Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection - Page 4

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I don't think HRI does this unless it's the PD L&Hs.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

This post at the Little Rascals site says there are at least two additional Blackhawk prints not previously reported ("Anniversary Troubles" and "Little Papa"). This brings the total to at least 15. Blackhawk was indeed a great company. That's not the issue; the issue is that the use of their prints wasn't necessary. Better material is known to exist.

My set is still in the Amazon mailer as I ponder what to do. This was easily my most anticipated release of the year and I was all primed to nominate it as "Set of the Year" at the year HTF awards. This has shifted over to the "Biggest Missed Opportunity" category.

The wrong prints being used for 15 shorts may not have been a deal breaker by itself, but the growing list of problems with out of synch audio, poor prints on certain shorts, and the sloppy editing on the liner notes has created a great sense of disappointment. This really is a personal judgement call for each HTF member to decide for themselves whether or not to keep this.

Genius may only be the distributor but its still their name on the product and they need to stand behind their release and explain why there are so many issues that are leaving the OUR GANG fans upset. Has anyone who has contacted Genius gotten a response? I haven't although it's only been 3 days.

Thanks to all who have posted their comments, both pro and con. That's what makes HTF such a valuable resource. The fact that there are such stong feelings on both sides speaks well of how popular these shorts still are and how much their fans want them to be treated with the care they deserve.

Steve

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I've been reading this thread for a few days now.

Yes, I'm disappointed that apparently this isn't all that was promised. But I haven't gotten my set yet, so I'm reserving judgement.

HOWEVER, I do have a problem with the severe negativity in most of the posts. Only a few posters have actually seen the product. From the people who have seen it, there is a mixed reaction - some people have found problems, others have seen improvement.

Only one person has posted who has compared the new set to the Cabin Fever set, and they reported no difference in visual quality. As for the other reported problems - sound sync, scratches, etc, has anyone bothered to see if these same problems were on the Cabin Fever stories?

As for the Blackhawk source problem, we don't actually know what the source was. What we do know is that Blackhawk sold 16mm films. I haven't been able to find out, and no one has reported, what Blackhawk's source was. They may have had 35mm prints as their originals. Maybe they didn't. The point is, we don't know, and for people to automatically assume that everything they owned was in 16mm is like assuming that since I bought a pan-and-scan movie on VHS in the 80's from Paramount, all Paramount had in their vault was a VHS pan-and-scan print.

I just wish we had more true facts, and less hatred and rumormongering

OK. I've ranted enough.

David

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

We need a short by short comparison between this and the old Cabin Fever DVD box set.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Not only that, he's married to Jane Powell! BTW, the real Scotty Beckett (who played Jane's brother in A Date With Judy) died a suicide in 1968:

Scotty Beckett - Biography

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I've complained about the out-of-synch audio on A LAD AN' A LAMP, and the audio was fine on the old Cabin Fever edition. Someone else said that CHOO-CHOO looked poor on the new set, but had been cleaned up on the old Cabin Fever edition.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I've compared one Cabin Fever release, "Hide and Shriek," to the new set. This is a short that opens with the Blackhawk tite on the new set, though the original "The End" closing card remains intact. Both had the sharp, clean look that I've come to expect from 35mm transfers, though to my ears the audio on the Cabin Fever version had less noise.

Some may be expecting a bit too much, as the Cabin Fever releases that I have can't be described as pristine. There are plenty of scratches, and noise is present in the soundtracks. Given the age and sloppy treatment of the source material over the years, it's a miracle that many of these look as good as they do now.

Someone in this thread was very disappointed in "Choo-Choo" on the new set, so I pulled it last night to take a look. Personally, I was pleased. It was a 35mm transfer, with the original title cards, with gorgeous sharp images and perfect contrast. There was evidence of persistent scratches on the original negative, especially during the second reel, which the previous poster did take issue with.

I haven't seen the Cabin Fever version of "Choo-Choo," but it wouldn't surprise me if it suffered from the same issues. I have, though, seen the Cabin Fever ad featuring a before/after clip from this short on their VHS releases. The version on the new set looks much more like the "after restoration" than the "before restoration" comparison that is seen in that ad.

