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The Last Emperor on Blu-ray - Page 3

post #61 of 117
8/19/08 at 7:44am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Playing devil's advocate: to be fair to Mr. Storaro, I think what he was initially aiming for was a great idea: an aspect ratio that would effectively sit at a midpoint between 1.66:1 and 2.35:1 (I say 1.66:1 because Mr. Storaro is more familiar with European TV standards, which have a wider AR than NTSC). His early papers suggest the Univisium format as being universal for film and future television standards @ the time, which may not have been a bad idea, except for all the black bar haters who would have had to deal with black bars pretty much all the time; if not top and bottom, then on the sides. That being said, we still experience that issue at 1.78:1.

As well, consider this: how many cinemas are there out there that don't crop 2.35/2.39:1 at the sides? And yes, I have seen it as bad as 2.0:1.
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post #62 of 117
8/19/08 at 8:18am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
As well, consider this: how many cinemas are there out there that don't crop 2.35/2.39:1 at the sides? And yes, I have seen it as bad as 2.0:1.

I wasn´t aware, that cinemas "crop" 2.35:1/2.40:1 from the sides? I guess it could happen, I don´t know...

In any case, I don´t see the connection with this and the Blu-ray/DVD-version of "The Last Emperor". If some cinemas "crop" movies, DVD/BD-version should too? Or - it really doesn´t matter (cropping), if "cinemas" are already doing that? I fail to see the point..

Btw. There are some DVD-releases, that have 1.78.1/1.85:1 "open matte"-version of 2.35:1-film, shot in "Super 35" (from the top of my head, at least some versions of "Gosford Park"). Same thing with many 1.85:1-films from the 1980s (4:3 "open matte"-version released on DVD). With these, I also prefer "theatrical aspect ratio", even when these "open matte"-versions actually have additional information...

My point is, that give me the OAR (=theatrical*). Rest are just alternate versions.

*..with some exceptions, of course..
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post #63 of 117
8/19/08 at 7:25pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Very true and since the filmmakers signed off on it, I'll probably buy it.

Would we say the same of Lucas told us that his Blu-ray versions of the Star Wars saga were going to be cropped down to 2.0:1?

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post #64 of 117
8/19/08 at 7:35pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Vittorio Storaro ruined my childhood!
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post #65 of 117
8/20/08 at 8:34am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Would we say the same of Lucas told us that his Blu-ray versions of the Star Wars saga were going to be cropped down to 2.0:1?

If that were to be the only alteration affecting the Blu-ray release of the Star Wars trilogy, I would be ecstatic.
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post #66 of 117
8/20/08 at 9:06am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I guess prefacing my comments with "playing devil's advocate" had no effect.

In any event, the last comment was designed to defuse those who say "I want to see it exactly how I saw it in the theatre." You mean, cropped on the sides, with print damage, blown speakers, visible splice marks and missing frames? Faded colour?

There comes a time when we have to assess for ourselves what the actual damage is to a film when presented in a modified aspect ratio rather than what the aperture would normally dictate. James Cameron and others were shooting in Super 35 at the same time to minimise the negative effects of their films being released on video in a 1.33:1 format; why is it so hard to believe that Storaro was shooting for 2.0:1 to protect and possibly change the world of home presentation?

Just because the frame is cropped does not mean that we're being deprived of essential information. Open matte transfers taught us that a long time ago.
Again, playing devil's advocate and encouraging others to consider a different viewpoint.
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post #67 of 117
8/20/08 at 9:43am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
why is it so hard to believe that Storaro was shooting for 2.0:1 to protect and possibly change the world of home presentation?

Because in the 2:1 version, different scenes are cropped differently with respect to the full 2.35:1 version. Some scenes use the center of the frame, cropping the left and right sides equally. Other scenes use one side or the other, cropping the opposite side. If Storaro was really framing the film for 2:1 while protecting the full 2.35:1 frame, wouldn't the cropping be consistent throughout the film?

And even if you believe that Storaro was composing for 2:1 while using different parts of the frame for some reason, consider that many scenes are cropped differently in the "television" version than they are in the theatrical version, both of which are presented on Criterion's DVD release. So which of these versions represents the "correct" 2:1 framing?
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post #68 of 117
8/20/08 at 11:18am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

"why is it so hard to believe that Storaro was shooting for 2.0:1 to protect and possibly change the world of home presentation?"

I would guess you don't own the 2.35:1 Pal version where People aren't
either cut in Half or missing from some shots.Like I said the Apocayple Now
redux print I saw in the Theatre was around 2.35:1 ,not 2.1 like the video
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post #69 of 117
8/20/08 at 3:00pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Because in the 2:1 version, different scenes are cropped differently with respect to the full 2.35:1 version. Some scenes use the center of the frame, cropping the left and right sides equally. Other scenes use one side or the other, cropping the opposite side. If Storaro was really framing the film for 2:1 while protecting the full 2.35:1 frame, wouldn't the cropping be consistent throughout the film?

