Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD - Page 2

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

The lack of lossless on some of the new releases is a bummer and reading some of the replies here it seems the problem may well be the production capacity rather than Warner just choosing to do this for fun. If that is the case then I will happily wait for the "double dip" when the production issues can be sorted out.

I think it does make sense because Warner clearly releases more titles than anyone so if they have a set allotment of BD50s then obviously some movies will get the shaft. Me personally, I'd rather Warner just delayed discs until they can get them "right" but sadly the business world doesn't work that way and the double dip (not just in HT but every industry that has double dips) is the way companies roll.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

It's not just Warner. As I noted above, Universal's U-571 was widely cited for having a less detailed image on Blu-ray than on HD-DVD. This is no doubt due to the Blu-ray's having a lossless track, which the HD-DVD did not, and the Blu-ray is a BD25.

I don't know about anyone else, but for the foreseeable future, I'll wait for reviews before buying any Uni titles released on a BD25. I think they're struggling under the same production pressures as Warner -- maybe even worse, since they had no existing Blu-ray presence when the format war ended.

M.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

It seemed that while others were pretty happy with what had been achieved so far Warner was the only studio that was not satisfied with only being a bigger niche fromat than last year, so we surely should encourage them to drive Blu-Ray forward. As most posters on here like classic movies we need a more aggressive approach - low numbers of software and hardware sales mean less classics as only the new releases reach the critical mass needed to make some money.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

I was only talking about the missing lossless tracks. But I agree that what Universal did was even worse. I'd certainly prefer DD+ and the same PQ to TrueHD and compromised PQ

I completely agree about waiting for reports about new titles first - with low BD50 capacities and some bad transfers thrown in for good measure here and there one might end up with a number of titles that are at best worth a rental.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Your comments are well stated. The format was born not ready for prime time, and it still isn't, so far as production capacity. And again, this isn't a rehashed format war remark.

I wasn't aware that Warner had expressed their opinion in that way, but it still remains that Warner is releasing products that potential customers feel are compromised or sub-standard. Perhaps until the production problems are solved, Warner should release fewer titles. The public is already primed to expect a somewhat slow roll-out of titles in a new format...better to have them continue in that frame of thought, than to release products that are perceived as "thin" or compromised; it creates disappointment where it didn't previously exist. In short: You don't miss what you never had.

In the past, through the lifetime of multiple formats, I've made too many double dips to mention, most of them unwisely from a purely economic point of view. It will NOT happen with titles related to this issue. Just my two cents. One cent, adjusted for inflation.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

hmm the first paragraph is a rehash of old format war talk, why isn't blu ray ready for prime time? because of production limitations? Could someone please supply some links for the information that says production plants are at capacity and that's why warner et al are releasing Blu rays with lower resolution audio...! I'm sorry guys but that sounds like nonsense.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

That remark was in reference to the notorious problems that BD had right out of the starting gate. I'm not sorry that BD won the format war...somebody needed to come out on top. I didn't invest so heavily in HD, as to have intolerable regrets about the outcome.

The talk about production capacity relates to BD50 capacity only, not BD25 capacity. The BD50 production problems are well documented.

With BD sales and market penetration being supposedly disappointing, it's all the more ironic that the "powers-that-be" in the BD community, carry on in a rather unprepared mode. It isn't logical to expect great public acceptance, when production standards and/or capacity aren't up to the task. Brings to mind an old axiom: You have to spend money in order to make money.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Nor me, I was fence sitter until the whole thing was resolved. I think I'm going to have to go do a bit research re production bottle necks me thinks..

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Good point and probably the best solution for now. I guess Warner did not really want to cancel releases thoughb that they had already announced - not every studio takes these things as easy as Fox

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

This becomes the catch 22 however. To attract a new user base the studios have to release new product every week. There has to be the perception that blu-ray is alive and vital. Cut back on the releases and there maybe a perception that blu-ray is dieing a slow death.

If blu-ray is ever even going to be the next generation and not just a niche people have to be excited by it, and people don't get excited when there is just a trickle of movies coming out.

Doug

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

I agree. I'd love to pick up The Thing, but will have to wait for a qualified reviewer or screenshot comparisons by Xylon.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

From your other thread:

You do realize, don't you, that when you hear films in the theater, you're not hearing them in lossless audio?

M.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

I don't think this is fully (or even vaguely) appreciated by the "no lossless, no sale" contingent. Perhaps a sticky?

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Dolby Digital, on 35mm prints, has a fixed bit rate of 320 kbps.

