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"TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread - Page 2

post #31 of 876
9/9/08 at 11:31am

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

I agree with Quentin. I feel the show has a lot of potential but it's not a must see show yet.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles - The Complete Second Season [Blu-ray]
post #32 of 876
9/9/08 at 12:16pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
But, if he's actually stupid enough to have feelings for a Terminator robot (I don't care if she does look like Summer Glau), it totally ruins the show. He is instantly unbelievable as the leader of the humans vs. robots.

I happen to think it's completely believable, as we have, in no canon-worthy version of the Terminator lore, seen John as having an "us vs. them" mentality. In fact, it seemms quite the opposite, in that John befriended, for lack of a better term, one model (in T2), and then a different model in the series. Moreover, the latter model was directly programmed by John in the future, so it seems quite resonable to me that something just "clicks" with him regarding Cameron.

So here we have the leader of the resistence living his entire life either on the run or as a delinquent youth in foster homes, being chased by criminals, law enforcement, and murderous robots from the future. Also, he is forced to rely on said robots to protect him. All of this during the formative years of his life.

I think it's fair to allow the character some latitude, and I think it fits within the larger framework of the lore as I understand (note, I havn't read Terminator comics or anything of the like -- simply seen the movies).
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post #33 of 876
9/9/08 at 12:35pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial
I happen to think it's completely believable, as we have, in no canon-worthy version of the Terminator lore, seen John as having an "us vs. them" mentality. In fact, it seemms quite the opposite, in that John befriended, for lack of a better term, one model (in T2), and then a different model in the series. Moreover, the latter model was directly programmed by John in the future, so it seems quite resonable to me that something just "clicks" with him regarding Cameron.

So here we have the leader of the resistence living his entire life either on the run or as a delinquent youth in foster homes, being chased by criminals, law enforcement, and murderous robots from the future. Also, he is forced to rely on said robots to protect him. All of this during the formative years of his life.

I think it's fair to allow the character some latitude, and I think it fits within the larger framework of the lore as I understand (note, I havn't read Terminator comics or anything of the like -- simply seen the movies).

Sarah (his mom) absolutely has an us vs. them mentality. To the point of obsession. She realizes/understands they can be programmed to help, but never trusts them.

John has been hunted by SkyNet since literally before he was in the womb. He has been saddled with the savior role since he was born and understands that machines will turn on humanity.

Not to mention, I've never lived in any of these worlds and just as a red-blooded male, I'm smart enough to understand that a robot can't love and I would never love a robot! So, why would this guy??
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post #34 of 876
9/9/08 at 12:45pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
Not to mention, I've never lived in any of these worlds and just as a red-blooded male, I'm smart enough to understand that a robot can't love and I would never love a robot! So, why would this guy??

Why can't a robot love exactly?
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post #35 of 876
9/9/08 at 1:08pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

I don't see John as whiny. I contrast it to the prequels and as much as I like them, Anakin being portrayed the way he is here would have probably made them stronger.
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post #36 of 876
9/9/08 at 1:11pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Discussing whether or not a robot can love and has feelings gets us into dangerous waters because, at least personally, I think it comes down to personal beliefes that circles dangerously close to religion talk which of course is a no no here.

I personally believe that robots can never achieve human-level conciousness because they lack a soul. That's my personal beliefe, it doesn't matter how advanced they get and how much they might come close to mimicing us it will never be considered truly alive in my eyes. To me Cameron is no more alive than my toaster or my DVD player, my hot, limber and incredibly sexy DVD player.

And in the words of Forrest Gump..."That's all I have to say about that."

I'm shocked the show is even still on the air considering the trigger-happy network it's on, could it be that FOX is finally starting to see the folly of yanking a show after only 3 or 4 eps?
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post #37 of 876
9/9/08 at 2:04pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
I am in fear that they will continue along this course.

But, if he's actually stupid enough to have feelings for a Terminator robot (I don't care if she does look like Summer Glau), it totally ruins the show.
If you saw the "later this season" preview you would see Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
that he does try to have relations with a human girl on some level at some point
Thinking back to the end of the episode - I don't see her killing the guy as a logical step at all. At the moment this seems to be a plot hole that they just did to do the neat reveal/surprise. Killing your employees is not a good idea if you don't want to draw untoward attention to what they are doing. I'm sure she has some cover up plan, but still it wouldn't seem to be a good idea.

