand) of U.S. projection practices ca. 1958 (a knowledge one didn't need to be "a savvy industry pro" to share).
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