For DTS, in 35mm exhibitions, the actual audio is recorded in compressed form on standard CD-ROM media at a bitrate of 1,103 kbps.

It is possible, however, to hear lossless or uncompressed audio in a digital cinema, per DCI.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

I don't think stickies make any difference when it comes to matters of "faith".

However, this does speak to the issue of why "hi-def" should not be deemed to equal lossless audio. If the touchstone remains the reproduction of a theatrical experience in the home, then HD video is essential for producing a film-like image -- indeed, it's the first time video has had sufficient resolution to do so (as RAH has said on many occasions).

Lossless audio, however, is not at all essential to such reproduction. As Doug Monce and others have pointed out, many of the sounds used to create movie soundtracks are themselves lossy in their original form.

I have nothing against lossless, and I've praised lossless tracks in Blu-ray reviews I've written. But this latest fixation on them to the exclusion of all other issues leaves me cold.

How many cinemas in America today are so equipped? As I understand DCI, its purpose is to develop a set of specifications. The implementation is another matter. I'm talking about what people are hearing in cinemas now, not what they may be hearing in the future.

M.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Higher resolution than the theater (and higher than standard DVD) isn't worth something to you?

In every double blind test reported to date, people have not been able to distinguish between the uncompressed source and Dolby Digital at 640 kbps, which is what Warner used on Speed Racer and will presumably use on Journey to the Center of the Earth. That's why it's considered accoustically transparent.

M.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

I'll be honest I'm only in Blu-Ray for the picture quality.

Is lossless so much better than DTS? Also, Do you you have to have higher end speakers(and speaker cables) to fully appreciate it? Because I have a pretty mid grade home theater set up. Thanks!

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

I like a release to contain lossless and I think it should, however, I will still purchase a BD movie even if it's without it. PQ is #1 for me.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

But only if the special cinema has a digitised movie that conforms to the proposed standards. I think Inside Man was the only commercially available DCI movie, and I'm not sure even about the sound tracks of that one.

Serenity also did have one DCI showing, but it has never been widely distributed (in fact: not distributed at all, AFAIK) as such.


Cees

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

The PUBLIC as you call couldn't care less about the Blu-ray format as they watch their DVDs and HD broadcasts and are quite content.

I for one would like to see MORE titles to feed my new Blu-ray player - not less.

BTW I just sent a letter to Warner Bros expressing my satisfaction for the release of HOW THE WEST WAS WON!!! I think letters praising outstanding releases would have more effect than angry bitchy letters.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Good for you. We tend to over-focus on the bad and WB has done a lot of good releases. They need to know that we appriciate their work on those titles and that we are buying them and will buy more like them.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

You make a valid point, but I think that the nature of the experience is completely different. The experience of listening at home, especially with a higher end audio system achieves much more in the way of richness and subtlety. Theaters are intended to be overwhelming sensory experiences, where we're awed by a 40-foot (or whatever) screen and high horsepower audio that we're supposed to feel as much as hear.

I'm not a "no loss-less = no sale" person, but these titles are bound to be released again with loss-less audio and who knows what other added perks, and that's part of the issue. Warner hasn't released a statement about the matter, so we're left to wonder if this is a fundamental new approach on their part, separate from the BD50 problem. Either way, it's fair and reasonable for people to express themselves about it in a tactful manner. It would be much easier for consumers to know how to react if they knew about Warner's philosophy and intent; otherwise all we can do is wonder how long to let it go without a response. We're left to wonder about their next decision, and how shocking it might be.

I didn't pay nearly as much attention to the audio presentation of a film until hi-def came along. Since then I've been carried away by many an audio presentation, and all of them have been via loss-less audio. Maybe that's just coincidence.

As far as I'm concerned, the title itself is most important, followed by video presentation, then audio presentation. The overall issue is the promise of hi-def, and BD in particular. The capabilities are there, and they should be maximized unless there's an over-riding reason for not doing so. If lower res audio is just a part of Warner's new philosophy, then it's worth our feedback. If it's purely the BD50 issue, then there's more than one approach. Since Warner does release such a large volume of work, I don't think the public would object to a slower roll-out of certain titles, if the public understood why; that's where we get back to a statement of intent, from some reliable source.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

the other "catch-22" i can think of is if u don't buy the BD now, WB will deem it less profitable to 'double dip' later on and therefore u just might not see that 2nd dip for a LONG LONG TIME. it's almost like we have to buy the lossy version first... before they 'award' us with the lossless. that to me, is the conundrum.

re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Warner really pisses me off. There are still a lot of movies I want, but I hate those snapcases so much I refuse to buy the SD releases. I can't believe they haven't been completely phased out yet.