And even if you believe that Storaro was composing for 2:1 while using different parts of the frame for some reason, consider that many scenes are cropped differently in the "television" version than they are in the theatrical version, both of which are presented on Criterion's DVD release. So which of these versions represents the "correct" 2:1 framing?

Not unless he always intended to slide the 2.0 image across the 2.35 to get a more pleasing final TV version.

If you watch the documentary on T2 comparing the letterboxed with the full screen versions, you'll see that even the letterboxed version doesn't just stay in the center of the image all the time. Sometimes they are panning and zooming with in the full image area of the super 35 frame.

The answer to the last question would be the version that Storaro supervised.

Doug
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post #70 of 117
8/20/08 at 3:02pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Neski
"why is it so hard to believe that Storaro was shooting for 2.0:1 to protect and possibly change the world of home presentation?"

I would guess you don't own the 2.35:1 Pal version where People aren't
either cut in Half or missing from some shots.Like I said the Apocayple Now
redux print I saw in the Theatre was around 2.35:1 ,not 2.1 like the video

The only thing I've seen where people are half cut off are the litter bearers who are walking toward the camera and probably moving in and out of the frame as they go. I haven't seen anything where someone who is actually important to the shot is cut off in such a way.

Doug
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post #71 of 117
8/20/08 at 5:44pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I don't think he said that he shot TLE for 2.0, but rather with 2.0 in mind. I assume he means that they were protecting for 2.0, much as some TV shows shot 1.33 but protected for 1.85 for theatrical reasons.

Doug

Actually, as far as I could tell (from the screen caps and my own nasty old R1 DVD), he probably did *not* do that. There seems to be a fair bit of panning and scanning going on w/ the new MAR-ed version, which suggests that it's mostly (if not completely all) revisionism on his part.

If you might recall, I pointed this out in my comparisons in the old SD thread -- don't remember the post # now.

_Man_
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post #72 of 117
8/20/08 at 6:01pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Actually, as far as I could tell (from the screen caps and my own nasty old R1 DVD), he probably did *not* do that. There seems to be a fair bit of panning and scanning going on w/ the new MAR-ed version, which suggests that it's mostly (if not completely all) revisionism on his part.

If you might recall, I pointed this out in my comparisons in the old SD thread -- don't remember the post # now.

_Man_

Could very well be.
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post #73 of 117
8/20/08 at 6:08pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Not unless he always intended to slide the 2.0 image across the 2.35 to get a more pleasing final TV version.

If you watch the documentary on T2 comparing the letterboxed with the full screen versions, you'll see that even the letterboxed version doesn't just stay in the center of the image all the time. Sometimes they are panning and zooming with in the full image area of the super 35 frame.

The answer to the last question would be the version that Storaro supervised.

Doug

In that case, I think the better question is whether T2 was actually shot to be presented that way theatrically or is that (re)framing only a matter for the letterboxed home video version viewed on SD TVs (most of which were much smaller than what's common today).

Let's not lose sight of why we even want OAR here. It's not about what one or two filmmakers think looks best on a smallish SD TV, but about getting as close to the originally intended theatrical experience as possible. As many have said so far, if they must provide a MAR-ed version to cater to the masses because they think people are still sticking w/ smallish SD TVs, then give us 2 versions and not force us to go "MAR or nothing at all". That this is happening through Criterion and apparently Criterion's parent(?) company also now owns all the home video rights to the film just make the matter that much worse. I probably can't even hope that some 3rd party will strike a new OAR transfer (and try to just match the PQ to the Criterion/Storaro reference w/out Storaro's involvement) and release it for those of us who care.

_Man_
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post #74 of 117
8/20/08 at 7:50pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Had he really wanted 2:1 framing, why weren't the theatrical prints made with that aspect ratio? It could have been acheived by side-masking in a standard 2.35:1 projection system (hard-matted on the print itself... like Blair Witch was matted to 1.33:1 on standard 1.85:1 prints).

If it made sense to "open it up" to the full 2.35:1 width for wide-angle theater viewing, then my front-projection screen should be treated in the same manner.

Hearing him talk about his preference for 2:1, "small television screens" always seems to come into the conversation. I don't think that many film-artists fully grasp that "home video" in the brave new world of large-screen 1080p isn't bound by the same limitations of what they remember from their days of collecting laserdiscs and VHS.
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post #75 of 117
8/20/08 at 8:33pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

The reason 2:1 prints weren't made for theatres is simple: too much for the lab to screw up. When you're centering a 1.33:1 image in a 1.85:1 frame, whether or not it's perfectly centred is a moot point. Part of the reason that Superscope (the godfather of Super 35) switched from 2:1 to 2.35:1 was that the image was off-centre in theatres set up for CinemaScope and this is much more noticeable with small side bars than wide ones, as counterintuitive as that may sound. Granted, they could have put narrow bars on both sides, but that's putting a lot of power in the labs' hands.

