The Shield: Season Seven - Page 7

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

But what you describe here doesn't sound very loyal to me.

I might have worded that poorly. I don't think Vic has any ill will toward Ronnie, and he didn't necessarily WANT to throw him under the bus, but he was more than happy to do it and was relieved when a legitimate opportunity came about. Bottom line is though, even if the Corrine thing didn't happen, he would have figured out a way to get himself out of it whether it meant stabbing Ronnie in the back or not.

Of course we're talking about a fictional TV character so there's no right answer...just the way I've analyzed Vic from day one. He's a true sociopath in every sense of the word.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I disagree. Believe it or not, sociopaths are worse (although most of them lead relatively harmless and unremarkable existences.)

Sociopaths are utterly devoid of empathy and remorse. To me, these people are not human.

Vic is an irredeemable monster (it's somewhat depressing that some viewers are only now waking up to this fact; the series began with -- gee -- the cold blooded murder of a police detective fer crissakes! ); but a sociopath he isn't.

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H

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I found this as a "profile of a sociopath" online. Let's see how Vic measures up...

Common behaviors of sociopaths:

# Glibness and Superficial Charm - CHECK
# Manipulative and Conning - CHECK
# Grandiose Sense of Self - CHECK
# Pathological Lying - CHECK
# Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt - I think he has shown some remorse with certain things. The question is whether it was real or not.
# Shallow Emotions - Probably doesn't fit him, as he has seemed genuinely upset over certain things that should upset a normal human being.
# Incapacity for Love - He'll say he loves his family. I'd say it's debatable.
# Need for Stimulation - CHECK
# Callousness/Lack of Empathy - CHECK
# Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature - CHECK
# Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency - Unknown. I don't recall any reference being made to Vic's childhood ever.
# Irresponsibility/Unreliability - CHECK
# Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity - CHECK
# Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle - Probably not, unless you consider "staying out of prison" or "staying alive" an unrealistic life plan.
# Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility - CHECK

So 10 out of 15 definites, with 3-4 more debatable. You be the judge. Any psychiatrists on the board?

Interesting discussion either way.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Yes, he lies, but only when he has to, in order to cover his crimes. Pathological? Not IMHO.


What the hell does that mean anyway? That he'd go stir crazy with nothing to do? That surely applies to most people.


He's shown empathy for victims in the show. I remember a recent episode where he gets duped for showing such empathy.


Vic flies by the seat of his pants when the situation requires (when he's in the shit). I wouldn't say that makes him impulsive.


When was the last time Vic got laid? I can't even remember. Promiscuous? No.


I think you're taking a lot of isolated (or rare) incidents and making them regular character traits to prove your point. Has Vic shown sociopathic behaviour on the show? Yeah, I'd say so, with the murder of the cop in episode one. However, I wouldn't label him "a true sociopath in every sense of the word." He still has a code, he still wants to protect the public, his friends, and his family, the major flaw being that he has convinced himself that "his way" is the best and only way to do it. Would a sociopath distinguish between criminals and civilians?

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

These are the deal-breakers.

I suppose it comes down to whether you believe those emotions to be genuine. I do, because I was never given any reason to think otherwise.

A sociopath would be incapable of those feelings, but would fake them when necessary (because well, that's what society seems to require, even though they don't get it.)

Vic's affection/love for various characters is not faked. That alone disqualifies him from being a sociopath, regardless of anything else he might have done. Unlike sociopaths, he has a conscience. That it's not much of a hindrance does not negate its obvious existence.

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H

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Sociopaths don't rationalize their evil acts (to themselves) because they don't need to. They don't recognize them as being evil acts. It is clear that Vic feels actual guilt and remorse for some of his actions, since we've seen this in scenes where he is alone. Don't forget, as recently as the founding of the strike team Vic was a fairly conventional cop, a little seedy around the edges, but still more honest than Gilroy. A truly sociopathic personality is fully formed long before Vic's age. He didn't suddenly become a sociopath between the time when he was arguing with Gilroy about where to draw the line and the moment when he killed Terry Crowley.

Mackey had started down a crooked path the first time he and his team stole cash from a drug dealer (something I suspect a lot of cops could almost rationalize.) He made things worse when they jumped to stealing and selling the drugs themselves. But he could still tell himself that he was a good cop, that his crimes were minor, didn't really make things any worse than they were already and that he and his guys "deserved" the money for the risks they took.