Warner's lack of lossless audio on Blu-ray

Here is a nice article I copied from *HDTV News, Views & Reviews. It has some good points about the lack of lossless audio on titles like Speed Racer and Journey to the Center of the Earth.



Warner's Blu-ray Discs Have Me at a Loss

I am somewhat disturbed at the recent Blu-Ray releases from Warner Brothers for their failure to include a lossless audio track. In particular, the last two major releases from Warner Brothers on Blu-Ray, namely Speed Racer and Journey to the Center of the Earth, did not include either a Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio track. All that was included was a plain ole Dolby Digital track of the kind found on the standard DVD.

As far as I am aware, there has been no explanation from Warner Brothers as to why a lossless track was not included on either release. I can only surmise that a lossless track was not included for reasons of lack of space. Speed Racer was issued on a 25 GB disc which had less storage capacity than at dual layer HD DVD. Perhaps, given tight space, Warners decided that they would rather maximize the video encode at the expense of the audio rather than compromise both. However, that could have been avoided had the release been issued on a 50 GB disc which would have provided more than enough space.

I find it very odd for Warners to abandon HD DVD partially due to its lack of storage capacity as compared to Blu-Ray and yet, issue a major release without a lossless track. The same is true for Journey to the Center of the Earth. While Journey was issue on a 50 GB disc, I can only assume that there was not enough storage capacity for a lossless track while including a 2D and 3D version of the film on the same disc. If that were the case, the film should have been issued on two 50GB discs, one 2D with a lossless track and one in 3D with lossless track.

Amazingly, a film like Run Fat Boy Run, issued by Warner Brothers via their New Line subsidiary, was not only issued with a DTS HD Master Audio track, but a 7.1 track to boot. While I enjoyed Run Fatboy Run, it did miniscule box office compared to either Speed Racer or Journey to the Center of the Earth. If Run Fatboy Run warranted a 7.1 lossless track, it is really hard to argue that Speed Racer and Journey to the Center of the Earth didn’t warrant at least a lossless 5.1 encode.

I would suggest to Warners that all their movie releases on Blu-Ray include a lossless audio encode in either Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio. Lack of disc space should not be an issue. All major releases should be issued on a 50GB disc which would have more than enough space for a lossless track. Any 3D version of a film should have its own separate disc to insure the inclusion of a lossless track. Given the premium prices being asked for Blu-ray releases, they should include not only the best video presentations but the best audio presentations as well. Standard DVD just does not cut it.

Re: Warner's lack of lossless audio on Blu-ray

If by "nice", you mean "agrees with one's own thoughts", yeah. Nothing we haven't read on the forum, with even less exploration of just why Warner might have wound up using a BD-25 for Speed Racer than the average thread on the subject.

Re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Most of Warner's lossy-only BDs had plenty of room for lossless via Dolby TrueHD, even though some of them are BD25. Some recent titles that had room for lossless but still didn't get it include Interview With a Vampire, Cool Hand Luke, and the new A Christmas Story... all which got lossy Dolby even though there was plenty of bitspace/bandwidth for TrueHD. There may be some BD25 titles that genuinely don't have space for TrueHD, but that list is much smaller than the number of lossy-only titles Warner continues to release.

Warner's primary problem seems to be one of internal politics and a lack of regard for audio transparency except when they feel it really matters... unlike other studios who manage to put lossless out on every title, BD25 releases included. Warner has even released lossy-only audio on some BD-50 releases if they deem the audio doesn't warrant (a false assumption that some material deserves lossless, and some does not, revealing that someone in the production chain lacks an understanding of the benefits of lossless versus lossy).

Perhaps they're using lossless as a ploy to play hard-ball with contracts for an increased share of BD50 replication. But the actual connection between BD25 and lack of lossless audio is one of choice by the studio. One that needs to change, and fast.

Re: Writing a letter to Warner about lack of lossless audio on their BRD

Regarding #4

those of use with laserdisc collections can hear the "clear" benefits of lossless audio even with old mono source material from vintage films.

Even a constricted, hiss-filled mag mono track will sound better left alone that with the added compromise of psychoactoustic reduction. In fact, the noise in old recordings might even tax the compresion algorithms making their effects more noticable.

Sony has released a number of 1950's films on Blu-ray with TrueHD and the option to play the core 640 kbps DD track as well. These are low-budget films from the 50s... not epic classics that would have received top-teir audio mastering in their day. Even with the audio tracks of such "B grade" 50s movies, you can hear the more open, natural sound of the lossless encoding in comparison to the 640 kbps DD lossy alternative.