Again, I'm not excusing the title card replacement...it's the last thing I was expecting from this set, and it was a major disappointment. However, the set is not the total disaster that some would have you believe...and I'm at least happy that the music which accompanied the original title cards is still intact on the shorts that I've viewed so far...right down, oddly, to the MGM lion roar at the start of one of them.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I'm waiting for DVD Beaver to do a screenshot comparison at least. No sense rushing out to buy this, it will be around for years in the secondary market anyway.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Actually, the Criterion DVD W.C. Fields: Six Short Films has UM&M TV titles on most of the Paramount shorts (some end title cards are blacked out completely) and a print of "The Dentist" which has fully restored original Paramount titles, but is the altered Raymond Rohauer version with added music (cut in from some compilation feature film that included the kitchen scene).

So maybe this is Criterion-worthy!

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I wonder what reason they gave Scotty Beckett when they replaced him with Alfalfa Switzer as Spanky's official "chum" in '36, other than, "well, we have a hard-on for Alfalfa, so out-- you-- go!"

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Disc 1 arrived from Netflix today and I've skipped through some of the shorts and I'm thinking the same thing. I think people got their hopes up way too high. Everyone who owns the R2 L&H sets calls the transfers "pristine" but they're very far from that and if these same transfers get released here I'm very positive that people will be murdered, tortured and possible suicides might follow. The prints are full of scratches, splices, speckles and some of the audio is so full of hiss that it'll drive you nuts.

I'm just curious if the Cabin Fever titles were so "clean" for their time that people are now upset because even more wasn't done with them. I'm sure those CF tapes were a major step up from old broadcasts people were watching but I doubt they'd even come close to a Criterion type quality today.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Keep your CABIN FEVER DVDs if you were fortunate enough to snag them while they were available. You can still get a box set for $50 on the internet which houses the first half. I have the second half on LASERDISC and I'm keeping them. Also, in defense of the colorized Little Rascals, they used the FAMOUS KIDS versions, but apparently they found original nitrate stock and they are equisite in appearance and sound! They are also offered in original B&W as well.

As far as using the Blackhawk prints, I could have stomached that if they had just SYNCHED UP THE SOUND! That is so basic and how they could have gotten the sound so off synch is unbelievable! They need to offer replacement DVDs!

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

buttmunker wrote:
Cute; but in Scotty's case, I don't think he was given the heave-ho; he was probably sought out for better and bigger projects. Same thing happened to Dick Moore and Jackie Cooper, to name a couple. But yeah--some of the Gangers got too old and lost their Cute and were let go from the series.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Everything is relative. Over the years a lot of the Hal Roach material, including the Rascals and L&H, went through a lot of hands and it's evident viewing them today. There is only so much one can do with 70 or 80 year old film -- we're lucky a lot of these films even survive in any form. There are still several Our Gang silents that are considered lost. The L&H silent short "Hats Off" (which inspired "The Music Box") has been written off as "gone forever" for decades. Only a few bits and pieces of "The Rogue Song" have been found. The second reel of "The Battle Of The Century" is long gone, apart from whatever excerpts Robert Youngson used in "The Golden Age Of Comedy." When the L&H and Rascals shorts were airing on TV, there would frequently be occasional black frames where footage was missing. On the Image DVDs of the silent shorts, they don't do that, but they use occasional freeze-frames instead.

So I agree, you have to take into consideration what the DVD makers have to work with. And I would much rather see it looking "authentic" rather than with excessive DVNR or whatever because, horrors, this is in black and white and there is film grain on it! (Gasp!)

The issue really is...what happened to the already-done restorations? (And even the sometimes-cut King World TV versions that AMC aired had their original titles reinstated, which was a huge surprise to me.)

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

One other question that still perplexes me:

I haven't picked the new set up yet (so I'll refrain from commenting on it, apart from knowing that some of the shorts have home-movie titles etc.) but this has prompted me to pull out some older Our Gang DVDs from Goodtimes and Legend Films. And here is what I don't understand:

The Hal Roach shorts "Schools Out," "Bear Shooters" and "Our Gang Follies Of 1938" have been showing up on public domain releases for decades (usually with their original theatrical titles). The M-G-M short "Waldo's Last Stand" is on several PD releases too.

But both Goodtimes and Legend have released several other shorts, obviously not licensed through RHI or King World or whoever. For instance, the Legend Films set includes "Fly My Kite," "A Lad An' A Lamp," "The Kid From Borneo," "Hi' Neighbor," "Hide And Shriek," "Our Gang Follies Of 1936," "Washee Ironee," "Shrimps For A Day," "Choo-Choo," "Night 'N' Gales," "Free Wheeling," "For Pete's Sake," and "Divot Diggers." Some of these also appear on various Goodtimes releases, as do other presumably non-PD shorts. But in every case across the board, the title sequences are from theatrical or TV reissue prints (Monogram/Allied/Interstate) or home movie editions (Official, Erko). The latter two do not use the "Little Rascals" name (they call the series "Famous Kids Comedies" and "Kids And Pets Series," respectively). However, if the short in question is one of the four PD titles, they do have the original title sequences.