But when Terry Crowley threatened to expose their lucrative little empire, Vic went a step further and stepped over a line from which he could never return. The fact is he and the team could probably have simply stopped what they were doing, and maybe killed a couple of drug dealers who knew to much. ("Public service homicides" as such things are sometimes called.) There would have been nothing for Terry as the undercover guy to bust them on. Nothing incriminating on any wire he wore. Aceveda would have still had his suspicions, but there would have been no proof. But Vic made a concious decision to protect their crooked enterprise by committing an even greater crime. As is so often the case, it was the cover-up, not the original crime, that became the real problem. Vic - without even consulting the others - murdered Terry in cold blood and made them all accessories to his act. (And hid the fact from everyone but Shane - guilt flag number one.) From that time on Vic was damned. (But not until that moment. He could have pulled back.) And on some level, he knew it. Which is why he isn't a sociopath.

He could try to convince others (and himself) that Terry's murder was necessary, that it protected the team, their families and all the rest. But it has seemed clear (at least to me) from the beginning that the murder has haunted Vic as well as some of the other members of the team. Sociopaths don't suffer from a bad conscience. Vic does. It showed in both his empathizing when Shane expressed remorse for the killing of Terry and in his defensive insistance that the event never be mentioned again. A true sociopath simply wouldn't have cared.

Vic has spent 7 years hiding the reality of his own actions from himself as much as from anyone else. That's why the confession scene was so powerful. He was confessing to himself as much as to Olivia. He was forcing himself to say out loud things he hadn't allowed himself to whisper even in his own private thoughts. That's why he had such a hard time getting started.

Vic is an evil man who has done horrible things. But he's also a tragic figure almost in the way MacBeth is. He is a man of great gifts who started out as a nobel figure, and who was tempted into thinking that he could take a shortcut to money and power without being corrupted by doing so. MacBeth wasn't a sociopath, either. And that's the worst of it.

Regards,

Joe

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Excellent post Joe!

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H

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I would be shocked if the kid kills Dutch, I think Dutch gets him before his killing career gets going. That is what Dutch has wanted IMO, to get the guys before they really start to do damage. He has always known/learned how seriel killers work and now his experience will help him catch one.

I think Aceveda will become mayor.

Ronnie will go down one way or the other.

Shane and Mara go to jail.

Vic gets off but loses everything, and is crushed when he learns Corin set him up.

Great show.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I can't even begin to say how much I'm going to miss The Shield after tonight. Of all the great TV shows I've watched over the past decade or so(The Sopranos included), I have to say that it has been the best. While I can't wait to see how it all wraps up I'm also very sad that this great ride is coming to an end.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

While I'm sure there will be some degree of sadness after it's all over, I'm actually relieved it's finally coming to an end. Up until these last few episodes, I felt like the show had run it's course and wasn't really crazy about last season and the first half of this season. Part of me thinks the show would have been more satisfying overall if they had ended it last season like originally planned.

But I didn't have as lengthy a commitment to the show either, as I started by watching the first 4 seasons on DVD in a few months time, and then caught on real time with season 5.

Here's a good interview with Shawn Ryan...

Shawn Ryan | The A.V. Club

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Hard to resist the fun of prediction, while we still have a few hours left to do it in:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Joe

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Totally disagree. I feel both seasons 6 and 7 have been as strong as any in the show's history. In fact, The Shield has never really suffered a "down" season which can't be said about too many dramatic shows. Cheers to the writers, cast and crew for maintaining a high level of quality throughout the series' entire run.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I agree season 7 has been great. Part of the reason for that is definitely that you don't know what to expect. There are no limits, which is saying a lot given what we've seen in seasons past. Anyone can die, even Vic. But I would also agree that this show has been good from beginning to end.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Well one way or another, Vic landed in hell

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Absolutely!

I'm sorry to see this show end...by far my favorite TV show ever.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

hmm, I'm not sure the ending does it for me.
I guess I really wanted more or something else.

I loved the irony of it but it wasn't much different then the way Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I thought it was a fitting end for Vic also. Stuck behind a desk alone...........

Sad scene with Shane. Saw it coming but it was still sad, especially how who took with him...

I am really going to miss this show. This is by far one of my favorite shows of all time.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Temporarily. While he had the look of "I have nothing" for a moment, it morphed into the look of classic Vic... how to create something from nothing. Give him time.

It was a pretty sad moment when Ronnie got the lay of the land. Calling Vic in to rub his face in it was raw. Hopefully we saw enough in this episode to kill the sociopath classification (as opposed to that kid).

It was a pretty sad moment when Shane finally sat down, looked in every direction, and realized he was in a corner with no way forward. His actions didn't surprise me.

Say Hello to Dutch, the next Captain of the Barn -- if he can stay out of jail.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I think the ending works better if Shane doesn't let Vic know about Corinne ratting out Vic, then all the events play better, and Vic really does get blindsided by Claudette taking down Ronnie in the barn in front of Vic.