I appreciate your comments about large screen 1080p, David, but you need to remember that setups like yours are the exception rather than the rule.
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post #76 of 117
8/20/08 at 8:40pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Already the proliferation of large-screen direct-view 1080p sets has overtaken the world of conventional 27" NTSC sets that dominated just five years earlier.

In another five years, it won't be uncommon to see 50+ screen sizes as "normal". Just five years ago, at AVS they laughed at folks like me who suggested that "one day we'll have 1080p HDTVs". And now you see 1080p HDTVs on sale at Costco. My next prophesy will come true as well: Once LED light source hits in the next couple of years, projection costs will come down and quality will go up... with lamps that never need replacing. Front projection for the masses will be a reality in less than a decade. Don't let your 1080p software get "dumbed down" for small screens... your 1080p collection will last a whole lot longer than your current TV.

Quote:
I appreciate your comments about large screen 1080p, David, but you need to remember that setups like yours are the exception rather than the rule.

The same was true for 16x9 TVs in the late 1990's. But in hindsight that fact wasn't the best rationale for the studios to hold back anamorphic encoding for fear of "downconversion artifacts" or to avoid the costs for new 16x9 transfers. Yet even on forums like this, most folks couldn't see past their 4x3 interlaced TV even as late as 1999. Funny how those same folks are all 16x9 equipped today. Let's not make the same mistake and assume we won't be enjoying large-screen 1080p in another few short years.
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post #77 of 117
8/20/08 at 9:08pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Just out of curiosity, were people around here just as upset when David Fincher reframed SEVEN shot-by-shot for the second DVD release? Sure, the shape of the frame is still 2.35:1, but he had it reframed up and down throughout (SEVEN being a Super-35 film, this wasn't at all hard to do), sometimes actually adding digital tilts during shots. Did this alteration of the theatrical framing cause any sort of an uproar around here akin to some of the venom that's been thrown Storaro's way? Should a future HD media versions of SEVEN feature the same reframing, will they incur any uproar? Or is it only wrong when Vittorio Storaro does it?

Vincent
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post #78 of 117
8/20/08 at 9:14pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I suppose a search on the subject would tell you.
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post #79 of 117
8/21/08 at 8:16am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

"haven't seen anything where someone who is actually important to the shot is cut off in such a way."

Doug have you done a side by side with the pal one? do you own the pal
one? or are you going by the beaver DVD page,
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post #80 of 117
8/21/08 at 2:31pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Neski
"haven't seen anything where someone who is actually important to the shot is cut off in such a way."

Doug have you done a side by side with the pal one? do you own the pal
one? or are you going by the beaver DVD page,

I don't have any way of watching a PAL disc. I'm just going by the screen shots that I have seen, which I assume most everyone else here is as well. Do you own the new version?

Doug
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post #81 of 117
8/21/08 at 4:01pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

"Do you own the new version? "

If you are talking BR ,I don't, But I do have Both The Pal Versions and the Criteron and
did a side by side comparison,and found that are a bunch of shots of groups
of actors in a full 2.35:1 shot,where storrao has to crop 30% of the Picture
some get cut ,not to mention the sets and locations
some shots look the same in terms of design
But the criteron one has three actors where their are four in the shot in
the pal version,While the Pal version is a bit too yellow,I found by using the
controls on my TV ,I could fix it,The French Pal Box is 5.1 too.

While the Cropping is more of a problem with AN.becuse so much is in every frame.
its still makes this set
a real disappointment,and same goes for the BR,why can't they cancel This BR and do "The Spiders Stratagem which isn't out
on DVD and would make a perfect Blue Ray
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post #82 of 117
8/21/08 at 4:08pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
The reason 2:1 prints weren't made for theatres is simple: too much for the lab to screw up. When you're centering a 1.33:1 image in a 1.85:1 frame, whether or not it's perfectly centred is a moot point. Part of the reason that Superscope (the godfather of Super 35) switched from 2:1 to 2.35:1 was that the image was off-centre in theatres set up for CinemaScope and this is much more noticeable with small side bars than wide ones, as counterintuitive as that may sound. Granted, they could have put narrow bars on both sides, but that's putting a lot of power in the labs' hands.

Except in the case of TLE, they would've also needed the lab to know exactly how/when/etc to pan-and-scan the 2:1 frame judging from the various screen caps.

IOW, no need for said screw-ups. The film was simply *not* intended to be projected at 2:1 unless they were going to apply all the panning-and-scanning, etc. into the master for the dupes. And if they had actually done that, how would the labs screw up the "centering"? OR did I misunderstand what you meant (or how the process actually works)?