Neil
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post #38 of 876
9/9/08 at 2:19pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

She can be him any time she needs to. Maybe she can make it look like he's impaled through the head by a falling tree limb or something.
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post #39 of 876
9/9/08 at 2:28pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Just FYI, fellas, according to TVGuide.com red isn't a T-1000 but rather a T-1001.

Makes sense considering that the T-1000's default appearance was that of Robert Patrick's.
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post #40 of 876
9/9/08 at 2:38pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
It is stupid things like this that really make it a chore to watch tv shows. People acting completely unrealistic.
This is certainly exacerbated by the comparatively long American TV season.

I wouldn't say that you can't do a good weekly TV series based on Terminators, but this sure ain't it. It quickly goes into Prison Break territory, were week after week, several stupid things have to happen to avoid being massacred by (now) dozens and dozens of unstoppable killing machines.

On a practical note, I don't buy Cameron's combat-chassis-hardened noggin being punctured by that piece of shrapnel in that explosion which basically left the jeep intact. And if so, does she have a crack in her head now? If all her skin heals, can she go swimming?
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post #41 of 876
9/9/08 at 2:46pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Chan
On a practical note, I don't buy Cameron's combat-chassis-hardened noggin being punctured by that piece of shrapnel in that explosion which basically left the jeep intact. And if so, does she have a crack in her head now? If all her skin heals, can she go swimming?

Me either and this is a point I meant to bring up. She has proven more than anything that she is one tough nut to crack and to have a piece of metel penitrate that skull of her's is highly unlikely. And while we're on the subject of her "injuries", it seems that getting hit and pinned between two trucks fixed her limp as well lol.

I wouldn't even want her around now, if she can go berserk like that once who's to say she won't crack up and turn bad again out of nowhere or the next time she get's into a scuffle with a terminator who hits her on the head?

The termie chick is whacked!
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post #42 of 876
9/9/08 at 2:49pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Makes sense considering that the T-1000's default appearance was that of Robert Patrick's.
Terminator canon is problematic because the movies were not entirely consistent, but that's wrong

T-1000 and T-800 are the series. Model 101 looks like Arnold. In T3, he's a T-850, Model 101 (not clear what the series upgrades are). Robert Patrick is some other model. Given that the T-1000 was the one and only advanced prototype, it didn't matter as much. Of course, you can strike the "one and only" part now -- we're making a TV show!
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post #43 of 876
9/9/08 at 3:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
Bad Cameron was actually far more enjoyable than good Cameron but I realize she must return to good mode for the show to continue.
One thing that fascinated me from a purely technical standpoint is the difference in how Cameron is shot in "bad" mode versus "good" mode. The camera is lower to the ground, pointed up, making her look about seven feet tall. When she's in "good" mode the angle varies based on whether she's doing something superhuman but is generally much closer to eye level.
Quote:
John may be the future leader of mankind but taking the risk of reactivating Cameron was a damned stupid move, if he handed Cameron that gun and she terminated him he would have only himself to blame...he's investing his emotions faaaar too much into this machine.
If you believe there is a religious element to John's story despite the scientific reasoning for that story, it makes a lot of sense. John Connor is essentially Moses leading his people free of the robotic Egyptians. In this context, decisions like the one he made to risk his life to save Cameron's being aren't stupid, they're noble. And in very much keeping with the decision making of the younger John Connor in T2, when he forbade Arnie from killing anyone. Since this show already plays up the religious undertones of the story more than the films ever did, it makes a sort of sense to believe that John becomes the savior because he does what is right, instead of what is easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynxFX
Am I the only one that thinks this world ending technology walking around in the form of a chip is made by a company with the worst quality control department? Bang it around a couple times and it 'switches' from good to bad, bad to good. And why is just that part affected? Maybe when it jolted the terminator wants to make paper mache poodles and display them on wicker tables.
What's to say that just that part is affected? It's probable that the specific injuries Cameron suffered damaged that particular override. Had the damage clogged a different part of the chip, it's entirely possible that she would have been still "good" but paralyzed on one side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
I agree 100% regarding Cameron's emotional plea. She was definitely in "mimic mode" at that point. And it was obvious that John understood that as well. I really believe that when he reactivated her and gave her the gun it was with the hope that she would pull the trigger if she was still in "evil mode". I don't think the gun was loaded; and he could have set her on fire at that point which may have given them a fighting chance to escape.
Interesting idea which makes John smart instead of stupid. That way he'd have his cake and eat it too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel_Cooperman
Pretty good episode but nothihng great.
That's pretty much this series in a nutshell. Set your expectations accordingly, and when something great like the birthday speech in the season finale happens it really stands out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd s
Why kill that guy in the bathroom? Just bring unneccesary heat from law enforcement.
My guess is that like Cameron, she is fundamentally different than the earlier terminators. That includes emotions like anger. When she was talking about the difficulty of getting pedestrians to cross against the light, I think she was talking about herself as much as the Turk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial
So here we have the leader of the resistence living his entire life either on the run or as a delinquent youth in foster homes, being chased by criminals, law enforcement, and murderous robots from the future. Also, he is forced to rely on said robots to protect him. All of this during the formative years of his life.