Overall, I'm a little underwhelmed by the finale, but accept that Vic is in his own little personal hell, but he's down, but not out.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

A part of me thinks we wouldn't be completely satisfied with the finale unless they did a Six Feet Under style future reel showing the future fates of some of the important characters. As it is, the show is gone, but I still want to see what goes on with these characters. How does Vic cope? What happens in 3 years when his current ICE contract is done? Does he ever see his family again? If he stays in law enforcement, does he stay crooked? Does Dutch get off? Does Dutch become captain?

BTW, it sucks that Ronnie is the only one paying for the actions of the Strike Team in the legal system. It'd be interesting to see if he could find something important Vic didn't confess to, thus invalidating Vic's immunity, in exchange for a lighter sentence.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

To say this was an emotionally draining finale episode is an
understatement.

Most shocking moment of the night:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Most emotional moment of the night:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

The funniest line of the evening:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

My thoughts on the ending:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Was I satisfied with the finale? Absolutely. It pulled every emotional
string in my body and though it still left a few loose ends, I was more
than satisfied with the manner in which the show closed.

I echo the thoughts that this is one of the greatest TV shows of all
time. It's very difficult to do 7 seasons of perfect, riveting storytelling
and that is exactly what The Shield managed to do.

It has been a pleasure to discuss this show with all of you over the
past few years.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Also, think of all the convictions that would be overturned if Ronnie lets out what he knows into the public, that's a big card for Ronnie to play should the city PD and soon-to-be Mayor Acevada try to bend him over really badly.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

Good, but not great, finale IMHO. I am perfectly happy where the Vic storyline wrapped up, and I think the ending they picked for his character makes the most sense without having to resort to the more typical options of death or jail. Both Shane and Ronnie's fates seemed pretty inevitable as well (and followed "logically" from what came before, as I said in a previous post) and someone needs to give Goggins or the show an Emmy nomination at the very least.

My issues lie with the B/C storylines. The serial killer kid plot wrapped up decently, but I think maybe one more scene to flesh it out a bit more or clarify that they had solid evidence against the kid would have been nice. The mayoral thread was just okay; it seemed fairly perfunctory, and only would have been justified if they revealed that Acaveda had in fact set him up (which seems unlikely, but I suppose it might show the lengths to which Aceveda will go to win the election). And why was Danny's kid never brought up after all that drama earlier in the season?

Oh and even though I thought the end-credits montage was fine, I think back to earlier season enders with pre-credits montages and I think that might have been the way to go. Everyone but Vic, and then just let him have that near perfect final scene.

Ah well, still a strong ending to a fantastic series.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

For the most part I agree with Brian. Good, but not great. As a Mackey hater, I was satisfied with his fate, but I did think they dwelled a little bit too much on the whole office thing. Almost seemed Office Space-ish to me. I was looking for a red slimline stapler on the desk and for Lumbergh to show up. All they needed to do was show the cubicle once (and maybe Vic in the suit) and that was enough...we got the point.

I think it's pretty safe to say Vic would either be on the run or in prison within a week.

Ronnie & Shane's fates were done very well. I was shocked that Shane took his family with him.

A little disappointed in the way Dutch was closed out. I feel like we didn't really gain much insight into his character since the infamous "cat" scene from several seasons ago. And the serial killer bit felt rushed at the end. I can't help but think they would have been better off just bagging that story for the finale and using more of that screen time on the Vic/Shane/Ronnie story.

So did Ronnie really screw himself by yelling at Vic the way he did when they hauled him off? Couldn't he have just denied being involved with any of that stuff and just build a case that Vic was lying? I don't think Vic had any evidence of any of the stuff they did.

I'm definitely not as high on the series as a whole as a lot of you on here seem to be (I think 'The Wire' coinciding with most of it's run took a little bit away from it for me), but overall this was a top notch show that far too many people missed out on. Hopefully the DVDs can still gain some audience for this memorable show.

I think I was the only one in this thread that classified Vic that way, and I'd say if anything this finale confirmed my belief that he is. However, I think some of the compelling arguments by you guys against that belief on this thread have opened me to the possibility that he's merely "borderline" sociopath.

Re: The Shield: Season Seven

I wrote the following yesterday before I saw the ep, I thought I posted it but here it is still in Notepad:
Glad it worked out that way
Absolutely. 3 years is a long time for such a cunning mind. At the same time, 3 years is nothing for someone of Vic's age. He will figure something out. Find something to leverage. That's the depressing part. He kows things about Olivia. And Aceveda. If one can legally get away with what Vic has done, anything is possible.

But I am satisfied with this resolution.

Not sure what the deal is with the other candidate though. If they were implying that Aceveda had something to do with it, they didn't give us enough to make it plausible. And it's completely out of character (the rapist was another story altogether.)

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H