_Man_
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post #83 of 117
8/21/08 at 7:05pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Neski
"Do you own the new version? "

If you are talking BR ,I don't, But I do have Both The Pal Versions and the Criteron and
did a side by side comparison,and found that are a bunch of shots of groups
of actors in a full 2.35:1 shot,where storrao has to crop 30% of the Picture
some get cut ,not to mention the sets and locations
some shots look the same in terms of design
But the criteron one has three actors where their are four in the shot in
the pal version,While the Pal version is a bit too yellow,I found by using the
controls on my TV ,I could fix it,The French Pal Box is 5.1 too.

While the Cropping is more of a problem with AN.becuse so much is in every frame.
its still makes this set
a real disappointment,and same goes for the BR,why can't they cancel This BR and do "The Spiders Stratagem which isn't out
on DVD and would make a perfect Blue Ray

Well obviously SOMETHING is going to get cut. But really are the actors that are getting cut out of the scene really important to the scene, IE are they speaking? Or are they set dressing?

I'm not saying that I like the idea of cropping even an extra out of a shot, but the question I'm asking is is that actor really essential to the over all plot?

Doug
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post #84 of 117
8/21/08 at 7:29pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

The Korean release of the theatrical cut was the same transfer as the European disc but is NTSC and Region 0. Unfortunately I think its long out of print.
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post #85 of 117
8/21/08 at 7:38pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Neski
...I do have Both The Pal Versions and the Criteron and
did a side by side comparison,and found that are a bunch of shots of groups
of actors in a full 2.35:1 shot,where storrao has to crop 30% of the Picture
...

2:1 is 83.33333333% of a 2.4:1 image, so less than 17% is being cropped, not "30%".

Also, THE LAST EMPORER undoubtedly WAS filmed at least with the knowledge that cropped 2.2:1 70mm blow-up prints would be made, and obviously would have been framed for that at the very least. In that case, it's less than 10% of the 2.2:1 frame that's being cropped for a 2:1 video presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
I suppose a search on the subject would tell you.

I couldn't find any complaints regarding the reframing of SEVEN on this site. Maybe there are some burried in some of the threads, but I think I can safely say they couldn't have been as vitriolic as some of the attacks on Mr. Storaro have been around these parts.

Vincent
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post #86 of 117
8/21/08 at 8:00pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P
I couldn't find any complaints regarding the reframing of SEVEN on this site. Maybe there are some burried in some of the threads, but I think I can safely say they couldn't have been as vitriolic as some of the attacks on Mr. Storaro have been around these parts.

Then maybe you should start such a thread. I'm not sure I see how a discussion of that film is pertinent here.

I also take exception to your use of "vitriolic" to describe the remarks made about Vittorio Storaro in this thread. To the contrary, I'm finding this a rather restrained discussion of the topic of two filmmakers changing the presentation of their award-winning film from it's theatrical release to the latest home-release.

It seems the sides of the discussion here are pretty clear: the HTF is a forum built around the idea of trying to get a home viewing experience as close to theater-like as possible (hence, a disappointment for many that this film is not being presented in its OAR); with the other side being that the two main creative forces behind the film are responsible for that change (hence, the discussion about what their motivations could possible be prompting the change to the image).
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post #87 of 117
8/22/08 at 9:45am

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Oh, there's plenty of vitriol in this thread, no doubt. But I don't think it's necessarily unjustified!
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post #88 of 117
8/22/08 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman
Oh, there's plenty of vitriol in this thread, no doubt. But I don't think it's necessarily unjustified!

My judgment must be clouded because I think the action is so egregious!
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post #89 of 117
8/22/08 at 2:19pm

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
Then maybe you should start such a thread. I'm not sure I see how a discussion of that film is pertinent here.

Exactly. Bringing some other films and "examples" to this thread is not relevant. This is about "TLE" - and "TLE" only.

Then again I don´t really see, that this thread would really go anywhere. Some people feel, that Storaro has the right to alter his (well, DOP point-of-view) film and some feel, that he should leave the award-winning OAR alone.

And since Criterion is releasing the film in 2.00:1, I guess only the "other side" will be happy.

So what´s the point?
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post #90 of 117
8/22/08 at 2:53pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
So what´s the point?

Well, Jari, for me the point has been to learn a lot about the "why."

I don't know nearly as much about filmmaking as many of the people on this board so this thread and the other TLE threads (surrounding Criterion's SD release) has been a real education for me.

Now even though I still don't have the knowledge of many others, I have formed the opinion that I would like to have a beautifully restored version of TLE in a 2.35:1 AR.

Maybe by discussing it word will reach someone that maybe more money could be made by releasing such a version down the road.

I also think it's healthy to have a discussion on these things when they happen to remind our own community what we are about here at the HTF and maybe be educating others about OAR and the myriad, complicated issues that arise when transferring motion pictures to home media.
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