Apparently, this is some kind of legal loophole. But just how does this work? It can't be that simple -- use a reissue version and presto, they aren't under copyright. Or can it? The reason I ask is Goodtimes released a whole bunch of these -- and weren't they a company that always crossed their Ts and dotted their Is in regard to copyright issues?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

That'd I'd love.

I actually still have all four laserdisc boxsets. Was keeping them around to transfer to DVD until the Genius release came out. Now I'm debating whether to move forward and make my own Cabin Fever DVDs (from the laserdiscs), just accept the Genius versions, or do some kind of 'hybrid' that blends the best of both worlds.

What to do...what to do...

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I have the four volume laserdisc collection and intend the weekend to compare to the DVD. At the present I will keep the laserdiscs since they have so many of the silents on short on them. The Sunset Ltd is one of the their classic silent shorts and every time I show it to friends that have not seen it, they are falling on the floor with laughter. When and if ever Laughsmith comes out with a collection of the silents is when I will decide the fate of the Laserdiscs.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Transfer the laserdiscs to DVD. They are the best quality. There are a few good transfers on the new Genius version and the extras are interesting if you want to spend the money.

Also, I don't think people are being overly negative. The complaints are very basic and warranted. Also, I think this boils down to how dear to most people's hearts these films are. Most of us attach them to our childhood with fond memories of watching them on TV and trying to emulate the fun these kids were having playing outside and creating our own fun.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I was one of the negative posters earlier this week, remarking that the shoddy "research" that went into the liner notes was not petty, but inexcusable. Having said that, I still bought the box, because at this price, the booklet rife with errors and the Blackhawk title cards weren't deal breakers for me.

I'm not sorry I purchased it. The Blackhawk prints I've seen (Shivering Shakespeare and The Kid from Borneo), while having the look of analog video transfers, originate from clean 35mm source material. But other shorts, such as Mush and Milk, look positively spectacular, rivalling the work done by Warner Bros. on films of this period. A Lad and a Lamp appeared to be out of sync on my machine by only a frame or two.

The on-screen extras are lots of fun and a must for Our Gang fans. Jean Darling is a hoot talking about what a spoiled brat she was at the time and Annie Ross is a tough old bird with her "Born in a Trunk" stories involving the likes of Paul Whiteman and her aunt, Ella Logan.

Richard Bann is one of the world's foremost authorities on Hal Roach and the Roach Studios in general. But Mr. Ward's commentaries have long silent gaps and offer little insight into any of the adults working in Wild Poses. Franklin Pangborn worked into the 1950s on television, not just the 1940s and I'm quite sure that Emerson Treacy and Gay Seabrook were never married, although they were a professional team for awhile. It's frustrating listening to commentaries that offer little information and half of which is either incomplete or just plain wrong.

But, bottom line, with all the reservations, I do recommend purchasing the box. The casual fan will be more than pleased and the dedicated fan will want it for the featurettes and the prints which range from spectacular to never less than adequate.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Again I want to encouarge you to check out the colorized Genius versions. They are spectacular prints and look like Warner Bros. work. Even though they were culled from the FAMOUS KIDS prints, they are pristine. And A LAD AND A LAMP is on them and it looks like you are watching High Definition.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I got my Genius box set yesterday, watched a couple, and my initial thoughts (I haven't done any comparisons) is that while the couple I watched looked good, I couldn't discern if the transfers were better or if they'd been DNR'd.

Other than the limited Warner DVD at Sunset (WTH - how could I miss this), I've purchased basically every Little Rascals DVD released. Each one has good stuff on them, and other than some of the shorts themselves, there's unique things on each.

I also got the colorized versions with hesitation, and was pleasantly surprised. They are interesting to watch, but I wouldn't rewatch them with any frequency. The black and white transfers also looked good.

I've been having fun insisting my kids (3,6,9 years of age) watch the Little Rascals. Keep in mind this is a generation who's grown up on Pokemon, Dora, etc. (I say this like I'm an elderly man). They *love* the Little Rascals. My 3 year old just loves the "Kid from Borneo".