I think it's fair to allow the character some latitude, and I think it fits within the larger framework of the lore as I understand (note, I havn't read Terminator comics or anything of the like -- simply seen the movies).
Exactly. In a way, the terminators reprogrammed by his future self have been as much guardians as his mother for vast stretches of his life. He'd naturally have more empathy than people like Sarah and Derek whose lives have been spent running from or fighting the terminators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I personally believe that robots can never achieve human-level conciousness because they lack a soul. That's my personal beliefe, it doesn't matter how advanced they get and how much they might come close to mimicing us it will never be considered truly alive in my eyes. To me Cameron is no more alive than my toaster or my DVD player, my hot, limber and incredibly sexy DVD player.
That's fine for the "real world", but why must that apply to the invented rules of this universe? Perhaps it was reaching that point of "human" conciousness, that self-awareness that we call a soul, that caused Skynet to destroy the world.
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post #44 of 876
9/9/08 at 4:06pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

I thought the T-1000 reveal was a bit soon. They should have strung that out for a couple weeks at least. But this is typical of the dumbed-down and desperate writing we have now...hurry up and hook 'em.

After all it is Fox...
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post #45 of 876
9/9/08 at 4:18pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

It doesn't go that deeply for me, Adam. Skynet destroyed the world because it was a thoughtless machine bent on it's own self preservation and decided to wipe us out, in the words of Kyle, "in a micro second".

At least a psychotic human KNOWS, somewhere in his mind, that it's wrong to kill someone but does it anyway, the distinction between that and Skynet is that it never understood from the get go what was right and wrong, it expended no thought at all to wiping us out.

In short, it had no conscience whatsoever.

I'm trying to see it from your perspective but it's hard to leave behind the baggage of how I feel about machines in my real life and the way they're depicted on the show, it's very hard for me to separate them in my head.

In short, for our argument, you think more like John and I tend to think more like Sarah.

As for John reactivating Cameron, he has to be smarter than that, he had no idea that Cameron would be okay again when he revived her, even if the gun wasn't loaded she could have gotten hold of him and broke his neck before Sarah and the others had a chance to react.

I can understand all the subtext your talking about with regards to John but again it didn't go that deeply for me, you saw John doing something noble that speaks to how he will conduct himself as a leader with empathy as where I saw John do something incredibly reckless that could have resulted in his death thereby destroying all that Kyle, Sarah and the future resistance had been fighting for. Heck, even Cameron herself (I am aware of the oxymoron of constantly calling it "her" even though I know that it isn't human, so that isn't lost on me) stated to Sarah to not allow John to ever do that again.

Dang it, Adam, now you got me goin' and talkin' like I care about this show!
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post #46 of 876
9/9/08 at 4:35pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

The matter of "machines and feelings" is older than the hills, and has been a staple of Science Fiction since... well... gee. It's seminal to the genre. See BSG for as thorough and in depth an exploration of the subject as you're ever gonna see on TV. So I don't see the need for the grave warnings about religion. The BSG thread was just fine.

I generally agree with you John, about Cameron == toaster. But the beauty of a masterpiece like BSG is that it challenges your assumption and maybe belief sets. It helps that the machine in that show are behaviorally and anatomically indistinguishable from humans, right down to their reproductive functions (and the females toasters vary from serviceable to jaw-droppingly hot! )

--
H
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post #47 of 876
9/9/08 at 4:41pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Well, you know how things can get here, Holadem, one person says one thing and suddenly it turns into this big thing where moderators get involved.

I only said what I said earlier because that's what it comes down to for me I guess. I believe that we have a soul, an esscense that goes somewhere when we die, something that machines do not possess, we're alive as to where machines can only mimic being alive.

Others milege may vary but that's just where I stand on the matter.
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post #48 of 876
9/9/08 at 7:38pm
Thread Starter 

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
It doesn't go that deeply for me, Adam. Skynet destroyed the world because it was a thoughtless machine bent on it's own self preservation and decided to wipe us out, in the words of Kyle, "in a micro second".

At least a psychotic human KNOWS, somewhere in his mind, that it's wrong to kill someone but does it anyway, the distinction between that and Skynet is that it never understood from the get go what was right and wrong, it expended no thought at all to wiping us out.
That's not how I interpreted at all. My understanding is even darker. Skynet came "alive" on Judgement Day with the greatest mind in the universe. It gave the matter of destroying us very careful consideration, which for it took only minutes or even seconds, and coldly and calmly decided to wipe us out anyway. In that fashion it was an outwardly malicious act.
Quote:
I'm trying to see it from your perspective but it's hard to leave behind the baggage of how I feel about machines in my real life and the way they're depicted on the show, it's very hard for me to separate them in my head.
I think you're right as of NOW for the terminator drones. However, I think the T-1001 and eventually Cameron will move beyond that status quo.
Quote:
In short, for our argument, you think more like John and I tend to think more like Sarah.
That's actually a fairly adept summation.
Quote:
you saw John doing something noble that speaks to how he will conduct himself as a leader with empathy as where I saw John do something incredibly reckless that could have resulted in his death thereby destroying all that Kyle, Sarah and the future resistance had been fighting for. Heck, even Cameron herself (I am aware of the oxymoron of constantly calling it "her" even though I know that it isn't human, so that isn't lost on me) stated to Sarah to not allow John to ever do that again.

Dang it, Adam, now you got me goin' and talkin' like I care about this show!
Good! It's not just the qualities as a leader. Assume that there is a God in this universe and Skynet is his mechanism for a biblical act of judgment, punishment for humanity's excesses. It would explain why all efforts by both sides to preempt the future war fail time and time again; God wills the war to happen. In this scenario, John Connor is essentially Noah, an instrument of God's will to preserve the purest and best of humanity to rebuilt the world. Within this framework, John's reckless actions are in fact acts of faith and awarded accordingly.
Mind you, this isn't what I think is going on. Or even necessarily an intended perspective for what's going on. But considering the religious overtones of the show -- the religious FBI agent is spared, the T-1001 speaks of Babylon, etc. etc. -- it's one possible explanation for what's going on. That being said, my favorite religious bent is when the religious predestination angle is married to scientific, logical explanations.
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post #49 of 876
9/9/08 at 8:08pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Wow, I was planning on popping in here with a few quick thoughts on the season two opener and find that there is quite a debate going on. I'll have to come back later for that as I need to get to bed...

I thought the opener was "eh." I just re-watched season one on Blu-ray and really enjoyed it the second time around. I even got my wife into she didn't want to watch it season on tv). We were both really looking forward to it and I was underwhelmed. From the season preview, it looks like it will pick up.
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post #50 of 876
9/9/08 at 8:24pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Chan
Terminator canon is problematic because the movies were not entirely consistent, but that's wrong

T-1000 and T-800 are the series. Model 101 looks like Arnold. In T3, he's a T-850, Model 101 (not clear what the series upgrades are). Robert Patrick is some other model. Given that the T-1000 was the one and only advanced prototype, it didn't matter as much. Of course, you can strike the "one and only" part now -- we're making a TV show!

Actually the default appearance of the T-1000 is not Robert Patrick, it's a metal blob. It only took Robert Patrick's shape because that is the very first human it came across in the movie. Remember there actually was a good human cop Robert Patrick that got killed investigating an "Electrical Disturbance".
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post #51 of 876
9/9/08 at 9:46pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Actually the default appearance of the T-1000 is not Robert Patrick, it's a metal blob. It only took Robert Patrick's shape because that is the very first human it came across in the movie. Remember there actually was a good human cop Robert Patrick that got killed investigating an "Electrical Disturbance".
That's not the case either because Patrick didn't play the cop that got killed and the T-1000 had the Patrick appearance before it made physical contact with him.