I look forward to Allens comparison from Laserdisc - that will influence whether to transfer, leave as-is, or make a hybrid. I may transfer the Cabin Fever laserdiscs anyway because Maltin's intros are unique.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

There is considerable compression artifacting, at least on disk 2, the one I watched. Occasionally the backgrounds would freeze and the moving elements would continue with the weave in the gate. It is extremely distracting and makes it look like bad video compositing. I wish they didn't try to cram so many titles on a single disk. I would have been happy to buy set after set of these in 2 to 4 disk packages, like the Three Stooges sets if they had maintained high quality throughout and took the time to do it right.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

The problem with this set is the EXCESSIVE DVNR. Items in the scene that should move in unison are detached. Don't know how else to explain it. Horrible.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

The separation between moving and static areas isn't DVNR. It's over compression. They crammed too many shorts on each disk. Any time you have grainy source material and over two hours on a dual layer disk, this will happen.

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

I've never seen anything like it on DVD! On A TOUGH WINTER: Farina's face moves separately from his hair!

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Basically, the shorts have a fairly high bitrate (around 9.800 Mbps) and 200 minutes might be pushing things a little, but I wouldn't say they're crammed on the dual-layer discs.. In fact, some of the shorts look pretty good, although they do show some excessive signs of wear.

The problem is that the folks who put this set together, relied far too heavily on some simple digital tools during the "restoration" process. Remember that even the press release touted the use of "DVNR technology" (to paraphrase a little), as a positive boon for this set.

And it does all add up since, of course, not all shorts in the set exhibit the morphing/bounce phenomenon. The ones that do, suffer from excessive gate weave and have had most of the grain and blemishes smoothed out to the extent that they look over-polished and lack sharpness and detail (evidence of DVNR). The result is that the noise reduction can't compensate for the bouncing picture and causes the image to "tear" and bounce. The same effect can be created with cheap ATI video capture software, using the maximum DVNR (what ATI called "video soap") settings.

What the folks at Genius have done is to try to smooth out all the blemishes, scratches and dirt on video masters that already existed prior to this set being created. The existing tapes/transfers have inherent problems that can only be solved with a new, re-telecine of the source material-- preferrably using something along the lines of a wet-gate transfer, followed by some extensive audio and video restoration.

Additionally, two shorts, for sure, exhibit horizontal, analog video dropouts, "Lazy Days" and "Bouncing Babies"-- Further evidence that the shorts are sourced from video masters and not film.

The real problem here, is that there's only so much that can be done with analog video. I haven't even mentioned that the shorts are interlaced, rather than progressive...

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Check out the close-up of Wheezer in "Lazy Days" (9:15). His forehead looks like its floating 2 feet in front of him! Lol!

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Ok,

I got my set today. I've just started going through it and I thought I would try to address some of the issues that have been posted (i've gotten through page two of this thread).

I hooked up two dvd players and my LaserDisc player to my projection tv, and set the PIP to be split screen to do comparisons between the new set and either the Cabin Fever Canadian DVDs (for sets 1-12), or LaserDisc (for sets 13-21)

Bear Shooters – missing dialogue due to broken film. CF missing same dialogue

Washee Ironee – part of the gag with Chinese boy is missing – his first spit and saying ‘washee clothesee’ – it picks up where gang spits. CF DVD has full scene.

The Pinch Singer – other than title, picture is definitely better on NEW set compared to CF DVD.

Kid From Borneo – other than title, picture is definitely better on NEW set compared to CF DVD, although picture is zoomed in slightly – no different than overscanning.

Boxing Gloves – better picture and sound

Free Eats – yes, there are scratches, but these scratches were on the CF LD as well. Because of the increase in picture quality (DVD vs LD/VHS) the scratches are more visible.

On all of these, picture has been improved – less flicker, sharper picture, more detail, also brighter.

As I get through more, I'll post my results. In all cases, the Cabin Fever originals have an inferior picture (to my eyes). If the originals on this new set were 16mm (not verified) then they were really good 16mm prints.

David

Re: Genius Press Release: The Little Rascals: The Complete Collection

Nice work, David - and thanks. Keep 'em coming!

I'm really ticked off that WASHEE IRONEE is the "cut" copy missing the bit with the water spitting and the "Washee Clothesees" gag. Yeah, I've still got it intact from the other source -- but the whole appeal of the Genius set was supposed to be having everything all together in best shape, in one solid chronological collection. Who the heck wants to bounce from one source to another, just to watch every short as complete and in as good shape as possible???

And all these reports about the "floating images"... just really disgusting. I can't stand that. Well, today is the last day of the HALLOWEEN CHALLENGE, which means beginning tomorrow I can finally watch all the Little Rascals shorts in order.... and it's a mixed blessing, I fear.