If the we follow the logic presented in T3, then the T-1000 form was probably based on some human figure involved with the military.
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post #52 of 876
9/9/08 at 9:52pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Yeah, T-1000 appears as naked Robert Patrick when he arrives in the time bubble, and he always reverts back to that specific appearance.
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post #53 of 876
9/9/08 at 10:11pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Ah, my bad. I remembered that scene differently.
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post #54 of 876
9/9/08 at 10:21pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Also, don't forget that the beginning of T2 is setup to be like T1: a Terminator is sent to kill John, and a lone protector was sent to save him. It's not until the shooting starts that we are supposed to be pleasantly surprised by the twist, that Arnold is actually the good guy. Unfortunately, all the advance publicity gave that away So the cop could not have been played by Robert Patrick; and he wasn't.
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post #55 of 876
9/9/08 at 10:26pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
Sarah (his mom) absolutely has an us vs. them mentality.

Indeed, but weren't you referencing John?

I think it would almost be unbelievable for him to NOT, at the very least, befriend Cameron (and the "love" he may or not feel for her need not be sexual). It's a creation programmed by him, for him. One would hope Cameron would be able to interact and "reach" John on a level even Arnold's model couldn't, otherwise, what was the point of sending back that specific model? I'm sure there were more advanced captured and repgrammed models available to be sent back.

Once again, it seems to me completely in-line with the series and its characters, to have John feel for Cameron, and Sarah to hate them all.
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post #56 of 876
9/9/08 at 10:50pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Adam, I guess the bottom line is that it, like anything else, all comes down to interperatation and point of view of the viewer.

And again, you John, me Sarah, you want to befriend them and I just wanna' blow em' up.

BTW, did it seem like Summer put some weight on this season? I thought she was too skinny and frail looking in season one but she looked more filled out in the premiere, I actually bought her as a Terminator more this time which is good.
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post #57 of 876
9/9/08 at 11:01pm

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
BTW, did it seem like Summer put some weight on this season? I thought she was too skinny and frail looking in season one but she looked more filled out in the premiere, I actually bought her as a Terminator more this time which is good.
I thought most of that was the prosthetics filling out her face, but in the last year I haven't been able to help but notice she's started looking more womanly than her days on Firefly. Which is a plus.
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post #58 of 876
9/10/08 at 9:09am

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

You know a completely different way to end the show would be this. Instead of either they stop the machines from taking over or not. How about a situation where the machines still are created. But, because of some reason. They are non-hostile to humans. The old "Why can't we get along" scenario. And John and Cameron can be a part of why.
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post #59 of 876
9/10/08 at 10:12am

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

I have a question.
I started watching the show last year but gave up after the 90210 meets the Fugitive stuff started happening every week.
Does the Summer Glau character heal herself or will she look more battered as each show goes on?
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post #60 of 876
9/10/08 at 10:33am

Re: "TERMINATOR: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" Season 2 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem
The matter of "machines and feelings" is older than the hills, and has been a staple of Science Fiction since... well... gee. It's seminal to the genre. See BSG for as thorough and in depth an exploration of the subject as you're ever gonna see on TV. So I don't see the need for the grave warnings about religion. The BSG thread was just fine.

I generally agree with you John, about Cameron == toaster. But the beauty of a masterpiece like BSG is that it challenges your assumption and maybe belief sets. It helps that the machine in that show are behaviorally and anatomically indistinguishable from humans, right down to their reproductive functions (and the females toasters vary from serviceable to jaw-droppingly hot! )
H

Ah yes, but THAT IS THE CORE THEME OF THAT SHOW. Are they toasters vs. are they human and the question of what sentient life is. The 12 are also fully biological. So, while they have been called toasters, it is a misnomer. No metal there. They bleed, they die, they give birth, etc. The line is purposefully blurred in order to explore the theme.

The theme of Terminator has never been (and IMO never should) about the cybernetic 'what is life' question. It's first and foremost about fighting a future war in the past and secondarily about how choices today affect our future.

The John Connor of that universe is not stupid enough to fall in love with a robot. And, in fact, she should not even have fully functional biological 'parts'. Her breasts should be armored and her parts should look like a Barbie. Terminators of this type are metal exoskeleton covered by flesh. We even saw a Terminator in this show cover himself in goo that turned into flesh. That does not make for functioning organs.
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